Speaker 1: And then I feel really alone with everything that I do.

Speaker 1: I have no money.

Speaker 1: I'm a son of an alcoholic.

Speaker 2: I don't know.

Speaker 1: Successful relationships.

Speaker 1: I don't know.

Speaker 1: Let me be truthful to you.

Speaker 1: Did you get hurt too?

Speaker 1: You come here to me.

Speaker 1: Welcome back, come here to me, viewers, listeners.

Speaker 1: It's Figs here.

Speaker 2: And Karen.

Speaker 1: Good to see you, Karen.

Speaker 1: I was going to say see everybody, but I cannot see anyone other than you.

Speaker 2: Good to see you.

Speaker 1: So I had a question recently from a client.

Speaker 1: I'm not sure you can help me, like, frame this, Karen, well, about what do you do when you're being triggered repeatedly in your relationship in a way that feels very similar to how you are?

Speaker 1: You were mistreated slash abused, not loved the way you needed to be when you were a kid.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Like, how do you know when to be empathic towards your partner?

Speaker 1: They must be talking to me this particular way or acting in this particular way that certainly seems to be similar to how I was treated as a kid, if not the same.

Speaker 1: How do you know when you should work the system like, you know, like we do, right?

Speaker 1: Like, and understand where the person's coming from.

Speaker 1: How are they hurting that they're talking that way?

Speaker 1: And what's the impact on me?

Speaker 1: And how am I seeing them?

Speaker 1: How do you know when you should work the system versus this isn't right for me?

Speaker 1: And I have a right to choose to say no and not accept this behavior that I'm experiencing as being really harmful for me.

Speaker 2: Right.

Speaker 1: Is that a good way to frame the question?

Speaker 2: Yeah, I think so.

Speaker 2: Like, where is the line between I can have empathy for this because I understand where it's coming from in them, their insecurity, their wounds, their pain, their triggers versus this is unacceptable as a way for me to be treated.

Speaker 2: And I've made a decision that I can't be in this relationship anymore because I'm not willing to be totally whatever.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: How do you make that decision?

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: So one thing you were saying, Karen, that I just before, like in the green room, the digital green room, right?

Speaker 1: Like, I like what you're saying about you feel everybody has the right to make that determination for themselves first.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 2: For sure.

Speaker 1: Say more about that.

Speaker 1: What you mean?

Speaker 2: Well, I just think that everybody has got their own personal red line of like, this is not acceptable to me.

Speaker 2: I'm not willing to be treated this way.

Speaker 2: This is too painful.

Speaker 2: This doesn't feel good.

Speaker 2: I just don't like it.

Speaker 2: I just don't like it.

Speaker 2: And I don't want to be in this relationship.

Speaker 2: And I feel like as a clinician, it's our job to hold and teach the whole cycle of what's happening and help people understand all the layers of what's going on.

Speaker 2: But ultimately, it's their job to know if it's a yes or no inside for them and that we need to respect their yes or their no at whatever point they may come to it.

Speaker 1: Absolutely.

Speaker 1: I couldn't agree with you more.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: I couldn't agree to more.

Speaker 1: And of course.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: And in an ideal world, minus certain circumstances, right?

Speaker 1: Like, look, if there is domestic violence or a huge risk of domestic violence, if like the degree to which you're feeling traumatized is so beyond your window of tolerance that you cannot function.

Speaker 1: Like for sure, you got to do what you got to do to look after yourself, protect yourself, make the right decision for you.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: So let's be clear.

Speaker 1: Absolutely.

Speaker 1: Now, let's say that somehow we're not in those circumstances that, look, studying what's happening in our relationship for us together and both of us individually is just not viable because of how painful it is right now to second.

Speaker 1: In an ideal world, we would be able to help a couple study, be curious about what is it that is happening inside of me?

Speaker 1: Just almost by definition, if I'm this triggered by your behavior today, on some level, the past is merging with the present for me.

Speaker 1: It's like, you know, it's merging with the way I was hurt in the past.

Speaker 1: So I'm not only feeling threatened because of what you're doing and saying right now, there's some multiplier effect happening that I have all the wounding from my past inside me.

Speaker 1: And so the degree to which I see you as a threatening person is this mixture of the way you are actually threatening right now mixed with the way I was in the company of someone really, really threatening when I was little or in my last relationship or in high school or whatever it is.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: And then, of course, the same is true for the other person, that the degree to which they seem like in this case, let's say angry or mad or hot fused.

Speaker 1: The degree to which they're doing that has something to do with the present moment, some present moment trigger, but also has a lot to do with the way they were in the presence earlier in their life with not being met the way they long to be.

Speaker 1: That was really difficult and traumatizing for them.

Speaker 1: So their reaction to this present moment issue is being magnified, multiplied by the past even more than the present moment.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: In an ideal world, we could hold the couple's level of traumatic activation and need to do something.

Speaker 1: I have to say no or I have to just surrender.

Speaker 1: I have to just placate.

Speaker 1: I have to fight for my life.

Speaker 1: In an ideal world, we could carve out a safe space and hold the walls of that safe space to do that study.

Speaker 1: And to your point, Karen, like, yeah, listen, that each individual needs to like has the right to say study smutty.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Like, no, I don't care.

Speaker 1: It just doesn't work for me.

Speaker 1: No.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: It's great.

Speaker 1: I like that.

Speaker 1: And by the way, if I can add to it, here's the way I think about this.

Speaker 1: And I don't know if this is the right like technical psychological language.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: And I think that there are two primary developmental steps that need to be able to happen for someone in love and relationship.

Speaker 1: And let's say, like, if I was with as a child, I'm with a parent that was having huge, big reactions, angry reactions.

Speaker 1: And it's not like I could say no.

Speaker 1: They would have probably been more angry with me and I wouldn't have gotten dinner.

Speaker 1: Like, I still have to sleep there for the next, like, 14 years of my life.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Like, finding my no, asserting my no was not an option.

Speaker 2: Right.

Speaker 1: And that got incorporated into my whole personality that I can't say no when someone is angry.

Speaker 1: At some point in that person's life, now that they've grown up, before they're going to be able to be in a loving relationship that they don't have to say no or don't have to just placate, they're going to have to find their no.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: In a particular relationship.

Speaker 1: The second one is at some point in their life, they're going to be with someone and like, look, I'm getting scared in the same way as I used to be scared before when I was a kid.

Speaker 1: But for flip sake, I don't want to have to just placate or say no.

Speaker 1: I want to be able to stay in a relationship, even though it's scary and traumatizing for me.

Speaker 1: But I'm with someone that like I can tell them and they can care about my feelings.

Speaker 1: And I do get scared a little bit because they get mad.

Speaker 1: They stomp their toe and they go, for fuck's sake, my bloody toe is sore.

Speaker 1: And I go, oh, Jesus, no, it's happening again.

Speaker 1: But I tell them and they go, look, I get it.

Speaker 1: I can see how I scared you.

Speaker 1: And then I'm able to say, look, I understand you can't even like stomp your toe without me being terrified that the worst going to happen again.

Speaker 1: And they hold each other and kiss each other in the kitchen.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: So I want them to be able to find their no.

Speaker 1: But I also one day hope they can live in a relationship where they will get scared.

Speaker 1: It is going to look like it's all happening again.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: So in the particular case, you know, that came up.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Look, I don't know if like it like I agree with you.

Speaker 1: If someone has to be able to say they're no.

Speaker 1: And then my hope is one day that opens up the possibility for them either with this partner or in a future relationship that they can live inside a relationship that isn't perfectly safe.

Speaker 1: Because I don't know if perfectly safe is an available outcome in love for someone that's gotten really hurt in the past.

Speaker 2: But that doesn't that doesn't fully acknowledge what I think part of this person's question was, which is, what's the degree of severity that somebody who's in their wound is allowed to inflict upon their partner?

Speaker 2: And then you have to sort of take it within the frame of like, oh, they're doing it because they're hurt and because they're wounded.

Speaker 2: And if you guys could get into the safe space, you could understand why they're behaving in this way.

Speaker 1: Well, look, yeah.

Speaker 1: But but here's the thing, right?

Speaker 1: Here's the thing about that.

Speaker 1: Let's again reiterate domestic violence, risk of domestic violence, blocking exits, like using your voice to a point that it's frightening someone else.

Speaker 1: They're not acceptable.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: There are some things that are just definitively not accepted.

Speaker 1: Coercing people, controlling people with financially like there are things that are definitively under any like I was going to say, making people do weigh ins to control their weight.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: There are things that are definitively just not acceptable.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Definitively not acceptable.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Under any circumstances.

Speaker 1: Like and it wouldn't be safe to study your system if there's domestic violence or a risk of domestic violence.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: The truth of the matter is it's not an isolated thing.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: It's never an isolated thing.

Speaker 1: So let's say that somebody hits a place of frustration where they yell.

Speaker 1: They don't they don't like threatened to hit someone.

Speaker 1: They don't hit someone.

Speaker 1: They don't block exits.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: They're not coercing, but they do yell when they have felt a place inside them of being disempowered in their life and not being heard, not being considered.

Speaker 1: And when something in the present moment triggers that, it hurts really badly.

Speaker 1: They back in the disempowered, not respected, not seen, not heard.

Speaker 1: And what comes out is for fuck's sake.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: And that triggers in the second person, their partner.

Speaker 1: Oh, my God, I'm about to be in the place where there's I'm going to be on the receiving end of tremendous anger.

Speaker 1: That is enough of a memory of the tremendous anger I received.

Speaker 1: And it was so scary and so painful.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: That I have to fight, flight, freeze, placate.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: I got to survive.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: But the way I fight, flight, freeze, placate tells the first person your feeling of not being respected, of not being seen, of not being valued, that it's not okay for you to be hurt just got magnified.

Speaker 2: Right.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: It got magnified in an instant because they were hurting.

Speaker 1: And the reason they went, I for fuck's sake.

Speaker 1: And then the other person got scared and they go, look, look, look, please.

Speaker 1: Like, it's not that big of a deal.

Speaker 1: Well, you just told the other person, I get you're traumatized.

Speaker 1: It's valid.

Speaker 1: You told the other person it is not okay for you to ever feel not seen, not heard, not valued.

Speaker 1: And it's just not okay.

Speaker 1: So they're now re-traumatized, too.

Speaker 1: And so now they say, too, I for fuck's sake.

Speaker 1: They go, I for fuck's sake, I for fuck's sake.

Speaker 1: So the second person now is like, it really is happening again.

Speaker 1: I'm back with my angry father.

Speaker 1: This is completely unacceptable.

Speaker 1: And so now they tell the person you need to control your reactivity.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Well, now the first person is re-traumatized.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: They're re-traumatized.

Speaker 1: They're back in a place.

Speaker 1: They're like, I am completely powerless.

Speaker 1: I'm not allowed to have an experience.

Speaker 1: I'm not allowed to express.

Speaker 1: So this is the tragedy.

Speaker 1: Both those people are being re-traumatized.

Speaker 1: And both of those people are not being loved by each other.

Speaker 1: Look, everybody has the right not to study it.

Speaker 1: But please, God, I think most people could end up with the possibility of being able to navigate a path through with each other if we could somehow.

Speaker 1: And it's going to be messy.

Speaker 1: It's going to be messy because if I'm that woman, I will, for the rest of my life, every time a dish drops in the sink, I will be looking at my husband, right, in this case, and I'm going to be going, oh, Jesus, is he about to be angry.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: She's going to be scared for the rest of her life.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: But it's primarily what happened with her dad, not with this guy.

Speaker 1: And look, whatever happened to this fella that, like, he doesn't seem like, right, I'm heard, considered, I'm not valued, I'm never good enough.

Speaker 1: He's going to be re-triggered every time she goes, don't have an angry reaction.

Speaker 1: It's like, oh, my God.

Speaker 1: Like, so they're both inflicting what lands on the other person as trauma.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Now, let me say one last thing.

Speaker 1: And I know we've said this, but this is a more serious topic.

Speaker 1: Look, people are really trustworthy.

Speaker 1: If someone is hitting you in the face and you say this is not acceptable, your opinion is really trustworthy.

Speaker 1: If someone is blocking your exits when you have a fight because, no, we need to keep having this discussion and you come and you tell me that's not acceptable, your perspective is really trustworthy.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: But look, the other 90 percent, I don't want to put an actual percentage, of fights that couples are having in the relationship, each individual member of the couple's perception of what's actually happening between them, I'm sorry, and I know I'll get in trouble for this.

Speaker 1: Their individual perception from their first-person point of view is not very trustworthy.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: So we have 10 percent of the time, let's just use it where, look, yeah, you are being punched in the face.

Speaker 1: For God's sake, I would trust your perspective.

Speaker 1: This is not OK.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: But the other times where, like, look, my partner dropped a dish and they go, for God's sake, fucking bullshit, who put this dish there?

Speaker 1: And everyone in the family holds their breath and they're like, oh, my God, it's happened again.

Speaker 1: And then they go, like, don't be so angry.

Speaker 1: Like, it's just a dish.

Speaker 1: And then the person gets even more angry.

Speaker 1: I'm sorry.

Speaker 1: I don't trust that your perception of this present moment is trustworthy because I think it's being colored by so much trauma from the past.

Speaker 1: And if you could join me in that temporarily, we could get to a place that between you and your partner, we could heal not only this present moment for both of you, but actually go back and heal the pain for both of you when you were little from the past as well.

Speaker 1: And then have this beautiful path forward where two scared people could be together forever.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: There's my speech.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Tell me what comes up for you, Karen.

Speaker 2: Well, I mean, I think that's great.

Speaker 2: And I just, you know, just being a couples therapist and doing the work, realizing that that whole process from that place where they're terrifying each other to the place where they're, you know, loving each other forever is like, like you said, it can be very messy and it can take time and there can be setbacks.

Speaker 2: And that's just the reality of it.

Speaker 2: And there might be moments in there where you're going, I can't, I can't deal with this.

Speaker 2: And what I like about what you're saying is like, it's our job to hold both.

Speaker 2: Somebody's right to know what's true and what they need, but also this very, very strong frame and perspective that we come from with EFT, which is that there is a way forward.

Speaker 2: Even if two people are triggering each other so much that it feels impossible, that we can make it safe enough, at least in the therapy space for them to be able to get through that triggered reactivity to a more vulnerable place and be able to share what's really going on from there and have it be received and have that start to create a healing that's not possible for them otherwise.

Speaker 2: And to see each other as the wounded little boy and little girl inside that they really are.

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 1: Our wounded two little boys or two little girls.

Speaker 1: But in this case, right, the question is coming from like a man and a woman, a husband and wife.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Okay.

Speaker 1: But, okay.

Speaker 1: That's all true.

Speaker 1: And I love that.

Speaker 1: And the one thing I'd add, look, it's not just the safety in the therapy sessions.

Speaker 1: And I know you're saying this too, right?

Speaker 1: Like, look, I'm tracking the whole time.

Speaker 1: Like, he's got to be safe when the session ends.

Speaker 2: Right.

Speaker 2: And that's the message.

Speaker 2: That's what I'm talking about in terms of emptiness is like, as soon as the session ends, if they go back to having no safety and feeling like, you know, no, we can only be this way in therapy and outside of therapy, we're going to continue to talk to each other in this way that is really triggering and do the same moves that we've been doing that get us really escalated into the cycle.

Speaker 2: They're not going to get anywhere.

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 1: So, let me like, so let's just say like, here's how I would, let me just think through this.

Speaker 1: If I had a couple in front of me, and one of them has been really traumatized because they were on the receiving end of anger, violence, emotional, physical.

Speaker 1: And so now they get really scared when their husband is mad or angry in moments when they're experiencing trauma of not being heard, understood.

Speaker 1: Ideally, I'm going to be able to put it in the system and see how it's a system and it's both of them first.

Speaker 1: And that's going to seem insane to someone that lives in a world that just anger is not acceptable.

Speaker 1: And I can't accept like, there's just no way I've been so hurt around it.

Speaker 1: There is no way you could tell me angry reactions like that.

Speaker 1: I should be empathetic to that more than I should protect myself.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: So, I'm probably going to learn very quickly.

Speaker 1: In my ideal world, we'd be able to like create the safety that we could study the system.

Speaker 1: I just discovered we can't study the system.

Speaker 1: So, now I'm going to have to like get the buy-in like subtly of the partner that is Mr. Angry Pants in their spouse's mind that I'm going to have to just dive deeply in to being with, supporting, validating, empathizing with the one, the little girl.

Speaker 1: The big one that this is just not acceptable.

Speaker 1: Accept them.

Speaker 1: Validate them.

Speaker 1: And by doing that well enough, I'll get to meet the little girl that's still terrified living in their dad's house.

Speaker 1: She's still fucking living in the dad's house.

Speaker 1: She never left.

Speaker 1: And I'm going to get to be there and not validate the reactive one.

Speaker 1: This is not acceptable.

Speaker 1: There's no way it's acceptable.

Speaker 1: I need to say my no.

Speaker 1: And then I'll get to be with the little girl eventually because I'll have earned the right to be with her, which I wasn't earning when I'm trying to do the cycle because it's just like, are you crazy?

Speaker 1: You're asking me to take more of what I took as a kid when now I'm a grownup and I can say no.

Speaker 1: So, I'm going, okay.

Speaker 1: Cannot do the cycle right now.

Speaker 1: I got to dive deeply in with them and validate the reactive part.

Speaker 1: Their negative judgment.

Speaker 1: This is so unacceptable.

Speaker 1: And then I'll get to talk to the little girl in her little cubbyhole where she stays safe and I'll get to love her and care for her and validate her.

Speaker 1: Now, if no is still what she needs to say, I will support her and I will help her say no.

Speaker 1: And I'll help the other partner hear it because now that's what needs to emerge and that is what needed to emerge organically.

Speaker 2: Right.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: I will be fall in on helping because this is clearly what needs to happen.

Speaker 1: This person needs to say no.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: This has to happen.

Speaker 1: They have to say no.

Speaker 1: And this person needs to hear it.

Speaker 1: I'm going to help that person really hear it and empathize and love them and care for them.

Speaker 1: I'm going to try and walk them through that process.

Speaker 1: But there is this other possibility then that once we go through that process that they can share vulnerably, I just get really scared that they no longer need to say no.

Speaker 1: Or on the other side of saying no, this is a crazy thing, like sometimes when you say no to something, now that I've said no to something, I couldn't find my yes until I've said my no.

Speaker 2: Exactly.

Speaker 1: So, look, either way, so I agree with you a thousand percent, Karen, that I am going to support that person saying their no.

Speaker 1: Maybe the slight difference than I see with most therapists that I'm holding up a little circle.

Speaker 1: I see supporting someone say their no as just this small little circle inside of a much bigger circle.

Speaker 1: And that bigger circle is we're saying, you know, so that we can live in this bigger circle of I could be in a connected, safe relationship.

Speaker 1: And maybe even with this particular person, assuming you're not actually under like there's domestic violence or coercion.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: So, yeah.

Speaker 1: What's that like, Karen, to hear?

Speaker 2: Absolutely.

Speaker 2: No, I think you're 100 percent right.

Speaker 2: And I like that idea of being able to say your no and then allowing what's on the other side of that, because maybe on the other side of that, there's space for something else.

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 1: You know, and I have this gesture I do with couples when they break up with me.

Speaker 1: I look at my watch.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Because I guess, OK, so with market, we just moved into a new emotional world with each other.

Speaker 1: We were together, but not sure.

Speaker 1: And we just moved into we are not together.

Speaker 1: So, OK, 143 p.m. Pacific time.

Speaker 1: And let's see what it's like to breathe this air and live in this air.

Speaker 1: It might be exactly what you expected.

Speaker 1: And I may not.

Speaker 1: We'll see what it actually is like.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: And so this is the weird thing.

Speaker 1: Often people are like, well, we broke up.

Speaker 1: It's over.

Speaker 1: And I said, look, I'll see you next week.

Speaker 1: Let's see what it's actually like now that we're not together.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Now that I've said our no, let's see what it's like now.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Assuming it's not domestic violence or coercion and all these things.

Speaker 1: I always want to be again.

Speaker 1: Look, this is the tough part.

Speaker 1: Like, we want to be very careful.

Speaker 1: Trust your perspective if you're being really hurt.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: And at the same time, hopefully you can hold this new one's point of view.

Speaker 1: We're also not necessarily trustworthy as human beings as understanding what's happening because our past is coloring how we're experiencing the present.

Speaker 1: And the same is true of your partner.

Speaker 1: And, of course, anytime you get advice from someone, their past is coloring the advice they give you.

Speaker 1: And so what really frustrates me as a couples therapist, what I see, it is much easier for therapists to support people's no.

Speaker 1: Ask for your needs to be met.

Speaker 1: You deserve your needs to be met.

Speaker 1: If your needs aren't being met, you say no.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: That is such a dude.

Speaker 1: Everybody will love me forever if I do that.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: But we're not going to make their life better.

Speaker 1: So it it's it's tricky to say, hey, listen, I hear you and I support, you know, but I just want to like, are you OK?

Speaker 1: Just for a second.

Speaker 1: Are you sure some of what you're like?

Speaker 1: This isn't more the past than the present.

Speaker 1: Don't shoot me.

Speaker 1: I'm not sure if you're fully trustworthy.

Speaker 1: Like what you're experiencing right now isn't happening.

Speaker 1: Like, are you sure?

Speaker 1: Like, I know, like your house burned down as a kid and it looks to you like your house is burning down right now.

Speaker 1: Don't get me wrong.

Speaker 1: I see smoke.

Speaker 1: I don't see a house burning down.

Speaker 1: I don't shoot me.

Speaker 1: Is it worth at least exploring?

Speaker 1: It doesn't appear the house is burning right now.

Speaker 1: I think you're still experiencing the burnt house from childhood.

Speaker 1: Like both people.

Speaker 2: Right.

Speaker 1: Yes.

Speaker 1: Doing that with people takes courage because it's not what people want to do.

Speaker 2: Totally.

Speaker 2: Totally.

Speaker 2: It's not what people want to do.

Speaker 2: And also, I think that, you know, there's also someplace in the middle there where maybe you've been working with a couple for a long time and they've been trying to get through the injuries that have occurred in their relationship that they can't get over the attachment injuries.

Speaker 2: And they've been working through it.

Speaker 2: And you've done a lot of work with the childhood wounds of both parties.

Speaker 2: And they ultimately come to a place where one of them says, you know, I need, I need a break.

Speaker 2: I need to say I'm done at least for now.

Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 1: Like, look, we got it.

Speaker 1: Wow.

Speaker 1: What, what wonderful clarity, right?

Speaker 1: I mean, what, like if someone says that after we've explored all this and we've learned all this and then, and what a, what, what a trustworthy?

Speaker 1: No.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: That's it.

Speaker 1: That's my thing.

Speaker 1: Now that's a, no, I trust completely.

Speaker 1: Cause not only was it looked from my perspective, this is no, it's unacceptable, but now I also.

Speaker 1: Like really studied myself.

Speaker 1: The how much of my past is merging with the present.

Speaker 1: I understand what's happening for you.

Speaker 1: And it's not for me.

Speaker 2: And it might even be that it's unacceptable.

Speaker 2: It's not, it might not even be like, it might be just like, I can't open my heart to you anymore.

Speaker 2: It's just been too.

Speaker 1: Absolutely.

Speaker 1: But what, what a trustworthy for both people.

Speaker 1: Like, like to say, that's what I'm always like the best place to know whether it's a yes or a no is do this work, but my God, right?

Speaker 1: Like it, the work may be outside one or both people's window of tolerance and not the scale of our work.

Speaker 1: Is to just see if we can keep them inside.

Speaker 1: Like we can create, we can expand the window of tolerance so that we can do the work.

Speaker 2: Anybody that might not know.

Speaker 2: Cause, cause that is kind of like, oh yeah.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Like psycho battle.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 2: What to just say what that is.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: So.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: So being inside the window of tolerance, if you just imagine a scale, right.

Speaker 1: And on the, let's say the, the left-hand side of the scale here, right.

Speaker 1: Is.

Speaker 1: I am.

Speaker 1: I'm overregulated.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: And I, I can't be present to what's happening because what it's outside, what's happening is so outside my window of tolerance that I have to overregulate and kind of dissociate and disappear.

Speaker 1: And then the window of tolerance.

Speaker 1: So let's say zero to five is like, I have to disappear.

Speaker 1: And some people that's what they do when, when what's happening in the present moment is outside the window of tolerance.

Speaker 1: And let's say like, you know, five to 10 is I'm inside my window.

Speaker 1: What's happening is difficult, but I can stay present to it and be here and differentiate between the past and the present to some degree.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: And let's say then the other 10 to 15 on the scale is, oh my God, what's happening is too much.

Speaker 1: And I have to under regulate.

Speaker 1: I get angry.

Speaker 1: I shout, I yell.

Speaker 1: Like, you know, I stubbed my toe.

Speaker 1: I bite my own toenail.

Speaker 1: I can't do.

Speaker 1: Cause I'm.

Speaker 1: Flexible now.

Speaker 1: I wish.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: But.

Speaker 1: Oh my God.

Speaker 1: You can still do that.

Speaker 1: That's like, so I, I am, I've become super inflexible.

Speaker 1: Oh my God.

Speaker 1: That's amazing.

Speaker 1: You're like the Daniel Day Lewis of therapists are the Christie more.

Speaker 1: Remember that in my left foot.

Speaker 1: Oh.

Speaker 1: So, so look, so look, we want as a therapist, the skill, one of the big skills of the therapist, besides what we're doing, like it's obvious it was, we're trying to keep people in that five to 10 range.

Speaker 1: Like, and usually one member of a couple is dissociating.

Speaker 1: Is that a shiny ball over there?

Speaker 1: Cause that's what they have to do.

Speaker 1: Cause they can't tolerate it.

Speaker 1: And the other person is I'm losing my mind.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: And we're trying to get both of them inside.

Speaker 1: So one is like between zero to five and the other is between 10 to 15.

Speaker 1: When they're both traumatized and we're trying to see.

Speaker 1: Can we explore this inside of like five to 10.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Where you're both here and it's, it is activating, but not so much that you have to exit in the way you exit.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: And look, some, some people, because they, they experienced so much trauma and some relationships are so traumatizing.

Speaker 1: We just can't do the exploration inside of that window of tolerance.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: But I'm going to do my best to get them inside it.

Speaker 1: But if it's too dangerous that they could hurt themselves in each other, there's no way I'm going to try and keep, I'm not going to keep trying.

Speaker 1: We got to get them in individual therapy or like, like don't be, you, you just like, you can't do it.

Speaker 1: But if it's just they're really traumatized from the past, I just believe the ultimate thing that's going to heal them is they're going to be with a primary person again.

Speaker 1: And it looked like there was no way for me to be safe and I'm safe now.

Speaker 1: It looked like there was no way for me to be seen, but I'm seeing now.

Speaker 1: Like there's just so much good as possible.

Speaker 1: If we can navigate that unbelievably messy, difficult path.

Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2: And, and I think it just requires some degree of trust from the couple and the therapist that they can help you to do it.

Speaker 2: And that it's, it's going to take some time.

Speaker 2: It's not, it doesn't happen overnight.

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 1: And that's where, like, you know, in this particular case, right.

Speaker 1: You know, and I know they'll listen to the podcast.

Speaker 1: I.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Like I probably should have seen earlier, but, you know, I could see now I got to go get that little girl.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Like she's really now, oh my God, this process you're doing is going to lead me to be more hurt.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Like, so I've lost her at this moment.

Speaker 1: I've lost her trust that this could be a good thing right now.

Speaker 1: It just looks like this is going to get me more hurt.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 2: Right.

Speaker 1: So I got a little, maybe she's right.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Firstly, that's really important.

Speaker 1: I got to hear, tell me on, I believe you tell me, and then maybe I could earn her trust.

Speaker 1: If it's, if I, It should be trusted so that we could keep trying and seeing if we could make this work.

Speaker 2: Right.

Speaker 2: Cause there's some part of her that's saying to you, Hey, I don't feel safe.

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 1: And needs to be really, Hey, stop, stop the lights.

Speaker 1: Stop filming.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: You know, it's not like we're filming.

Speaker 1: But like, we got to address this before we move forward.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Absolutely.

Speaker 1: This is the thing we have to work on.

Speaker 1: And if at the end of that, like, like you got to support me, say no, like it's not my favorite thing to do, but I got to show, I got to put on my big boy pants and help someone say no to their spouse and here to help the spouse hear it.

Speaker 1: And again, that's, that's an over and over again thing too.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: It's not like, it's not, it's not pleasant, but that's what needs to happen for these people.

Speaker 1: That's what needs to happen.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 2: Cool.

Speaker 1: How much fun we have.

Speaker 1: As therapists.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: I think that's good.

Speaker 1: That's a good exploration.

Speaker 1: I'm trying to think that we'd leave anything out.

Speaker 2: No, I think we did.

Speaker 2: I think that was great.

Speaker 2: I just, I I'm a little distracted thinking about how I know that the, the image that stuff is going to create for this podcast is going to be me doing this.

Speaker 2: You're fun in your mouth.

Speaker 2: She's always looking for like a really like dramatic.

Speaker 2: Exactly.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: You, that was, that was a mistake.

Speaker 1: That's definitely the thumbnail is your foot in your mouth.

Speaker 2: Maybe I should make a better one.

Speaker 2: Me actually.

Speaker 1: Oh my God.

Speaker 1: I mean, come on.

Speaker 1: Like if I tried to do that, I would, I'd be in surgery for hip replacement.

Speaker 1: That's that's very impressive.

Speaker 1: By the way, Karen is holding her foot above her head for the listeners.

Speaker 1: But, but look good.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Good, good podcast for, I mean, for awesome, but for listeners.

Speaker 1: But I enjoyed it.

Speaker 1: Thank you, Karen.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 2: I think it's good to, I think that's a really good question that you, it is a great.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 2: And it's a really, it's one that's really important for us as therapists to keep in mind and, and to keep in mind that it's a, it's a struggle for, for clients when they're in a situation that feels really intense, that takes them out of their window of tolerance.

Speaker 2: A lot of the time.

Speaker 2: At what point.

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 2: Do I say a no and, and is it possible to say a no and then still actually find a way to move forward in the relationship?

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 1: And I definitely think there is in theory and then every individual case is unique.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: In theory.

Speaker 1: Absolutely.

Speaker 1: In fact, sometimes a run experiments where people let's, let's practice saying no, let's make it as real as possible.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: And let's, but, but look, let's sign off.

Speaker 1: Let's not get start doing our psycho babble again.

Speaker 1: And thank you listeners, viewers to be continued, to be continued.

‍