Speaker 1: There's no amount of money, there's no amount of power that will ever, ever make up for how unloved these kids are.

Speaker 1: Welcome back listeners, viewers, we're finally, finally back with another episode of the Come Here To Me podcast.

Speaker 1: And today it's myself, Figgs, and Karen Gordon.

Speaker 1: Welcome Karen.

Speaker 1: Good to see you.

Speaker 1: You're always doing these nonverbal acknowledgments.

Speaker 1: Oh, right.

Speaker 1: I forgot.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Some people are not watching.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: There's like, it's a podcast.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Sorry.

Speaker 1: Sorry.

Speaker 1: I was raising the roof.

Speaker 1: I liked your raising the roof.

Speaker 1: We had something we wanted to talk about today.

Speaker 1: Succession.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Cause you and I, right.

Speaker 1: We were kind of up to date, right.

Speaker 1: Every week with succession.

Speaker 1: Yes.

Speaker 1: And I got so obsessed with it this time around that I rewatched the entire series and I just love it so much.

Speaker 1: Me too.

Speaker 1: I love it so much.

Speaker 1: I want to watch it again also, but I don't know when that could possibly happen, but, but okay.

Speaker 1: So here's the thing about succession, I often harp on about the merits of all of HBO series and primarily because I think the HBO writers understand better than anyone that everything ultimately is about attachment.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: About emotional bonding.

Speaker 1: That's right.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Whether we're watching sci-fi like Westworld, The Leftovers, Game of Thrones, Deadwood, Boardwalk Empire, you know, The Y.

Speaker 1: Every one of these shows, ultimately there's one true thread through all of them that love and relationship, family is the most important thing.

Speaker 1: Always.

Speaker 1: Just the writing is so good because they have it steeped in emotional bonding significance, right?

Speaker 1: Every scene.

Speaker 1: That's right.

Speaker 1: Always has emotional bonding significance.

Speaker 1: And probably the show that this is most transparently true about is Succession.

Speaker 1: For sure.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: And so look, like if you haven't seen Succession, you're worried about us talking about it.

Speaker 1: I don't think we're going to give up any particular plot twists, right?

Speaker 1: But you know, you can turn off the podcast, right?

Speaker 1: But obviously the Succession story, the story about these four kids, these four unloved kids.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: They happen to have all the money in the world and access to power and influence, but they're still four unloved kids.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: With a patriarchal, abusive, volatile father.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: A patriarchal, abusive, volatile father, but let's just like for an attachment significance, just unavailable, right?

Speaker 1: Unavailable.

Speaker 1: But rejecting.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: On the one side of love, right?

Speaker 1: Not seeing them, not validating them, but also not on the other side of love, abandoning, literally not being there.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: But always dangling, always dangling this hope of, I will soon approve of you or accept you if you do this thing or sometime in the future and then invariably it doesn't happen.

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: And that's where like, you know, people are like, why do I keep getting into a bad relationship over and over again?

Speaker 1: Why do I keep trying?

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Because I didn't get the love then.

Speaker 1: I didn't get it as a kid.

Speaker 1: I'm still not getting it now.

Speaker 1: And the only way their organism becomes complete is they get that love now with their primary attachment figure.

Speaker 1: And for these four kids, their primary attachment figure is still their dad.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: They are not going to be lovable, worthy in the world without being loved by their dad.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: It's just nothing has changed.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: And that's what's so interesting about it is that more so than a lot of other families with adult children, because he's so powerful and it's all revolving around him and the company and this locus of power they are, that is their primary attachment figure in a way that's not true for a lot of other adults where they've actually moved on to partners as their primary attachment figure.

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 1: Yes.

Speaker 1: And the other thing it's worth naming or mentioning is partly why the dad as as clearly unloving, unavailable the dad is right.

Speaker 1: Logan Roy is in succession.

Speaker 1: Their mom was incapable of showing up as a loving, present, good enough attachment figure too.

Speaker 1: In fact, one of the big other revealing moments in I believe it was the last episode also when they go to her place in the Bahamas or something.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Wherever that tropical location is.

Speaker 1: And when she says that she hates the human eye.

Speaker 1: Oh, my God.

Speaker 1: I was I read so many articles where people were quoting that line.

Speaker 1: It was so interesting.

Speaker 1: What did she call it?

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: It's just it's like jelly.

Speaker 1: What she said.

Speaker 1: I forgot the exact quote.

Speaker 2: Right.

Speaker 1: Like it's a big floating jelly socket or something.

Speaker 1: But so when I think about that for a kid, right.

Speaker 1: Let's just say this woman who is the mother of these children.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: I don't know.

Speaker 1: I don't think she's the mother of calm.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: But she didn't like to make eye contact.

Speaker 1: I mean, the level of lack of availability their mother had to the point that she doesn't like eye contact.

Speaker 1: So this is what I just think is fascinating.

Speaker 1: And so many people like, you know, if I just make money, if I have a nice house, a car, everything's going to be OK.

Speaker 1: But look, there's no amount of money.

Speaker 1: There's no amount of power.

Speaker 1: There's no like position CEO of Waystar Enterprises, whatever it is, right, AT&T, Waystar, Royco.

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 1: That will ever, ever make up for how unloved these kids are.

Speaker 1: That's right.

Speaker 1: And then so there was this one scene you sent it to him.

Speaker 1: And I remember at the time during the episode bookmarking it in my own mind.

Speaker 1: So I'm glad, Karen, you sent me to scene where Khan, the eldest son, speaks a moment of clarity about what it's like emotionally to be him and how he survives in the world.

Speaker 1: Oh, man.

Speaker 1: And it's such a powerful it's such a powerful moment because it's so beautifully and potently written.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: But why don't you and I watch it together?

Speaker 1: OK.

Speaker 2: So how is it for you, fucking dad?

Speaker 2: Amazing.

Speaker 2: Just over too soon.

Speaker 2: I could have kept going.

Speaker 2: Wrong.

Speaker 2: We're kidding, man.

Speaker 2: Kidding.

Speaker 2: No, I know.

Speaker 2: It's fine.

Speaker 2: It's cool.

Speaker 2: OK, I'm going home.

Speaker 2: Well, I'm sure she'll be in touch, Khan.

Speaker 2: You know what?

Speaker 2: It's fine.

Speaker 2: Really?

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 2: The good thing about having a family that doesn't love you is you learn to live without it.

Speaker 2: What?

Speaker 2: You're all chasing after dad saying, oh, love me, please love me.

Speaker 2: I need love.

Speaker 2: I need attention.

Speaker 2: I think that's the opposite of what just happened.

Speaker 2: You're needy love sponges.

Speaker 2: And I'm a plant that grows on rocks and lives off insects that die inside of me.

Speaker 2: Jesus Christ.

Speaker 2: If Willa doesn't come back, that's fine, because I don't need love.

Speaker 2: It's like a superpower.

Speaker 2: And if she comes back and doesn't love me, that's OK, too, because I don't need it.

Speaker 2: Oof.

Speaker 2: Thanks for the party.

Speaker 1: You're welcome.

Speaker 2: Oof.

Speaker 2: That gives me chills.

Speaker 1: Yeah, it's brutal, right?

Speaker 1: So tell me, why did you send that to me, say it's the saddest, you know, scene in TV history, Karen?

Speaker 1: Because it's like this is the consequence of a grown man who never received love in three sentences.

Speaker 1: And he he says it so powerfully.

Speaker 1: And it's just like a mic drop moment where you're like, oh, my God, this is what happens to somebody who does not.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: What are the three sentences in particular?

Speaker 1: You're all needy love sponges.

Speaker 1: And I'm a plant that grows on rocks and lives off insects that die inside me.

Speaker 1: If Willa doesn't come back, it's fine, because I don't need love.

Speaker 1: It's like a superpower.

Speaker 1: That's his fiance.

Speaker 1: It's so sad, right?

Speaker 1: It's so painful.

Speaker 1: But the thing that interests me, firstly, I want to talk in terms of our society, the world that we're living in, that the writers and the creators of Succession see the world in a very different light.

Speaker 1: In a very similar way to you and I, Karen.

Speaker 1: And we know this, right?

Speaker 1: Because the music is really sad and poignant.

Speaker 2: Right.

Speaker 1: So you just think about the words and then notice the music.

Speaker 1: The music is unbelievably sad and heartbreaking.

Speaker 1: So we're cued up that what Cam, this eldest son, says, this is a reveal of his broken heart.

Speaker 1: He says it's a superpower, but the show creators tell us that defense mechanism, that character strategy, that I don't need love, it's a superpower, is the doorway into his broken heart where he actually needs the most love and care.

Speaker 1: Oh, I know.

Speaker 1: It's so sad.

Speaker 1: But just think about that.

Speaker 1: I think this is really important.

Speaker 1: And this is where the big divide in our culture, in my opinion, stands.

Speaker 1: Look, we love that show, Left Coasters, New Yorker, PBS, a tote bag carrying people.

Speaker 1: But let's say that scene was produced by Andrew Tate.

Speaker 2: I don't know.

Speaker 1: The Sigma male hero.

Speaker 1: And I want to explain what a Sigma male is.

Speaker 1: That exact same scene.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: So there's this other swath of our society right now that would hear what Khan says, that I don't need love.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: I live on insects that die inside me.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: It's a superpower.

Speaker 1: The music playing would be the theme song to Star Wars.

Speaker 1: Or Superman.

Speaker 2: If Willa doesn't come back, that's fine.

Speaker 2: Because I don't need love.

Speaker 2: It's a superpower.

Speaker 2: And if she comes back and doesn't love me, that's okay, too.

Speaker 2: Because I don't need it.

Speaker 1: Thanks for the party.

Speaker 1: This is a statement to be proud of.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: That's right.

Speaker 1: This character strategy that I have developed and nurtured and I deploy it into the world would relish and pride.

Speaker 1: I don't need love.

Speaker 1: I don't need love.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: They see it as a strength rather than a sign of heartbreak.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: And this is where it's worth looking at the triangle of the socio-sexual hierarchy with men.

Speaker 1: The alpha male at the top and the beta male underneath that.

Speaker 1: But there's this new concept of the sigma male.

Speaker 1: And the sigma male is someone, a man, that does not play the game anymore.

Speaker 1: They stand at the same level in the hierarchy as the alpha male.

Speaker 1: But they just don't care.

Speaker 1: And they don't need love.

Speaker 1: They just look after themselves.

Speaker 1: They go to the gym at four in the morning.

Speaker 1: If someone asked them for a date, they'd go, I ain't missing my workout.

Speaker 1: I'm making money so I can buy my Lambo.

Speaker 1: I'm just like proud.

Speaker 1: Like so proud.

Speaker 1: So there's a bunch of people that are actively playing out the character strategy of being a sigma male.

Speaker 1: Being calm in that scene, but it's not heartbreaking.

Speaker 1: It's like, be like me.

Speaker 1: And there's a whole bunch of young men right now in our world, our society, that this message is really compelling.

Speaker 1: That I could make myself impervious to emotional pain and attachment, longing, and be stronger than life and be proud of the way I don't need anybody.

Speaker 1: So we have this whole generation of men that their hearts are broken.

Speaker 1: And they're leaning into the way in which they are trying to make themselves impervious to pain.

Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right.

Speaker 1: They're identifying with the protective strategy rather than the wound underneath.

Speaker 1: Which, by the way, you know, look, some of that is just age appropriate.

Speaker 1: I look at development as a human being as like a funnel.

Speaker 1: We all end up at the top part of the funnel.

Speaker 1: We are like everybody comes into the world.

Speaker 1: We get betrayed.

Speaker 1: One of our parents was an alcoholic.

Speaker 1: Our parents divorced.

Speaker 1: I had a learning disability.

Speaker 1: I was missing a limb.

Speaker 1: We all end up like, you know, being betrayed.

Speaker 1: I'm a man and I'm five foot two.

Speaker 1: I'm a woman and I'm seven foot two.

Speaker 1: Everybody has some like emotional betrayal that they have to overcome.

Speaker 1: And the first way we overcome it is with a character strategy.

Speaker 1: So we move away from the one that's really hurting by this betrayal.

Speaker 1: And we create this secondary creation that can rise above the way it hurts.

Speaker 1: And so, like, for example, with calm being the one that's impervious to pain and it's a superpower is a brilliant and valid strategy to actually not feel the pain of not being loved.

Speaker 1: Well done.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: But one hopes that it's a temporary thing for some period of life.

Speaker 1: And that, let's say, by one's, you know, like, chronologically speaking, let's say, like, 30s, 40s, 50s at the latest, you have some moment where you go, you know what?

Speaker 1: This way that I'm protecting myself and loving the way I protect myself for a man like this whole I'm going to be a Sigma male and I don't really care about emotional bonding.

Speaker 1: I'm just going to take what I can from the world.

Speaker 1: I don't know if that strategy really serves me.

Speaker 1: And then I do the work to go back and collect the one that was hurt originally, the not loved one, let them have their vulnerability and their pain and love that part of myself and then dare to give someone else an opportunity to love that part of me.

Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, that's yeah, that's the beautiful goal.

Speaker 1: And I think in a situation like succession in that culture that they all existed in, there's there's no motivation or availability for that kind of choice.

Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1: So these kids are not they're completely committed.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: The three kids are committed to trying to win their dad's approval.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: I'll get him to love me.

Speaker 1: And Khan is committed to living a life without love.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: So they haven't had that transition from I'm just in complete unconscious character strategy to survive my wounding to I'm actually going to actually work on loving and caring for the for the one that got hurt before I became this character that is really only here to make sure I don't feel my deepest pain.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: But that's what I was saying.

Speaker 1: It's like a funnel.

Speaker 1: So I don't know.

Speaker 1: The goal is if we're going to move from I think it's Robert Bly's book, a sibling society, right, a society where no one is reaching true adulthood to where we actually have true wise adults, because we have to have a sizable portion of our population stop believing they are their character strategies and seeing their character strategies for what they are.

Speaker 1: They're just how I protect the vulnerable one and that they'll do the work to actually allow themselves to be vulnerable ones in the world, love themselves and give other people an opportunity to love their vulnerable self.

Speaker 1: Because on the other side of that are grown ups, adults that can give open heartedly to the next generation.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: That's where real leadership.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: And real generosity to the world is born out of.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Well said.

Speaker 1: Sibling society.

Speaker 1: We have all these people stuck in their character strategies and they really believe it.

Speaker 1: And so they're trying to make money.

Speaker 1: They're trying to like whether it's like get validation through sex or being really tough and being proud of the way they can like no one's going to take advantage of me.

Speaker 1: And it's just really sad.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: And of course, our succession filmmakers, they know it's really sad because they and they cue us with the sad music.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: I thought the show was really, really poignant for for kind of showing that difference and how one half of the country sees.

Speaker 1: Oh, look how sad.

Speaker 1: And then we have another half of the country that goes good for you, Con.

Speaker 2: Mm hmm.

Speaker 1: You don't need love.

Speaker 1: You be tough.

Speaker 1: You protect yourself.

Speaker 1: And probably there's a lot of people who watch that show.

Speaker 1: And there's somewhere in between where those lines might have just gone right over someone's head.

Speaker 1: Like it didn't really register for them because of the work that we do.

Speaker 1: We're always tracking for attachment significance.

Speaker 1: But, you know, a lot of people aren't.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: And it depends where you are in life.

Speaker 1: Like I was just thinking about, look, in my 20s and 30s, early 30s, like I was completely enamored with my character strategies.

Speaker 1: I love the way I avoided my vulnerability.

Speaker 1: Like I was very proud of, you know, my ability to verbally tear someone apart or fight to defend myself or, you know, being seeking validation through like sex and intimacy.

Speaker 1: Like I love those parts of myself.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: You know, delighted with myself.

Speaker 1: So some of these things are like they're age appropriate.

Speaker 1: That's I want to be clear on my part.

Speaker 1: There's no judgments of young men that are really enamored with the Andrew Tate's of the world.

Speaker 1: I'm just fingers crossed.

Speaker 1: It is a stage in their development to becoming a truly generative human being later in their life that you don't get stuck there.

Speaker 1: And we've talked about this in the New Age left.

Speaker 1: It's not that dissimilar to the, you know, the Burning Man, like the man in his 60s that still has chaps with his bum hanging out going to the desert every August.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Where he got stuck in the Puerh, the Peter Pan.

Speaker 1: He didn't manage to make it into that next tiny part of the funnel that he's a true grown up that is actually generating value for our culture, society.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Most importantly, the next generation.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: I want to talk about another scene from the show, because I think there I mean, there's so many parts of it that are valid and interesting as couples, therapists and attachment therapists.

Speaker 1: You know, there's a scene, I forget which season it is, where Logan goes swimming when they go to visit Connor's ranch in New Mexico at the very end.

Speaker 1: And so they show him with his shirt off his back and he's got all these scars from what seems like he had been whipped all up and down his back.

Speaker 1: And it's just this quiet, like nobody ever says anything about it or acknowledges it, but you see it.

Speaker 1: And it tells you so much about the pain that he experienced and how he became the man that he is and his strategies and why he chose to become somebody who will never back down and is always looking for power and will never show vulnerability and will never say sorry.

Speaker 1: And they give these little clues throughout the whole show of his history, just little really subtle ones that you get to see that.

Speaker 1: Yeah, it's amazing, right, just to see, again, this character, right, Logan Roy, and I say the character, obviously he's a character in the show, but the character that he has become that is so fierce, right, and misanthrope, let's say, right, you know, and fiercely competitive.

Speaker 1: Again, it's a secondary creation.

Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1: And I think it's the second to last episode in his funeral where his brother is talking, and he talks about how, when he got back from boarding school, and he had some sickness that he came home with his younger sister, and she ended up dying and that he always blamed himself.

Speaker 1: So these ways that somebody gets damaged, and they use their character that they become to protect themselves, and then how that character, if they never learn to move through to that adulthood that you're talking about, that they then created in the next generation, they create a whole other generation of people who are not securely attached and who are broken.

Speaker 2: Broken.

Speaker 1: His kids are broken.

Speaker 1: He was broken as a kid, right, being beaten, let's say, you know, the scars on his back, right, that he was beaten.

Speaker 1: And, you know, how does a kid make sense of the world where not only was I not loved by my mom and or dad, but I was beaten, right, to the point where I have scars on my body.

Speaker 1: And then, like, how does a kid internalize, what do they do to survive where they feel they are responsible for the death of their sister?

Speaker 1: We know one thing that they do is they become a Logan Roy.

Speaker 2: Exactly.

Speaker 1: They become that character to survive, because to really feel the depth of that unlovedness, right, to really feel that, to really feel the depth of I'm the one who caused my sister to die is so unbearable that becoming Logan Roy seems like a better option.

Speaker 1: But then it's you made a deal with the devil, right, because your life is miserable.

Speaker 1: And like, there's no there's no way out.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: It's not going to get better.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: You're just constantly running away from your pain.

Speaker 1: And then on top of that, it gets compounded by the people that love you and care for you.

Speaker 2: Right.

Speaker 1: They all end up getting hurt and catch, inherit your your wounding.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: And you never actually learn how to love.

Speaker 1: You can have all the money and all the power, but he doesn't have any truly loving relationships in his life because he doesn't have the capacity.

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 1: And so, Logan, that's what we do.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: We are conduits.

Speaker 1: There's a there's a room, right, virtual for us online that we're sitting waiting for people where they got hurt.

Speaker 1: And with a couple, both of them got hurt.

Speaker 1: They became characters.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Versions of themselves that have learned to survive.

Speaker 1: Well done.

Speaker 1: Then their character strategy, they they realize I shit.

Speaker 1: My character strategy is getting me in trouble.

Speaker 1: It's limiting my ability to have good relationships with other people.

Speaker 1: Whether that's relationship, coworkers, friends.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: I'm suffering, not feeling much better.

Speaker 1: And then we're sitting in some room waiting.

Speaker 1: Go here.

Speaker 1: Here's the deal.

Speaker 1: Here's what we probably need to do.

Speaker 1: We need to time travel.

Speaker 1: Go back to the one that was here before you became this character.

Speaker 1: Dare to feel the pain that they actually went through.

Speaker 1: And this time it's going to be different because you're going to be there as a grown up.

Speaker 1: You're going to time travel back into that childhood room and we're going to help you love the one that got hurt back then.

Speaker 1: And I'm going to tell you what, if you can't do it, I'm going to love the shit out of that one that got hurt back then for you model doing that.

Speaker 1: And then we'll see if you could somehow actually now move forward out of this room that you're going to love that one inside you got hurt all those years ago.

Speaker 1: And by giving me a chance to love that part of you, you will then be able to let your spouse, your partner, your kids love that part of you.

Speaker 1: And you're going to be better at being the one that your spouse, your partner and your kids really need you to be.

Speaker 1: And then we do that, you know, the fist bump, we say goodbye.

Speaker 1: And you know, we just just just changed a whole family tree.

Speaker 1: Yeah, if we succeed.

Speaker 1: Yep.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: What better thing to try and succeed at?

Speaker 1: Exactly, exactly.

Speaker 1: That's what I love about, like you were saying earlier about this show so much is that on its face, it's a show about a, you know, a media mogul and a rich family and corporate shenanigans, but it has so much depth and attachment significance.

Speaker 1: And it just tells such a powerful story of what happens when we don't get love.

Speaker 1: I know.

Speaker 1: It's so powerful.

Speaker 1: It's so good to illustrate.

Speaker 1: Yeah, just the heartbreak and the multi generational heartbreak, right?

Speaker 1: The way the trauma is passed from generation to generation to generation.

Speaker 1: And that's, you know, as cheesy as it sounds, the work you do today to heal your attachment or emotional bonding trauma and to love the one inside you that got hurt all those years ago, and to give the people that love you now a chance to be there for that part of you.

Speaker 1: You do for seven generations back, all your ancestors are in the stands watching, cheering you on, please free us, free us of this pain that we've been passing down.

Speaker 1: And seven generations into the future, they're all waiting going, please, please, please don't make us be burdened by this pain that has just been passed on to us when we come into being.

Speaker 1: So, again, I don't know what's more important work to do, right?

Speaker 1: If you're lucky enough that you don't have to stress every day about how am I going to put a roof over my head and how am I going to eat, then, you know, it almost should be an obligation to do this work, right?

Speaker 1: If you're privileged enough that I am not stressed today about feeding myself and putting a roof over my head, I don't know if there's anything more important to do than to heal your emotional bonding wounding so that you can be a force for good and light and a positive contributor to the world.

Speaker 1: How fricking will you?

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: You know, easy for me to say, right?

Speaker 1: But, you know, that's what I do all day long, right?

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: The last thing I was going to say, by the way, just as a therapist, again, the filmmakers are the succession producers.

Speaker 1: They make it really easy to see because they put the sad music in.

Speaker 1: But here's what I would encourage you to do listeners, viewers in your own life.

Speaker 1: No one's going to put the sad music soundtrack in for you.

Speaker 1: You're going to be talking to your friend or your spouse or hopefully you hear yourself talk and you will.

Speaker 1: Let's say your best friend says, I don't want to go for lunch with you on Wednesdays anymore.

Speaker 1: I'm not getting a lot out of our friendship.

Speaker 1: And you hear yourself say, I don't care.

Speaker 1: Fine.

Speaker 1: I have other things I need to do on Wednesdays anyway.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: If you had a succession production crew, as you're saying those words, they would have really sad music playing.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: They know they give you the emotional, true language, the true message that is being delivered in your.

Speaker 1: I don't care.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: I wanted to work out of Wednesdays at lunch anyway.

Speaker 1: That's just your character strategy.

Speaker 1: That's just the way you're surviving.

Speaker 1: Now, you may believe it.

Speaker 1: You may be proud of it.

Speaker 1: Whatever.

Speaker 1: I don't need negative people in my life.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: You may believe it.

Speaker 1: But listen, the succession filmmakers would have a very, very sad soundtrack that really hurt.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: I want to help you at some point later that day.

Speaker 1: Go really.

Speaker 1: Are you do you really want to just work out on Wednesdays or did that actually really hurt to feel rejected by your friend?

Speaker 1: Would it OK to feel rejected and that it hurt and give that part of you that's hurting a big hug.

Speaker 1: And then one day, instead of saying to your friend, oh, yeah, you should see my Wednesday gym routine now.

Speaker 1: It's amazing that you would actually tell him, you know, that actually really hurt my feelings because you're important to me.

Speaker 1: It doesn't matter what they will do, but you actually showed up.

Speaker 1: You didn't abandon yourself.

Speaker 1: You let yourself feel your feelings.

Speaker 1: You loved yourself and you spoke your truth.

Speaker 1: Like talk about courage and strength.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: And and in that same way, that's what we're always doing as couples.

Speaker 1: Therapists is helping people see when their partner does that reactive behavior of I don't care anyway.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: That's the sad music coming in like that's their way of saying, hey, I just got hurt.

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 1: So and that's what I like.

Speaker 1: So hopefully, you know, people grow their ability to see in yourself and see in other people what people are saying that looks tough or they don't care or they're mean.

Speaker 1: There's always really, really sad music playing if they're doing those things.

Speaker 2: Exactly.

Speaker 1: You're just unfortunately for us, no one's going to telegraph the sad music.

Speaker 1: You got to like read between the lines.

Speaker 1: Listen really closely.

Speaker 1: My God.

Speaker 1: You know, I always give the example of like a little kid.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Gets mad at their mom and dad.

Speaker 1: Mom and dad are sitting in one of those living rooms.

Speaker 1: The kid runs up the stairs.

Speaker 1: There's like a balcony.

Speaker 1: They're looking down over the living room, some open floor plan home.

Speaker 1: And the kid stands at the top of the stairs and says, I'm leaving.

Speaker 1: I'm packing my bags and I'm going.

Speaker 1: I hate you.

Speaker 1: I hate you.

Speaker 1: I hate you.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Now, parents that aren't clued in would go little ungrateful fucker.

Speaker 1: Let me help you pack your bags.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: But parents that get the music, they're like, our little one loves us so much.

Speaker 1: His little heart is breaking.

Speaker 1: He's actually so sad.

Speaker 1: He's leaving.

Speaker 1: He hates us.

Speaker 1: Oh, he loves us so much.

Speaker 1: Don't be so quick to believe what people are saying to you.

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: And of course, don't be so quick to believe yourself.

Speaker 1: No offense when you're being all tough and I don't need people.

Speaker 1: Yeah, that's maybe the first thing for people to get is don't believe your own BS.

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Don't believe your own press release.

Speaker 1: Especially if you think your BS smells good.

Speaker 1: That's a good sign.

Speaker 1: If you think your BS actually smells good, we might have some work to do.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: We're in trouble.

Speaker 1: All right.

Speaker 1: I don't know.

Speaker 1: That's it.

Speaker 1: It's good to do a show again.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Good to see you, Karen.

Speaker 1: Anything you want to say before we end?

Speaker 1: Go watch Succession.

Speaker 1: Yeah, it's worth it.

Speaker 1: You'll get a whole education in failed attachment.

Speaker 1: So good and so witty and clever and funny and amazing on all levels.

Speaker 1: But yeah, try and find the one inside you that got hurt and see if you could start loving that part of you and dare to love the hurt one inside of the people you care most about in the world.

Speaker 1: You're not going to make it easy for yourself to receive love, nor are other people going to make it easy to receive love, right?

Speaker 1: Because they're busy trying to protect themselves from hurting again.

Speaker 1: But that's your job.

Speaker 1: Love yourself.

Speaker 1: Love other people.

Speaker 1: Try and be kind.

Speaker 1: That's it.

Speaker 1: That's all I got to say.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Go be love warriors.

Speaker 1: Yes.

Speaker 1: Warriors for love.

Speaker 1: Thank you, Karen.

Speaker 1: Thanks, Fitz.

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