Speaker 1: And then I feel really alone in everything that I do.

Speaker 2: I have no modesty.

Speaker 2: I'm the son of an alcoholic.

Speaker 2: No successful relationships in my life.

Speaker 1: 11 repeat purposes.

Speaker 1: Did you get hurt too?

Speaker 1: You come here to me.

Speaker 1: Thank you.

Speaker 1: Welcome back listeners and viewers.

Speaker 1: I'm Figgs, your host of the Come Here To Me podcast.

Speaker 1: And this week we have another episode of the couple's therapy work series.

Speaker 1: And I'm joined by the wonderful, amazing therapist on our team, Karen Gordon.

Speaker 1: Good to see you, Karen.

Speaker 1: Good to see you.

Speaker 1: So, yeah, let's see.

Speaker 1: What are we going to talk about today, Karen?

Speaker 2: Well, I was thinking it would be a good place to start is just to answer the question for people who might be listening is like, why should they even listen to us?

Speaker 2: Why are we people that are worth giving?

Speaker 2: I don't know, a half hour, 45 minutes, an hour of your time.

Speaker 1: It's a brilliant question, right?

Speaker 1: It's so funny.

Speaker 1: It's such a fundamental question.

Speaker 1: I like so much I can take for granted.

Speaker 1: So, so let me see if I can start from the top.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: The number one reason that you should listen to us versus all the other quote unquote relationship experts out there is we actually spend our day to day life helping people have better relationships.

Speaker 1: We're doing it every day and I've been doing it for 10 plus years and then 10, 20, 30 plus years of getting my own house in order as a person and relationships in order.

Speaker 1: So, like, we here at Empathy, right, we help couples go from disconnection, not having the relationship they desire to having a better relationship, a happy relationship, a connected relationship.

Speaker 1: Having sex again in the relationship, repairing from betrayals in the relationship, affairs.

Speaker 1: Like, we're actually doing that with real people every day over and over and over and over again.

Speaker 2: Every day.

Speaker 1: It's not an academic thing.

Speaker 1: Follow this advice and you'll have a better relationship.

Speaker 1: We actually have the people come into us having a crap time and they leave us the vast majority.

Speaker 1: Leave feeling much better and they literally leave.

Speaker 1: They stop coming to see us because they are quote unquote better.

Speaker 1: Yes.

Speaker 1: I'm really glad you asked that, Karen, because I take it for sometimes again.

Speaker 1: I don't emphasize enough.

Speaker 1: That this is this is what we do.

Speaker 1: We don't just talk about this.

Speaker 2: Yeah, we do it all day long.

Speaker 1: Why do you think people should listen to us or pay attention?

Speaker 2: Yeah, well, you know, sometimes people like, especially when they start are a little bit skeptical.

Speaker 1: I'm sorry when you say start like individual counseling or couples counseling when couples begin counseling with me.

Speaker 2: You know, and sometimes they will talk about their issues and they'll kind of be a little bit skeptical at first because they don't think that this is necessarily going to help them.

Speaker 2: Or maybe one partner is really excited and the other is kind of being dragged there and they're skeptical.

Speaker 2: And what I say is like, I wouldn't be doing this if I didn't see it work.

Speaker 2: It would be so discouraging and like meaningless for me to be doing it if I didn't see the changes actually happen.

Speaker 2: And when you see it, when you see two people come in and they're like, really triggered and activated and they're angry at each other and they feel really disconnected.

Speaker 2: And by the end of the session, you can actually feel their nervous systems just settle and calm and get into that, like, deep, calm state where they feel connected again.

Speaker 2: And they feel securely bonded again, even if it's just for a few minutes, even if it's just for a moment.

Speaker 2: And we know that they might get into another conflict again between this week and next week.

Speaker 2: But we're teaching them something new, which is and this is the thing that I always tell people is like, it's not your fault.

Speaker 2: You don't know how to do this.

Speaker 2: Nobody teaches us how to be good at relationships.

Speaker 2: And that's what we're doing day in and day out with every couple that comes to see us in all different circumstances is we're going to help you go from disconnection to connection.

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 2: I'm working with whatever's going on for them.

Speaker 1: I love it.

Speaker 1: The big truth in that, without getting into the actual details of the therapy, is we do the work.

Speaker 1: And yes, now we're talking about it with you for free medium that is a podcast or a video.

Speaker 1: But like, you know, hopefully a big differentiator between us is we've actually done the work for us and other relationship experts out there is we have done the work successfully.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: The actual work is the doing it.

Speaker 1: The talking about it afterwards is just fun because we like to give value to it.

Speaker 1: Well, you know, like we love what we do and we get to talk about it.

Speaker 1: But we had to earn the right to talk about it.

Speaker 2: Right.

Speaker 2: And we're not talking about it from a place of theory.

Speaker 2: We're in the trenches every day, sitting with people in the shit, so to speak, sitting with them where they're disconnected.

Speaker 2: And it might be really hard to get them back to a place of connection and be really difficult to get them de-escalated, get them from a place of feeling really bad about themselves and each other to feeling better.

Speaker 2: And we do that every day.

Speaker 2: That's the work that we do.

Speaker 1: I love it.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: But it just really helps me to remember that.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Because I can doubt myself.

Speaker 1: I'm like, why would anyone listen to me?

Speaker 1: I'm like, wait a second.

Speaker 1: Like, I know.

Speaker 1: And you, Karen.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: We know how to help people have better relationships because we do it.

Speaker 1: We do it.

Speaker 1: We do it.

Speaker 1: We do it.

Speaker 1: It works.

Speaker 1: So it helps me like not second guess myself.

Speaker 1: Good.

Speaker 1: So let's talk about something specific that then would like, you know, let people know, how do we do it?

Speaker 1: What would be a good question, do you think, today, Karen?

Speaker 2: Well, I mean, I think one of the biggest issues that people come to see a couple's therapist for is betrayal.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 2: And betrayals can be really I mean, they can run the gamut from like really major betrayals.

Speaker 2: If I've been having an affair and lying to you about it for years or there or they can be kind of smaller, quote unquote, betrayals, but still issues that break trust between partners.

Speaker 2: And it's significant.

Speaker 2: Once trust is broken, how to repair it.

Speaker 2: And so I think that's something that could really help a lot of people.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: I mean, that's a huge one.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: And it's probably a topic we'll we'll come back to over and over and over again.

Speaker 1: But, yeah, how to recover from a betrayal in your relationship.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: And like, how do we.

Speaker 1: So what you know, I don't know about every situation is unique.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: But I can tell you the main way that we help people recover from a betrayal.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: In general.

Speaker 1: Again, there's nuances in every single situation.

Speaker 1: And I think maybe it would be best.

Speaker 1: Like you said, there's little ones.

Speaker 1: I mean, quote unquote, little ones.

Speaker 1: It might feel a little bit of a relationship.

Speaker 1: But let's say that, you know, the one that it usually feels like the biggest mountain often.

Speaker 1: But even this not always is there has been an affair or there's an ongoing active affair.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: In the relationship.

Speaker 1: And maybe one will I talk through.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Like, let's talk together about how do we help people where they come in to see us because there has been discovered.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Let's do that.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 2: And I'm thinking like maybe just quickly before we get into that is like, why?

Speaker 2: Why is it such a big deal?

Speaker 2: Like, just from the attachment perspective of what is actually happening when someone is having an affair from the attachment perspective, calling it as we do an attachment injury.

Speaker 2: Like, what what is that?

Speaker 2: What's actually happening in this?

Speaker 2: So you think you're in a relationship where you're securely bonded and then something happens.

Speaker 2: So maybe you can go from there.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: That's a really good.

Speaker 1: Well, so here's the first thing I would say is usually it's there's it's a slight misunderstanding that an affair is one betrayal.

Speaker 1: Usually it's multiple betrayals.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: So and so we'll get into what that means.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: But ultimately, if you remember what is attachment, it's like you need to be know that you're safely emotionally bonded with your person and whether your sensitivity is.

Speaker 1: Are you there for me?

Speaker 1: Some flavor of that?

Speaker 1: Or am I enough for you?

Speaker 1: That has basically been broken that trust and safety that I know you're you're there for me.

Speaker 1: And an example of that, you would actually consider my feelings when you make choices in the world, clearly.

Speaker 1: And let's say one is sensitive to.

Speaker 1: Are you there for me?

Speaker 1: Do you consider my feelings?

Speaker 1: The fact that you went and you had a relationship with someone else for six months and it's ongoing, let's say that would be it.

Speaker 1: Is that answer yes or no to you're there for me and you consider my feelings and what you choose to do?

Speaker 2: Oh, yeah, that's like hard.

Speaker 1: It's hard.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: It's as simple as that right now.

Speaker 1: Let's say, you know, someone on the other side of relationship.

Speaker 1: Someone has an affair because, oh, my God, you're so boring.

Speaker 1: I want to find the new me.

Speaker 1: And I'm going to go off now and meet my cool friends.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: So the other the person that got betrayed.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Like they have always wanted to know, are are they enough for you and you going off with your new magic partner for six months?

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: That's full of magic and is making you feel magic about yourself.

Speaker 1: Not make sense.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Why one would do it.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Not condoning it.

Speaker 1: The answer to their question by you having an affair of am I enough for you is a big, if not the biggest and emphatic.

Speaker 1: No.

Speaker 1: So that's ultimately why do we look at affairs as attachment injuries?

Speaker 1: That safety of are you there for me?

Speaker 1: Am I enough for you?

Speaker 1: Has just gotten shattered by the action of having an affair usually.

Speaker 2: Right.

Speaker 2: And are you there for me?

Speaker 2: Is can I trust you like they're kind of.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 2: Tied together.

Speaker 1: Well, so that's why, you know, and maybe it is good to talk about.

Speaker 1: There's usually multiple aspects of a betrayal.

Speaker 1: So there is the you're not there for me.

Speaker 1: You didn't consider my feelings.

Speaker 1: Let's just run through this one.

Speaker 1: You're not there for me.

Speaker 1: You didn't consider my feelings that you would be with someone else.

Speaker 1: Then there's the actual, let's say, sex and intimacy.

Speaker 1: There's there's the you didn't consider my feelings.

Speaker 1: You have shamed me.

Speaker 1: You've made me feel stupid.

Speaker 1: You gaslit me.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: You told me about, no, I'm just meeting my friends.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Who else knows about this?

Speaker 1: What will I tell my parents?

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: My sister.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Like you had this other life without me.

Speaker 1: Why don't even know what happened?

Speaker 1: Like some people need to know the details of everything to record.

Speaker 1: Other people don't want to hear the details.

Speaker 1: Now, just if you think I just said about six or seven things.

Speaker 1: There are six or seven different betrayals actually inside the one big umbrella betrayal of the affair.

Speaker 1: So this is where it gets like we actually are probably going to in that scenario that I just like someone has an affair.

Speaker 1: And they were all the different separate individual betrayals inside of the big betrayal.

Speaker 1: We're probably going to have to resolve all not just the big umbrella, but all six or seven of those individual ones, too.

Speaker 2: Right.

Speaker 2: And even within those individual ones, there's the question of like, OK, so my entire reality, I have to rewrite my entire reality.

Speaker 2: So that time that you said that you were going to Uncle Tim's house, you actually were with this woman.

Speaker 2: And that other time when you said this.

Speaker 2: And so that's like a big piece of what happens for people is like, what is even real?

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 1: And what a betrayal is that you actually pulled the reality from under my feet.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: So that's where, like, you know, a lot of times it's one of the earliest parts of the process is really identifying all the different betrayals and validating like that's a real thing.

Speaker 1: So it's not just like they were with someone else.

Speaker 1: People often just simplify it.

Speaker 1: There is a bunch of different things.

Speaker 1: Your reality got taken, you were lied to, like it's shameful, it's embarrassing.

Speaker 1: You always told yourself you would just leave.

Speaker 1: I feel bad about myself.

Speaker 1: Like they're just.

Speaker 1: Oh, my God.

Speaker 1: Like they're just so much if we were sexually intimate with someone else.

Speaker 1: Like it's just like there's just so many different aspects to emotion.

Speaker 1: You tell I saw the text.

Speaker 1: You told me you told him you love them.

Speaker 1: Oh, right.

Speaker 1: So many different things.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: That we want to, like, be able to firstly identify and carve out.

Speaker 1: And of course, in that process, we're validating and showing the person in a way they probably don't even know themselves that got betrayed, that they absolutely make sense.

Speaker 2: Right.

Speaker 1: This is even bigger than I got cheated on.

Speaker 1: This is huge on multiple levels.

Speaker 2: Right.

Speaker 2: Right.

Speaker 2: And just when you frame everything from the attachment perspective, it helps people really feel validated.

Speaker 2: Like, wow, this is very, very real.

Speaker 2: The question of are you there for me was a no.

Speaker 2: Am I enough for you?

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 1: Like, I just got a look.

Speaker 1: I've always been trying to be enough for you.

Speaker 1: And, you know, flashy Ken came along and you like jumped in his car.

Speaker 2: Right.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: And took off for six months.

Speaker 1: So so so and by the way, so it's validating for the person that got betrayed.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Like they're like they it's going to make it easier for them to engage in the process.

Speaker 1: They're like, oh, my God, this person gets what I'm going through even more than in some ways I'd even organize myself.

Speaker 1: That's really important.

Speaker 1: And then, of course, is really good for the betrayer to hear it broken down like, whoa.

Speaker 1: Like, a lot of times I say to betrayer, they're kind of trying to rush often, not always, but often the betrayers trying to rush to this is over.

Speaker 1: When is it going to be finally over?

Speaker 1: When am I finally forgiven?

Speaker 1: When do you trust me again?

Speaker 2: Right.

Speaker 1: And so for for the betrayer to hear, whoa, it actually makes sense.

Speaker 1: It's not over because there's all of these different individual betrayals.

Speaker 1: Don't get me wrong.

Speaker 1: It's going to be very, very hard for them to hear it, but it's actually gets them closer to settling in to, oh, this isn't just going to be like, oh, I'm sorry.

Speaker 1: Trust me again.

Speaker 1: I won't do it again.

Speaker 1: No, we have a frigging process ahead of us.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 2: And I think that's like the biggest issue when it comes to working with a couple where there's a betrayal is the person who betrayed the person who committed the betrayal.

Speaker 2: They, the biggest issue, the biggest hurdle is them having the patience for how long it's going to take for them to be trusted again, which is usually a lot longer than they expect it to significantly longer than they think it should take.

Speaker 2: And they're like, oh, my God, I've said sorry so many times.

Speaker 2: I've been trying so hard to make you trust me again.

Speaker 2: Why do you still why are you still going over this over and over?

Speaker 2: And it's like they don't understand that it's actually a trauma response and it takes a lot of time to heal.

Speaker 1: Yeah, I love that.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: So how do we do that?

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: So how do we do that?

Speaker 1: And this is where I think I like being a therapist because I got to be my most enlightened self, right?

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: And again, the beauty of the work.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: And this is what I'm saying.

Speaker 1: Like, so, yeah, so that's huge.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: That we got to be able to accept and hold the betrayer.

Speaker 1: Not like I'm the pain they're in.

Speaker 1: Not only how are we going to make this right for the person that was betrayed?

Speaker 1: Now, we do make it right for the person that was betrayed, but it has to be an all needs met.

Speaker 1: Ultimately, the experience is an all need met experience where someone that is has is in the terror.

Speaker 1: And it is terror that they'll never be fully forgiven and trusted again.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: But they will have the missing experience that I'm back into being trusted.

Speaker 1: All right.

Speaker 1: And we want to help them never forget what it felt like when they weren't trusted.

Speaker 1: Remember that hurt so badly.

Speaker 1: Oh, I do that again.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: But right.

Speaker 1: You know, so but we also need to have the person that got betrayed is Oh, my God, you weren't there for me.

Speaker 1: You hurt me so much, but it looks like you get it now.

Speaker 1: And you're here.

Speaker 1: You're here now.

Speaker 1: And they could rest in that experience together.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I love the way you describe that.

Speaker 2: And I feel like always our job is like holding both at the same time.

Speaker 2: It's like juggling.

Speaker 2: It's like you totally make sense.

Speaker 2: And you totally make sense.

Speaker 2: And like being aware of what both people are experiencing.

Speaker 2: And there are different perspectives at the same time all the time is what our job is.

Speaker 2: But when it comes to a betrayal, I feel like it's even more intense.

Speaker 2: Much more intense.

Speaker 2: Exactly.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Yeah, that is if you just think about, even just as you said it, right, I'm getting worried about listeners like freaking out, right?

Speaker 2: Mm hmm.

Speaker 1: I'm gonna say the very, very first thing I need to I try and do when I have a couple of where there's been a betrayal is, right, here's what I know I have to do.

Speaker 1: One, I have, we got to create this experience that I just described that it's an all needs met experience.

Speaker 1: And primarily that the person that got betrayed experiences this living breathing moment of an experience, right?

Speaker 1: It's not just theoretical, not about not behaviors or communication skills.

Speaker 1: That's the craft of our work that they experience in a moment, this person really gets the way I got hurt, like really gets it.

Speaker 1: And they're here and they care now and they feel bad and they're sorry.

Speaker 1: And I can trust that they're here now.

Speaker 1: So that's it.

Speaker 1: We're all of the work is to get to that experience.

Speaker 1: Yeah, I just said that.

Speaker 1: And what was it like 20 seconds?

Speaker 1: Unbelievably hard to have that experience.

Speaker 1: So many things we have to attend to, and like deeply an honor inside of both of them obstacles to get to that experience.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: First one is just like you said, right.

Speaker 1: So we want to like have this injury recovery experience.

Speaker 1: And it's going to take both of them to create.

Speaker 1: And then there's also a system that they must have been in for a affair to happen.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: How do you ask someone, and this is really important, I literally say this always to like, like a couple.

Speaker 1: How so we got to have this injury repair and we have to like, see the system we were in before the affair, the system we're in now.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: So two different systems, most likely, at least.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: And how do you ask someone that's been cheated on?

Speaker 1: Let's just make a scenario like, hold on, you had sex in my bed for six months with someone else when I went to work.

Speaker 1: How do you ask that person to study?

Speaker 1: What is the system that you both co-created that it could have led to the circumstances that there would be an affair?

Speaker 1: So first thing I have to establish, no one in the entire universe has the right to ask you or expect you to be available to repair this injury.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Like for you to have to show up and like actually work on being able to trust again.

Speaker 1: No way should anyone expect that of you.

Speaker 1: You have every right to be hurt.

Speaker 1: You have every right to never, ever trust again.

Speaker 1: And you do not have to look at what was it that happened in this relationship that could have led to this vacuum between us that one of us could have gone outside the relationship.

Speaker 1: Insane madness, but I would even tell you that that's what it is we would end up doing together.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 2: Right.

Speaker 1: Now, framing it that way is really important.

Speaker 1: Yeah, what was that like Karen to hear me?

Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I totally I love the way that you go about it.

Speaker 2: And I think that that's great because we're just we're validating the person who has betrayed so incredibly much.

Speaker 2: Like, no one's going to try to make you do that.

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 1: That's so great.

Speaker 1: That's the you how you're feeling right now, how mad you are, how unavailable you are, how much you don't trust how like, I don't forget, I don't forgive nor will I be ever forgiven.

Speaker 1: Like, I mean, just so much like, absolutely.

Speaker 1: I'm insane to expect you to actually not feel that way.

Speaker 1: And to change in any way.

Speaker 2: And even just the fact that you showed up to couples therapy.

Speaker 2: Wow.

Speaker 1: Unbelievable.

Speaker 2: Yeah, that is so that's so generous.

Speaker 1: It's unbelievably generous.

Speaker 1: Absolutely.

Speaker 1: Absolutely.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: And of course, we have a moment like this, we want to like reach out if it's over telehealth, right?

Speaker 1: We want to look in the eyes of the person that did the betray and go, Hey, listen, Mr. or Mrs. Right, I get you must be dying right now.

Speaker 1: Like, we're like crossing my fingers that hopefully they get this is what needs to happen.

Speaker 1: I'm on your team.

Speaker 1: Right?

Speaker 1: When you say it sounds like you're just validating the person that got betrayed, which we are.

Speaker 1: But this is exactly what the betrayer actually needs to like what we're actually saying to the person that got betrayed is what the betrayer should be saying.

Speaker 1: Because usually the betrayer is like, Look, I did bad.

Speaker 1: You're right.

Speaker 1: I'm sorry.

Speaker 1: I'm sorry.

Speaker 1: Is it bad?

Speaker 1: I won't do it again.

Speaker 1: You see, look at me.

Speaker 1: I'm going to the gym now.

Speaker 1: Like I found other ways to like look at them.

Speaker 1: Can you see I'm good.

Speaker 1: I'm I'm doing the video.

Speaker 1: Therapy.

Speaker 1: You see, I'm here.

Speaker 1: All of that energy.

Speaker 1: They're still rushing to get back to good.

Speaker 1: And you notice what I am doing is I'm going, Hey, listen, you never have to get good again.

Speaker 1: That's actually what the betrayer should be doing.

Speaker 1: Now, don't be writing it down and just do the strategy.

Speaker 1: You have to feel it in your bones and in your heart, because your partner that got betrayed, their organism is millions of years old.

Speaker 1: Yeah, it knows when you're in strategy versus this is an authentic I freaking hurt you in such a way that I would completely understand you will never forgive me.

Speaker 1: And I'm not going to ever try and rush you to forgive me.

Speaker 1: I expect for the rest of your life.

Speaker 1: You are going to see Starbucks.

Speaker 1: And remember, that's where I had my first date with my affair partner.

Speaker 1: And you're going to get triggered.

Speaker 1: And I will always be there and reach out to hold the hand of that little person inside you to just got scared.

Speaker 1: You're going to get hurt again.

Speaker 1: This is never going to go away.

Speaker 1: Now, I'll do it.

Speaker 1: For them, until I model it for them, until they're able to really get there themselves.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 2: And even what you just said, like, as like, I'm imagining myself as the person who is the betrayer, and they're hearing that.

Speaker 2: And it's so great how you're modeling it for them what they need to do.

Speaker 2: But I imagine that that person is terrified hearing that, like, oh, they're never gonna they're never gonna forgive me.

Speaker 2: It's going to be like this forever.

Speaker 2: And that's their biggest fear.

Speaker 2: And so that's why it's so tricky for us, right?

Speaker 2: Holding both all the time.

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 1: It's really tricky, right?

Speaker 1: Because now we got to balance, right, we got to balance, we got to do the healing, we got to see the system.

Speaker 1: And we have to have the person that's just trying to get back to good that feels bad.

Speaker 1: We actually have to have them feel the depth of the terror.

Speaker 1: So when so this is like, it validates the person that listen, no one has a right to be asking you to actually make things better.

Speaker 1: Listen, I'm right there with you.

Speaker 1: Let's go slash his tires together, or her tires, like, keep using his for betrayers.

Speaker 1: It's not right.

Speaker 2: It's not right.

Speaker 1: But right, look, let's go do it.

Speaker 1: You're totally right.

Speaker 1: You can be mad forever.

Speaker 1: I support you being mad forever.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: But let's say as I'm doing that, it terrifies the person that did the betraying.

Speaker 1: Well, the way the the two real definitions of what love is, is you're so important to me that when you're not there, I'm terrified.

Speaker 1: You're and then the other one.

Speaker 1: Number two, if you remember, you're so important to me is when it looks like I'm a disappointment to you.

Speaker 1: I'm terrified.

Speaker 1: Well, great.

Speaker 1: I need to have the person deeply be embedded in the living breathing experience of I feel the depth of what a disappointment I am to you.

Speaker 1: And I'm terrified.

Speaker 1: It feels so bad.

Speaker 1: But where they're usually trying to get away from it, I'm actually now going to try and hold them in it and keep them terrified.

Speaker 1: And the person that got betrayed, seize them, feel the terror, the pain of I disappointed you.

Speaker 1: I feel so bad for you because I love you.

Speaker 1: And I feel so bad about myself.

Speaker 1: They're like the person that got betrayed will now see, holy shit, they get there.

Speaker 1: They're fucking getting it.

Speaker 1: That experience is what we have to create.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: It's not communication skills and not behavior change.

Speaker 1: It's that experience where, holy shit, my partner really gets it.

Speaker 1: They're dying inside because of the way they get the way they hurt me.

Speaker 1: They care about me in the way I'm hurt and they feel bad about themselves.

Speaker 1: And from that understanding, deep understanding and experience, I'm sorry.

Speaker 1: And I'm here.

Speaker 1: I get it.

Speaker 1: I'm here now in the way I wasn't there then.

Speaker 1: Is there any way you could now believe me and let me be here now?

Speaker 1: Let's say the person is still not available.

Speaker 1: Well, that's totally understandable.

Speaker 1: But, you know, it may not work immediately.

Speaker 1: Nothing works immediately.

Speaker 1: Nothing works the first time.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: You got to do it again and again and again and again.

Speaker 2: But what you're talking about when you help the person who did the betraying to be in that terror, that is actually such a healing thing, like you're saying, for the person who was betrayed because they're believing that their partner doesn't really care about them.

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 2: And so when they get to see how much they care and how terrified they are of losing them, that actually can open their heart.

Speaker 1: It opens their heart.

Speaker 1: And here's the other thing.

Speaker 1: It's actually really healing for the person that did the betraying, too, because as long as you think about everything they're doing is they're trying to get like what's happening right now is I'm unacceptable.

Speaker 1: I'm not loved.

Speaker 1: I'm in trouble.

Speaker 1: I'll be in trouble forever.

Speaker 1: That's the reality of their experience.

Speaker 1: And everything they're trying to do is not feel the reality of their experience.

Speaker 1: As long as they're succeeding and not being with the reality of what their experience is, it cannot change to something new.

Speaker 1: So the way we actually help someone get out of their own internal suffering is, you know, we're going on a bear hunt.

Speaker 1: We can't go over it.

Speaker 1: We can't go under it.

Speaker 1: We can't go around it.

Speaker 1: We got to go through it.

Speaker 1: The affair was the perfect set of ingredients for this person to stop always trying to get away from what it is to be you.

Speaker 1: Stop always trying to go elsewhere for comfort.

Speaker 1: An affair, a burrito, a hot dog, working too much, drinking.

Speaker 1: Now you're going to have we have this amazing set of circumstances for you to tolerate the reality of what it's like inside you.

Speaker 1: You're fucking terrified.

Speaker 1: You feel terrible about yourself.

Speaker 1: You feel powerless, whatever it is.

Speaker 1: You feel alone.

Speaker 1: You cannot tolerate your experience.

Speaker 1: Now we'll feel it.

Speaker 1: And well, yes, you get to share what you're actually feeling instead of doing that shit you do to avoid your experience.

Speaker 1: That's what actually makes someone be able to live in the world as who they are.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Instead of living in the world constantly trying to run away from themselves.

Speaker 2: I love that.

Speaker 1: So to the betrayer, this is brilliant too.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 2: And you're also I love the way you described that.

Speaker 2: It was so good.

Speaker 2: And you're also teaching them.

Speaker 2: You're giving them an experience of they can actually survive being with themselves and their own feelings.

Speaker 2: And that's something that they probably didn't really believe before you kind of force them through it.

Speaker 1: It's great.

Speaker 1: And by the way, just to go back to like, why would you, you know, this is the thing.

Speaker 1: Why would you listen to us?

Speaker 1: Why would you pay attention to us?

Speaker 1: If relationship advice worked, it's all out there.

Speaker 1: People are telling you what to do, communicate better, say nice things to each other in the morning.

Speaker 1: It's not like a bad idea to try these things, but it's not what helps.

Speaker 1: What helps are these experience of yourself and the other person.

Speaker 1: I mean, when I say helps, what really transforms is you change your whole perspective about who you are, what you do, who your partner is, what you do.

Speaker 1: And you dare to be in a living, breathing experience where you actually are feeling your feelings and then you're feeling those feelings together and you're sharing and you live in that frigging cauldron of pain and vulnerability and snot and tears.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: And then you're like, holy shit, look who we really are.

Speaker 1: And we share that together.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: That's what changes things.

Speaker 1: That's right.

Speaker 1: And you cannot put that in a fucking five relationship tips list.

Speaker 2: That's right.

Speaker 2: And nothing short of that changes it.

Speaker 2: And us doing it over and over again and seeing it change is what is so powerful.

Speaker 2: I mean, as clinicians doing that work is like, oh, this stuff works.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Well, look, and this is the thing I don't know.

Speaker 1: And this is going to sound self-serving.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Of course.

Speaker 1: I don't know how people have those experiences without someone.

Speaker 1: It doesn't have to be me.

Speaker 1: It doesn't have to be you.

Speaker 1: It doesn't have to be Teal or someone else on our team.

Speaker 1: But I don't know how to people craft and create that experience that opens this deep transformation without a guide that knows how to move you deeper towards the reality of what's happening and isn't buying in with both of you to trying to get out of it.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 2: Exactly.

Speaker 2: Exactly.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: And then the other thing is, of course, like framing the failures.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: So, you know, the way of saying like, look, that experience is this magical, like, look, you know, you're here now the way you weren't here, then you really get the way like you weren't there for me.

Speaker 1: And they get to be enough and not in trouble.

Speaker 1: And you have that magical experience.

Speaker 1: We're going to try and make that happen.

Speaker 1: And I expect it's going to fail 50 times.

Speaker 1: And everywhere it fails, right, just like if you're trying to do a pull up and you realize, well, it fails.

Speaker 1: I can't even grip the bar.

Speaker 1: We know we got to grip the bar, we have to try.

Speaker 1: So I need to do scapula push ups for the next two months up.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: I got to like do active hand like there's a progression to be able to do a full form pull up.

Speaker 1: But someone that actually knows what they're doing, is it when when you try and do a pull up and you like hurt yourself because you can't even grip the bar, they're able to go well, it makes sense.

Speaker 1: Of course, like this is where.

Speaker 1: So being able to hold the frame and knowing where we are on the map and we haven't actually fallen off the map of healing because you couldn't grip the bar because we couldn't sit in the room the first time without saying, I will never, ever forgive you, you fucker.

Speaker 1: Well, yeah, that's exactly where we should be.

Speaker 1: We're actually still on the map.

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 1: You can't tolerate not being acceptable.

Speaker 1: Why is she's not or he not over it yet?

Speaker 1: Or they not over it yet?

Speaker 1: Well, well, how the hell would they be over it?

Speaker 1: Yeah, we're exactly where we should be.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: So so that like, yes, someone that look, I have gone down into this volcano and back out again hundreds of times.

Speaker 1: We're exactly where we should be.

Speaker 1: That is also creating safety.

Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2: And it's really helpful to just for anybody that's listening, that they don't necessarily assume that in the first session they're going to be managing to go into this really, really deep, most vulnerable of experiences, because it usually doesn't work that way.

Speaker 2: It usually takes some time until they build up enough safety and enough trust to and like you said, enough times failing it, trying to get there.

Speaker 2: But it's not really a failure.

Speaker 2: It's just like, wow, you did a really good job taking a chance to reach for your partner.

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 2: And share your feelings.

Speaker 2: And you celebrate even the failures because it is a success because you're not doing the same thing that you always do, which is just having these reactive cycles of attack, defend, attack, defend.

Speaker 2: You're doing something different.

Speaker 1: Yeah, it's brilliant.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Like, yeah, so it's definitely a process we don't have right there.

Speaker 1: There's all sorts of things we need to have happen.

Speaker 1: Experiences we need to have happen along the way in order to have this magical transformation experience.

Speaker 1: And then hopefully the new, what then, let's say that couple that successfully goes from there's been a betrayal, I'll never feel safe again, I'll never be forgiven again.

Speaker 1: They actually understand who they both are, their feelings.

Speaker 1: It doesn't, they've now come to accept these aren't going to go away and we don't want them to go away.

Speaker 1: This is the ideal, the way they lead.

Speaker 1: This is what, let's say, transformed looks like in some version of this.

Speaker 1: Listen, let's say the betrayed, I'm going to be vulnerable, getting hurt forever.

Speaker 1: And I've actually come to accept that's who I am.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: And I'm going to love and care for that part of me and their partners like and, hey, I get it now.

Speaker 1: I'm going to love and care.

Speaker 1: I don't want you to stop being scared.

Speaker 1: I want you to tell me when you're scared and it's OK if you're scared in 10 years from now.

Speaker 1: I'm going to love the shit out of that part of you forever.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: And then the other part is like, look, I can see how bad you can feel about yourself.

Speaker 1: You don't have to turn away when you feel bad.

Speaker 1: You can tell me about that part of you.

Speaker 1: I'm glad.

Speaker 1: And it's like the person like, Jesus, I didn't know that's why I was turning away.

Speaker 1: I feel terrible about myself inside.

Speaker 1: I'm actually going to love that part and give you an opportunity to love that part.

Speaker 1: And so instead of like, oh, everything that happened in the affair is over.

Speaker 1: It's like, oh, my God, we'll never forget this.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: We're going to love the parts of each other that got hurt in that awful experience, whether you were betrayed or the betrayer.

Speaker 1: We're going there, the honored guests at dinner, every time we go out, when we go out, we don't actually get a table for two.

Speaker 1: We get a table for four.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: I know the maitre d' thinks it's really weird, like where are the little kids inside us that can feel abandoned and feel rejected.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: But, you know, we're going to honor and care for our most vulnerable selves forever.

Speaker 1: Thank God we had an opportunity to really know who we are and to show up and love each other for the rest of our lives.

Speaker 2: And I love the way that you frame that, because people might think like we just need to get over this affair so that we can forget it and forget the pain, let it go and move on.

Speaker 2: And you're talking about like a completely turning that on its head.

Speaker 2: No, we actually want to always hold these vulnerable selves that ended up.

Speaker 1: It's not for everybody.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: I mean, you know what I mean?

Speaker 1: It's OK.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Don't get me wrong.

Speaker 1: If someone comes to see me and they're really like, listen, figs, I am an actuary.

Speaker 1: Thank you.

Speaker 1: It kind of makes sense what you're saying.

Speaker 1: But how do we just get to a place where two plus two equals four?

Speaker 1: OK, well, you know, we can help you.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: But but look, on some level.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Just these things don't go away.

Speaker 1: We either integrate them as part of who we are as individuals and as a relationship or else they continue to haunt us forever.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: It's just reality.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: It's just the way it is.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: What people need is not necessarily what they want.

Speaker 1: And this is the tough part.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: They want everything to be better and it's over now.

Speaker 1: Thank God it's over.

Speaker 1: But actually, that's not actually what you need.

Speaker 1: It's like we're going to integrate this deeply so that we can be even more fully ourselves as individuals and together.

Speaker 2: Something that I always tell people in terms of what it takes to repair from from a betrayal, everything that we're talking about and the work that you that you do in session, but also that it's time times consistency of behavior.

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 2: Transparency is what rebuilds trust.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 2: And the time one is really hard for people because they don't want to wait as long as it takes.

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 2: It's always going to take longer.

Speaker 2: It's always going to take longer.

Speaker 2: And the consistency of behavior and the transparency that's required, meaning you might now, you know, be since this has happened, be in a situation where if your partner says, I want to look at your phone, you're willing to hand over your phone and it might feel like a violation.

Speaker 2: And yet it's it's part of kind of like you're in a new relationship now.

Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2: There's a before and after.

Speaker 1: No, that's great.

Speaker 1: I love you did that.

Speaker 1: That's a really great one.

Speaker 1: Looking at the phone.

Speaker 1: So let me see if I can talk through all of them really quickly.

Speaker 1: This is the experience that we want to craft with that.

Speaker 1: One, it's like there is a system you're in when you ask when you can I look at your phone, the other person feels they oh, my God, I'm still not forgiven.

Speaker 1: Of course, it makes sense.

Speaker 1: They'll be defensive when you're defensive because they answer the phone.

Speaker 1: The other person is going to get scared.

Speaker 1: I'm going to get hurt again.

Speaker 1: So they're going to demand the phone.

Speaker 1: Oh, my God, I really am in trouble.

Speaker 1: I'm going to like throw my phone out the window so no one ever sees it.

Speaker 1: Evidence that you must be cheating, that you did such a thing.

Speaker 1: So one is we want to like honor by reflecting, look at the system you're in together.

Speaker 1: OK, we're both getting hurt.

Speaker 1: We're both getting scared.

Speaker 1: We're both reacting in a way that's scaring the other person.

Speaker 1: Get them to live inside that world of what's happening this second.

Speaker 1: Not about whether it's right to look at the phone, wrong to look and share your phone.

Speaker 1: This second, this snapshot of this moment, look at the system we're in with each other and just have them like, yeah, that's what's happening.

Speaker 1: Absolutely.

Speaker 1: We're both getting bloody scared and we're both scaring the shit out of each other.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: OK, that's true.

Speaker 1: Now, now we can go and validate individually the person.

Speaker 1: Of course, you'd look want to look for at the phone because you're scared of getting hurt again.

Speaker 1: And we can do a deep pass of them sharing.

Speaker 1: I'm just get so scared I'll get hurt again because now they're in a system together.

Speaker 1: The person doesn't have to be.

Speaker 1: It's a violation of my divine right to individual sovereignty.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: We don't have to be defendants that they're like, oh, my God, it makes sense.

Speaker 1: You're scared of getting hurt again.

Speaker 1: And it made me feel bad.

Speaker 1: And they can like, here's my phone.

Speaker 1: And then we can actually do the person that like nobody, nobody interferes with with my individualism.

Speaker 1: I'm an American.

Speaker 1: I have a right.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: You know, right.

Speaker 1: But they don't have to.

Speaker 1: They actually look.

Speaker 1: I can feel so bad every time he has to look at the phone.

Speaker 1: I get reminded that I'm bad.

Speaker 1: I'm in trouble and I hurt you.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: And that the person now is like that we're in a system and they saw that you actually care about my feelings.

Speaker 1: They're able to.

Speaker 1: Oh, sweetie.

Speaker 1: It actually helps me to see you hurt.

Speaker 1: Come here.

Speaker 1: You are enough.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: So again, if we go to like, it's true.

Speaker 1: Listen, someone that got hurt, they're probably going to want to look at your phone forever.

Speaker 1: Fuck's sake.

Speaker 1: It makes sense.

Speaker 1: Now, listen, the person that was bad every time he has to look at their phone, they're going to feel like shit about themselves.

Speaker 2: Right.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: But again.

Speaker 1: It's not just you should let your partner look at phone, we have to correct sure a craft that experience they have of themselves and each other.

Speaker 1: Now it's a completely different conversation about like whether one looks at one's phone or not.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I love that.

Speaker 2: Like putting the whole thing back inside the system, back inside the the attachment reframe of what it's going to feel like for the person who's being asked to fork over the phone and what it feels like for the other person, why they even want to look at the phone because they're so terrified they're going to be betrayed again.

Speaker 2: And the other one is so terrified that they're never going to be trusted again.

Speaker 2: And that's what's actually happening when they're having a conversation that they think is about the phone.

Speaker 2: They're actually having that conversation of, oh, my God, I'm so scared that we're never going to get through this and you're never going to trust me.

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 1: And so this is, again, it's all about creating that experience that's not about the phone.

Speaker 1: It's about the vulnerability.

Speaker 1: It's about the way we get scared and the way we react and putting it all together.

Speaker 2: Right.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 2: And that thing that you just did at the end, I love that.

Speaker 2: Like, yeah, that's like the thing that I'm always looking for at the end of the session.

Speaker 2: Like if we were there at the end of the session, OK, we're in a good place.

Speaker 2: Like that relaxing of the nervous system.

Speaker 2: That's like, hey, we're safe.

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 1: What I often say these days, I'm always changing it up.

Speaker 1: But what I often say these days is, look, I hate to use technical language with you.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Calm the fuck down.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: It makes sense that she's scared and she'd ask for the phone.

Speaker 1: If she again, Jesus.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: It makes sense.

Speaker 1: He's scared.

Speaker 1: And you'd ask to look at the phone.

Speaker 1: It makes sense that you get reminded you're in trouble and you're defensive.

Speaker 1: Everything's OK.

Speaker 1: You both make sense.

Speaker 1: You're both valid.

Speaker 1: You're both hurting.

Speaker 1: Everybody calm the fuck down.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Two people that love each other that are scared and you're scaring the shit out of each other.

Speaker 1: Everyone relax.

Speaker 1: It's OK.

Speaker 1: Nothing else is happening.

Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1: That's why we've got to keep getting better there.

Speaker 2: Calm the fuck down.

Speaker 2: Four words.

Speaker 2: Very important words.

Speaker 1: Very important technical psychotherapy words.

Speaker 2: Exactly.

Speaker 2: But before we close, I just really think we should make a note of like just I think that there's we are both aware that we have been speaking in a heteronormative way and in a gender biased way with the assumption that the betrayer was the man and the other person is a woman.

Speaker 2: And like, let's just be clear that we know that it can be all sorts of different ways and all sorts of configurations and betrayals.

Speaker 1: As we know, David, they happen in people in open relationships, poly relations.

Speaker 1: Like it's not like, you know, like queer relationships, LGBTQ relations.

Speaker 1: Like it's just like it just like it just happens at every configuration.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: So but that's it.

Speaker 1: Look, I hope the main takeaway you take from this is and I know it's probably annoying.

Speaker 1: There isn't just some like so like list of things to do to say it's all about craft, creating these experiences that you have of yourself.

Speaker 1: The other person has of themselves and you have together and the power of those experiences, what like propels you back into being connected, even when there's an affair.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: That's why I said, look, it's all about craft, helping you have experiences.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 2: And the expectation is not that you can do it on your own, honestly.

Speaker 2: And yes, we're biased.

Speaker 2: We're couples therapists.

Speaker 2: But the reality is that it does tend to be very difficult to do it without a third party who can help create that safe space and help guide both people into that deeper, more vulnerable experience and deeper sharing with each other.

Speaker 1: It's not technically impossible to do it without a therapist, but or like a coach or whatever, someone that knows what they're doing.

Speaker 1: But, you know, it just might be a little messier.

Speaker 1: And if you succeed at all.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: But it's not supposed to be a self.

Speaker 1: But hey, Karen, I know, like, again, what do we got to do?

Speaker 1: We got to go do the work.

Speaker 2: I got one minute.

Speaker 1: I have a session.

Speaker 1: I got to go back to the trenches.

Speaker 1: We got to go, like, help people have better relationships.

Speaker 2: Well, this was really helpful for me.

Speaker 2: I'm going to do better work now after this, this hour of talking about me.

Speaker 1: Me, too.

Speaker 1: It's always good to talk about it so I can get even more passionate while helping others.

Speaker 2: And calm the fuck down.

Speaker 2: Calm the fuck down.

Speaker 2: I'm going to talk to myself, too.

Speaker 1: I think everything's OK, just getting the shit out of each other.

Speaker 1: We're all OK now.

Speaker 1: Thank you, listeners, viewers.

Speaker 1: We got to go run the psychotherapist.

Speaker 2: Bye.

Speaker 1: Thank you.

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