Speaker 1: Every human being has shame inside them.

Speaker 1: There's something.

Speaker 1: And you never know what touches someone else's shame.

Speaker 1: Welcome back to Come Here to Me.

Speaker 1: This is a Figs and Teal episode.

Speaker 1: Good to be here with you, Teal.

Speaker 2: Good to be here with you as well.

Speaker 1: I am very nervous about today.

Speaker 1: I really like that we're challenging ourselves to do stuff that's for reals for us to talk about, right?

Speaker 1: Not stuff that is at a safe distance from us as human that is activating scary, incomplete processes inside of both of us or one of us at a time.

Speaker 2: Is this a payback session?

Speaker 1: Actually, no.

Speaker 1: I don't think it is.

Speaker 1: We'll see.

Speaker 1: Well, I don't think it is.

Speaker 1: And I don't think it should be a difficult session for you, but I could be wrong, right?

Speaker 2: You don't think it should or you think it should?

Speaker 1: I don't think it should.

Speaker 1: I don't think it's a difficult...

Speaker 1: This is a difficult...

Speaker 2: Okay.

Speaker 2: I like this.

Speaker 1: I have a sense that this is primarily just my crap, not...

Speaker 2: Great.

Speaker 1: And you, yeah, I mean, obviously, it's relevant because you have to deal with my crap.

Speaker 1: So it sucks, but I don't think talking about it should be hard for you.

Speaker 2: I get to deal with your crap.

Speaker 1: You get to deal with my crap.

Speaker 2: I know what we're talking about.

Speaker 2: Figs is not launching this on me like he did in the last episode to him.

Speaker 2: I'm looking forward to this.

Speaker 2: And I'm proud of you for having this as a topic.

Speaker 1: Great.

Speaker 2: So yeah, I'm ready.

Speaker 1: Great.

Speaker 1: By the way, one of the things that drives me crazy is when our clients talk about this and that, right?

Speaker 1: You know what I mean?

Speaker 1: And I'm always like, what's the this we're talking about?

Speaker 1: There's no thises or that's allowed in sessions with me, right?

Speaker 1: We always have to name explicitly what we're talking about.

Speaker 1: So with no further ado, I have weird stuff come up.

Speaker 1: Shame about our anniversary date.

Speaker 1: And I'm not, it's actually, it is actually embarrassing for me to talk about it, right?

Speaker 1: Because it flies in the face of like who I look like I am as a person, right?

Speaker 1: Like, like I'm doing this.

Speaker 1: I talk about myself, right?

Speaker 1: I share all my, you know, stuff out loud.

Speaker 1: I let you know when I had a great poop.

Speaker 1: It was like, you know, exactly.

Speaker 1: I do tell you that.

Speaker 1: I know.

Speaker 1: So I'm not, there aren't that many things that I'm, that touch like real cringe, shame moments for me.

Speaker 1: And so I'm just aware that this is an issue in our relationship that I have some shame, a very technical word for it, but I have some discomfort come up around how we got together, how long we were together before we got married, before we got pregnant.

Speaker 1: And so obviously, you know, I think it's useful for me to process that, right?

Speaker 1: Because I have a hang up about it.

Speaker 1: And I think it has a negative impact on our relationship, right?

Speaker 1: Because, you know, just, I mean, I don't speak for you, like, but I'm assuming you don't have that kind of negative hang up about it.

Speaker 1: Is that fair?

Speaker 2: That is fair.

Speaker 2: I mean, I just think, I don't know.

Speaker 2: I feel like you're taking a lot of responsibility, like, you know, responsibility for like, oh, so this is like hurts our relationship.

Speaker 2: It's like this is a social piece.

Speaker 2: This is a socially ingrained experience to have shame around the amount of time we were together before, you know, we conceived and how long, you know, and I don't want to pop the cherry here.

Speaker 2: I want you to be able to say.

Speaker 1: So maybe I'll, obviously I don't want to just be me talking, but it is primarily my crap, like we said.

Speaker 1: So here's the deal.

Speaker 1: So like, as you know, we talked about it in the last episode, if you listen to it, go back and listen to it, where we talked about an early betrayal in our relationship and doing some really good healing for us around that.

Speaker 1: So look, Teal and I got together.

Speaker 1: We met at a retreat center in Big Sur, Esalen.

Speaker 1: It was a magical coming together.

Speaker 1: It was just fabulous, right?

Speaker 1: Really romantic, full of deep intimacy.

Speaker 2: Wow.

Speaker 1: Just emotional for the first couple of hours, and then it became very deeply intimate.

Speaker 1: Okay.

Speaker 1: Like, wow.

Speaker 1: In other ways.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: But yeah, but we were very lucky, right?

Speaker 1: In the way, like we had this magical coming together and that continued, right?

Speaker 1: It continued after we left the artificial world that is a retreat center where you're not in your day-to-day life.

Speaker 1: You get to be yourself at best, run around naked, dancing, massaging, you know, with hippies.

Speaker 1: We didn't traumatize each other with dolphin dancing naked with other people underwater, looking at their junk, right?

Speaker 1: That was months later.

Speaker 1: But anyway, so that was brilliant.

Speaker 1: And we did an amazing job at accidentally on purpose, like going at it and getting pregnant.

Speaker 2: Yes.

Speaker 2: We got pregnant early.

Speaker 2: We were not using.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: I don't even know how many months we were together.

Speaker 1: You think I should come prepared, but we got pregnant probably, I don't know, six to nine months after we met.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 2: Don't try to nine months.

Speaker 1: I have no idea.

Speaker 2: It was six months.

Speaker 1: Okay.

Speaker 2: But like we were deeply in love, but that's very unconventional.

Speaker 2: Like most people are going to be like, right.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: But look, I was 40.

Speaker 1: I was, I was ready.

Speaker 2: I think it was 42.

Speaker 1: 42.

Speaker 1: So yeah.

Speaker 1: I don't know.

Speaker 1: You know, the details, I roughly know details, but like, so I was 42, I was ready.

Speaker 1: I had enough failed relationships that be able to look in the mirror and go, ah, for fuck's sake, I'm not getting this relationship thing together.

Speaker 1: And having a family was really important to me.

Speaker 1: And so I met you, you were wonderful.

Speaker 1: And then not only were you wonderful, because wonderful is great, but you're actually no offense to anyone else.

Speaker 1: You're actually relatively sane.

Speaker 1: Like you just weren't like really volatile.

Speaker 2: Okay.

Speaker 2: Let's be real.

Speaker 2: What Figs is talking about is he introduced me to a term called bunny boiling.

Speaker 2: He's like, one time I went over to your house and we're like, going to have a nice weekend.

Speaker 2: And you're like, you're looking at me.

Speaker 2: I'm like, what's why are you looking at me?

Speaker 2: And you're like, I'm just trying to see if you're a bunny boiler.

Speaker 1: Yeah, bunny boiler is a reference to fatal attraction where you know, the woman goes crazy, loses her mind.

Speaker 1: And in her moment of losing her mind of unrequited love or being dropped kicked to the curb, and she's not happy with it.

Speaker 1: She gets so upset that she gets the guy's child's bunny rabbit and boils it in a pot.

Speaker 1: And so like, it's not fair, right?

Speaker 1: Like it's not, it's terrible, right?

Speaker 1: Like, I'm really sorry.

Speaker 2: Is this a good time to tell the viewers that we actually have a bunny now?

Speaker 1: Oh my god.

Speaker 1: Yeah, we adopted a bunny.

Speaker 1: I'm not happy about it.

Speaker 1: That's a, by the way, that could be its own episode how I've ended up as a fish parent and a bunny parent.

Speaker 1: I'm primary fish parent.

Speaker 1: I'm fighting not to be primary bunny parent.

Speaker 1: But you're not having none of it.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: But but look, let's not get distracted.

Speaker 1: Okay, look, you were wonderful in many ways.

Speaker 1: And it was obvious to me really early that you were someone that I could not only like, have fun, you know, like massages and like naked hot tubbing and like, you know, that other stuff that happens after that.

Speaker 2: Oh, wow.

Speaker 1: Like, but that we could actually really create a life together.

Speaker 1: And you wouldn't boil any bunnies.

Speaker 2: We could dress up like bunnies together and do naughty things.

Speaker 1: But boy, we are rabbit.

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 1: Maybe we'll do that for Halloween.

Speaker 2: Let's do it right now.

Speaker 1: Bunny family.

Speaker 1: No, not quite now.

Speaker 2: Okay.

Speaker 1: So look, we get together, we're going at it like rabbits.

Speaker 1: And we luckily we did make a decision we were all right, we were committed to being together and to move in together live together prior to discovering we got pregnant.

Speaker 1: But see, just even think that's really important.

Speaker 1: The reason I make a big point to that is that that's a huge like, you know, a lot of the shame I have, like I always tell people we decided, we decided to live together before we got pregnant, we had committed to each other like, okay, whatever.

Speaker 1: Yeah, I know.

Speaker 1: I'm going to shout that part out.

Speaker 1: Like, yeah, I just can feel judged, which obviously means I have that place of judgment inside myself.

Speaker 1: And I want to talk about where that comes from, right inside of me.

Speaker 1: But anyway, so we have already committed to living together.

Speaker 1: Remember that?

Speaker 2: Well, it was really meaningful to me.

Speaker 2: Let me just say like, as a pursuer, if it and like, listen, you might be thinking about your relationship and be like, you know what, we got pregnant, and then we had to come in like, that's okay, we find our way, or life chooses us or we don't wear protection, whatever it is.

Speaker 2: figs and I did have definitely a powerful moment we were about to break I was about to kick his ass to the curb.

Speaker 2: Okay, but no, this man didn't know that.

Speaker 2: He figured it out.

Speaker 2: He figured it out.

Speaker 2: And we we did commit before we found out that we were pregnant.

Speaker 2: And then we were pregnant.

Speaker 2: Yeah, we decided to go.

Speaker 1: Yeah, well, we were instantly both really excited about being pregnant, too.

Speaker 1: Right?

Speaker 1: Like we was like, I was excited.

Speaker 1: You're excited.

Speaker 1: And honestly, we never I don't get hope for both of us.

Speaker 1: You correct me.

Speaker 1: I never doubted or look back for a second.

Speaker 1: I was just so excited.

Speaker 1: So happy, full on.

Speaker 1: Let's do this.

Speaker 1: Team Teal figs.

Speaker 2: Team awesome.

Speaker 1: Awesome.

Speaker 2: Yeah, we like we like cheesy photos.

Speaker 1: And yeah, we were just we're all in.

Speaker 2: Yeah, we were just right.

Speaker 1: Excited.

Speaker 1: Brilliant, right?

Speaker 1: And then we you know, we get married.

Speaker 1: Wow.

Speaker 2: Well, that we had Okay, I'm gonna say it.

Speaker 2: We had a child before we got married.

Speaker 1: Oh, yeah.

Speaker 1: Well, that's what I mean.

Speaker 1: Sorry.

Speaker 1: Sorry.

Speaker 2: Oh, yeah.

Speaker 2: Like no one knows.

Speaker 1: Oh, yeah.

Speaker 1: Grace was born before we got married.

Speaker 1: Yes.

Speaker 1: Grace was born before we got what's it like to say that right now?

Speaker 1: Well, it's so funny.

Speaker 1: I'll say was just going through my head.

Speaker 1: I was just actually the parallel with my conception.

Speaker 1: I believe my mother was pregnant with me when she married my dad.

Speaker 1: Okay, so this is where like, it gets into like, much deeper, older stuff for me, right?

Speaker 1: And where I'm from Ireland, Catholic Ireland, all that stuff.

Speaker 1: But so yes, we had Grace Holmberg.

Speaker 1: Teal is a friggin hero, right?

Speaker 1: Any like, like anyone that gives birth a hero, right?

Speaker 1: But obviously Holmberg, I got to be there.

Speaker 1: And I was scared.

Speaker 1: While Teal was being a warrior, screaming, shouting, you know, biting me.

Speaker 2: And she's pushing, making him sing.

Speaker 1: Oh, God, that's right.

Speaker 1: They really had to embarrass me make me sing in front of the midwives.

Speaker 2: That was the second birth.

Speaker 1: So look, Grace is born, we get married and like when Grace is five months old, five months old.

Speaker 1: And look, that was all good.

Speaker 1: Like at the time, like I was fine with it.

Speaker 1: But it's funny, I don't realize how much it buried away.

Speaker 1: That I, I can still feel as soon as people ask me that question, how long have you been together?

Speaker 1: I'm like, for fuck's sake, like this question touches on Oh, did you conceive?

Speaker 1: Did you have a baby before you got married?

Speaker 2: Like mathematicians?

Speaker 2: They're like, yeah, then how many and how many?

Speaker 1: Like, and some people that obviously don't have the cultural shame, they're like, Oh, so Grace was conceived out of wedlock, right?

Speaker 2: Like, they joke, they joke.

Speaker 2: Because they think, Oh, Teal and figs.

Speaker 2: They're so alternative.

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 2: But figs, there's something that like, really important happens.

Speaker 1: Yeah, I feel we're less worthy as a couple.

Speaker 1: I feel it touches a place of relationship shame, not just personal shame, but it's interesting.

Speaker 1: I haven't thought of it this way.

Speaker 1: I feel like I feel protective of our relationship and being judged by other people that we got pregnant before marriage that we have a baby before we were married.

Speaker 1: Now, by the way, look, rationally, as I'm saying that it doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

Speaker 1: But it's just a reality that I have.

Speaker 1: Obviously, some things run deep.

Speaker 1: But here's the reason I wanted to talk to you about it is, I think it's unfortunate how it I think it does have a negative impact on our relationship.

Speaker 1: As you know, I prefer to think and to acknowledge the day we met December 23, or 22.

Speaker 1: Jesus, was it December 24?

Speaker 1: Oh, for flip sake, the 24th, December 24.

Speaker 1: The 23rd is my sister's birthday, right?

Speaker 1: But I prefer to think of our anniversary as the day we met.

Speaker 1: Because it's uncomplicated.

Speaker 1: Right?

Speaker 1: It's it has no baggage.

Speaker 1: We met December 24.

Speaker 1: Year, I don't even know.

Speaker 1: Yeah, whatever year was right.

Speaker 1: Like it was so bad, right with the exact details.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: But that's uncomplicated.

Speaker 1: Whereas celebrating our wedding anniversary, it touches this place of relational shame that we're less worthy than other relationships.

Speaker 1: So I have, I have been remiss in celebrating and being available to celebrate our wedding anniversary, even if not consciously, I just, there's a part of me that would be happy if I never had to think about our wedding anniversary.

Speaker 1: Again, not that our wedding itself wasn't amazing.

Speaker 1: It was beautiful.

Speaker 1: I had an amazing time with you.

Speaker 1: It was so fun.

Speaker 1: Like it was, it was great in every way.

Speaker 1: But it touches this sense of unworthiness that we're not as good as other couples.

Speaker 1: Right?

Speaker 1: Because of it.

Speaker 1: And so that's the main reason I wanted to do this with you.

Speaker 1: And it's not just me talking about my Irish Catholic, you can take the boy out of Ireland and out of Catholicism and move them all the way, the most remote island chain in the world, but they're fucking Catholic bullshit.

Speaker 1: Irish shame is still inside me.

Speaker 1: Like on some level, even me, you know, I look liberated from it.

Speaker 1: I'm not fully liberated from it.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: But But look, I want to get into that a bit more.

Speaker 1: But look, I'm sorry that my stuff means that I closed down off celebrating our wedding anniversary.

Speaker 2: Thank you.

Speaker 1: I'm hoping doing this, by the way, actually, this is a kind of a cleansing and a liberating.

Speaker 2: I like that.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 2: And you know, I think, I don't know, I feel a little protective of you right now, just because, again, I think you're taking a lot of ownership for something that is a big social force.

Speaker 2: And obviously, Ireland is brilliant.

Speaker 2: And there's so much richness and poetry and celebration, and that there also are some shadows that are pretty, pretty hard.

Speaker 2: And here's where, I mean, yes, you and I intersect on this, not because I mean, in fact, I'm not a very big, like anniversary person.

Speaker 1: And you're a big birthday person.

Speaker 1: I'm terrified on your birthday.

Speaker 1: I'm so scared of not getting your birthday right.

Speaker 2: That's right.

Speaker 2: Okay, so I have my ways where I make candles.

Speaker 2: But I would like to just say, like, speaking of culture is just like a tiny little tidbit in in sort of the waterfall of where I want to go with figs with this is, I grew up in a highly unconventional household.

Speaker 2: Right?

Speaker 2: Where like, I, I did not like knowing, like, oh, there's like a risk.

Speaker 2: I see.

Speaker 2: I don't even know.

Speaker 2: Like, I'm embarrassed to be like, Oh, yeah, there's a risk.

Speaker 2: There's like a meal that happened.

Speaker 1: Oh, the receptor, like the rehearsal dinner.

Speaker 1: You don't know.

Speaker 2: Everyone knows.

Speaker 2: No, I don't.

Speaker 1: I didn't even know how to use a knife and fork.

Speaker 1: Let's be honest.

Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, I'm really good with chopsticks.

Speaker 1: And that's way more advanced.

Speaker 1: That is okay.

Speaker 2: No, but no, but seriously, so I, I have, I had, I grew up here in Hawaii.

Speaker 2: I grew up here in Hawaii, single mom, scientist, so many amazing values.

Speaker 2: But like, you know, there's like a lot of like gender norms that I'm not informed with.

Speaker 2: There's a lot of traditional parts of culture and society.

Speaker 1: You had no religious overhang.

Speaker 2: No religious overhang.

Speaker 1: Shame in the eyes of God.

Speaker 2: Exactly.

Speaker 2: Like there's ways that there was just not a lot of like socially informed parts of life for me.

Speaker 2: And I even have trouble as you're saying it now, like my immediate places, I almost like I've learned not to minimize this because it is a big deal for you.

Speaker 2: And it helps me understand, like it hurts you and it's not something that hurts me, but it, because it hurts you, it hurts me.

Speaker 2: And so I'm glad, like you're saying, we're worshiping at the altar.

Speaker 2: Like we're, we're bringing it in to kind of being like, this is a challenge for us.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: It's a challenge.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: It just means that because I can get constricted, um, cause you know, once you, once you feel a little shame on teaching, like I kind of constrict, I'm not as available to be in which sucks.

Speaker 1: Cause like you run a bare foot, there's no church to make you feel shit about yourself.

Speaker 1: You don't mind if you're eating beans and rice with your fingertips, you don't have to hold a knife and fork in the right hand.

Speaker 1: Like, like, by the way, it's even crazy.

Speaker 1: Like just thinking like, you know, people like from Island and I don't even realize how crazy this is.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: We like grew up to know the moment you drop your knife, you change how you hold your fork in your hand.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: There's all these rules about how you have to be in life.

Speaker 2: It's an amazing eater.

Speaker 1: I want, like, I maybe every single person where I'm from learned how to eat.

Speaker 2: But like you guys here, it's like, it's really beautiful.

Speaker 2: It's like artistry.

Speaker 1: Thank you.

Speaker 1: That's weird, but beautiful eater.

Speaker 1: Um, kind of, I've had a lot of practice.

Speaker 1: It is my number one pastime, right?

Speaker 1: My number one drug of choice, let's be honest, is food, which are, you know, food is love.

Speaker 1: Okay.

Speaker 1: But, but so here's the thing.

Speaker 1: I'd rather never celebrate our wedding anniversary.

Speaker 1: I'm hoping by doing this podcast, it actually liberates me a little bit, which kind of want to get into like, so where does this come from inside me?

Speaker 1: Well, I obviously have a place of shame that is in me, like of unworthiness, not enoughness.

Speaker 1: And of course, there's going to be a context in which I get in touch with that shame of unworthiness of my own in regards to our relationship.

Speaker 1: So I then make our relationship unworthy.

Speaker 1: And my number one context in which Oh, our relationship is unworthy.

Speaker 1: Oh, we weren't together for years before we conceived.

Speaker 1: Oh, we weren't married when we conceived.

Speaker 1: We weren't married when we had a baby, right?

Speaker 1: So that touches shame that's already inside me.

Speaker 1: It's not actually just shame about conception before marriage, birth before marriage.

Speaker 1: I actually have this place of unworthiness inside me.

Speaker 1: It was okay, like, you know, without going too much into it.

Speaker 1: Why?

Speaker 1: Look, I am the son of an alcoholic, heartbroken mother, single mom.

Speaker 1: And I felt very ashamed as a kid.

Speaker 1: And of course, I felt guilty for being ashamed.

Speaker 1: I felt like it's a betrayal of my mother for being ashamed.

Speaker 1: There were times when I was delighted I didn't have a father around because it meant I had a built in excuse for why I was a poorer kid than the other kids in the private schools.

Speaker 1: I went to you know, the university like I went to Trinity College Dublin and I for my sins, I made sure I hung out with all the, you know, the private school kids at college.

Speaker 1: So I spent a lot of my life really being ashamed deeply of who I am and where I'm from.

Speaker 1: At the most fundamental level.

Speaker 1: I've been hiding, hiding, hiding, living a secret that I am son of alcoholic, single parent home.

Speaker 1: And I'm actually less worthy than everybody else.

Speaker 1: Right that I felt that deeply inside of me.

Speaker 1: And you know, obviously, I have moments where I don't feel that and I don't even realize how much I try and hide who I am.

Speaker 1: Right?

Speaker 1: You and I get to live a world where you know, everything is amazing.

Speaker 1: And the wedding anniversary touches that deeper place inside of me.

Speaker 1: And the only thing I just want to say about what I've just really been in touch recently, like a lot of people in Ireland are and people that live in the Irish diaspora look more and more is coming out about I'm sure many of you heard about the mother and baby homes, right?

Speaker 1: Where young women that got pregnant out of wedlock, they were sent to these mother and baby homes.

Speaker 1: Yeah, babies, you know, where we know were killed, were left to die, were neglected, were buried secretly in gardens.

Speaker 1: There's was so much sexual abuse of men and women.

Speaker 1: And right now, in particular, there's a lot coming about from a lot of the Catholic schools and some of the most prestigious Catholic schools, my friends that went through this, these, you know, prestigious Catholic schools that they were sexually abused throughout their childhood.

Speaker 1: So, you know, a shocking percentage of the Irish population was sexually abused.

Speaker 1: Physical abuse is so natural, it was so normal, right?

Speaker 1: And by your teachers back in the 70s, 60s, 50s, you know, and I would have been elementary school in the 70s, that that's only starting to come out really now that people were physically abused in Ireland by their teachers, because it was just like, sure, it's not the way it is.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: So there's, there's just so much with the Catholic Church in collusion with the state, putting pressure on families to that not only were people being abused by the state and by the church, but then the families would make those children hide the secret, they would have been told and made to hide the shame of the family.

Speaker 1: And so the thing that makes my blood boil is when kids, children are made explicitly or implicitly to keep the secret for their parent, right, whether that's the church's secret, the state's secret, my family's secret, that the grownups, the supposed adult in the room, I'm not willing to actually face what I did wrong and won't go through the discomfort today.

Speaker 1: So I will get the victim to carry for me my shame.

Speaker 1: So what happens a lot when people are carrying shame, it's not their shame, it was actually someone else's misdeeds.

Speaker 1: And you end up carrying it.

Speaker 1: So look, I carry inside me even though, like, I feel guilty almost talking about this, because

Speaker 1: it's so small compared to some of the sexual abuse, physical abuse, people that went through

Speaker 1: mother and baby homes, like what they went through, people who are still being denied by their

Speaker 1: biological parents to this day, because it's too big of a shame for the parents so that the child

Speaker 1: has to carry the shame of their existence, the non-acceptance of their existence alone,

Speaker 1: because their biological parents can't deal with it.

Speaker 1: And so there's a part of me that feels almost guilty, that mine is, it's too small, right, to name, right, that I carry inside me that to be a bastard, I was conceived out of wedlock, I was in my mom's belly when she got married, her womb, right, and I carry that shame.

Speaker 1: My grandmother, on my mother's side, God rest her soul, had wanted to lie about what my birthday was when I was a kid, and it wasn't uncommon that my birthday would not be celebrated, because my birthday was a reminder of the shame of my mother conceiving out of wedlock and being married before, like, you know, conception.

Speaker 1: So it's interesting just to make the parallels that I still have that inside me, and I am doing the same thing of this, like, Jesus, if I could just not think about the wedding anniversary date, and when people ask me about it, I can just kind of avoid the topic that I'm still keeping secrets.

Speaker 1: I'm keeping other people's secrets, right, and it's hard to let go of it.

Speaker 1: Yeah, anyway, that's it.

Speaker 1: Sorry, yeah, what was that like?

Speaker 2: I mean, I just feel so much

Speaker 2: love and appreciation for you, and that's, I just, it's like, I just feel in so many ways,

Speaker 2: I'm privileged in so many ways, but I also just feel the privilege of not having

Speaker 2: so much complexity in my cultural background, so much trauma, so much systemic trauma,

Speaker 2: institutional trauma, and I just feel a lot of love for you, because you're where you're at,

Speaker 2: where you're at now, and that you're talking about it.

Speaker 2: It's really brave.

Speaker 2: Thank you.

Speaker 2: It makes me love you more than ever, and I think maybe instead of, like, my MO can be just, okay, you don't want to celebrate the anniversary, we're busy, like, we'll do something different, we do special things every day, but it actually makes me want to, like, love up this part of our relationship in life, and so I'm really glad we're doing this.

Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you.

Speaker 2: I'm really glad you're doing this.

Speaker 1: Yeah, by the way, look, this opens up another, look, it opens up a big, I think, by the way,

Speaker 1: this is so great for our relationship that we're having this conversation, because I think what it

Speaker 1: opens up a path is we can acknowledge our wedding anniversary, but then just hold, like,

Speaker 1: that it is a vulnerable, like, it doesn't have to be, like, there's a way we can acknowledge it,

Speaker 1: celebrate it, and at the same time, not abandon, be violently neglectful of that,

Speaker 1: the fact that it touches this very vulnerable, deep, complex cultural inheritance that,

Speaker 1: that it's just hard to shake off, right?

Speaker 1: There's no point in denying it, right?

Speaker 1: It's here, right?

Speaker 2: It's here, and it's a big deal.

Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a big deal.

Speaker 2: The kind of, like, dominoes of one thing and how you just, and I know there's so much more, and that even what I'm hearing is that there's, as big as this feels in your body and in your direct family with mom and with grandma, that there's also a shame of, like, oh my gosh, I have challenges, and these people had challenges like that.

Speaker 2: You know, it's like, I think a lot of us can relate to, I feel this, and yet, am I even deserving to feel this?

Speaker 2: So I just think all of it is, like, let's envelop it, and it's, I really love what you just said, because it's, you know, sometimes people go to, like, Vegas for their anniversary, right?

Speaker 2: This, I feel, is, like, let's come in, let's come in close, you know, and, like, look into each other's eyes, and, like, light a candle, and just, like, I mean, it doesn't have to be.

Speaker 2: Light a candle.

Speaker 2: I don't know.

Speaker 1: A candle that you made yourself.

Speaker 2: Right, like, we do our own Waldorfian beeswax candle, but no, no, but it makes me just have that feeling of, like, this is, like, sacred.

Speaker 1: Kind and loving.

Speaker 2: Kind, loving, and, like, and that there's, like, grief.

Speaker 2: It doesn't, it's not, like, hmm.

Speaker 2: It's complicated.

Speaker 2: It's, like, wow, anniversary.

Speaker 1: Yeah, and, by the way, for the listeners now, they know, too.

Speaker 1: If they thought I was getting too big for my britches, when they meet me out in the world, they can just say, so, so, like, when did you get, when did you meet, when did you get married?

Speaker 1: You can put me on the back foot instantly.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: By just asking me, when did you get married again, relative to when you met each other?

Speaker 1: Right?

Speaker 1: You can use this against me.

Speaker 2: That's, that's what I'm sure every listener is trying to do.

Speaker 2: They're like, yes, we are looking to best you, Faith.

Speaker 1: Yeah, but, but look, there is a part of me that thinks, like, people, look, because I have this inside me.

Speaker 1: Like, like, if I meet some couple and they've got, like, like, the guy has long flowing locks.

Speaker 1: I just lifted my hat up to show my bald head, right?

Speaker 1: Like, I'm looking at him.

Speaker 1: He's got beautiful blue eyes.

Speaker 1: Like, I would kiss him.

Speaker 1: Like, you know, you know.

Speaker 2: Okay.

Speaker 1: Whoa, whoa, I'm having a discovery.

Speaker 2: I'm aroused.

Speaker 1: Not exactly, but I'm kidding.

Speaker 1: But like, and then I discover, right, I discover he's missing his pinky finger.

Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, great.

Speaker 1: Right?

Speaker 1: Do you know what I mean?

Speaker 1: Like, they're, I'm making that up, a silly thing.

Speaker 1: But there is a way sometimes where I can feel like, you know, that person is so much better at paddling than me.

Speaker 1: And then I see that their butt crack shows and their board shorts.

Speaker 1: And I'm like, good.

Speaker 1: I'm glad that they're like, they have something like that is challenging or crap about them.

Speaker 1: And so I do, I'm sorry, I do have a story that people, I know this is a manifestation of my own shame.

Speaker 1: Like, it doesn't really matter.

Speaker 1: But I do have a story that people use finding this information as a way to pick themselves up by seeing us as less than.

Speaker 1: That's probably my own, like, freaking threatened little self.

Speaker 2: But yeah, there's core wounds in that.

Speaker 2: Like, the world is dangerous.

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 2: And I think we all can feel that sometimes.

Speaker 2: And that there's, I think this ties into something that this is maybe for the next one, but like elements of belonging and other ways that, you know, I don't belong or I don't deserve or I'm different.

Speaker 2: And that, you know, there's sort of like the birthright experience of like, I actually, I actually can feel undeserving.

Speaker 2: And in reality, if I really challenge the things I am deserving, not because I haven't gone through hard things or have privileges that other people don't have, but because that's like something that I deserve to have as a human being.

Speaker 2: And that gets healed in relationship, right?

Speaker 2: That feeling of I'm not deserving.

Speaker 2: I'm not safe.

Speaker 2: It is a dangerous world.

Speaker 2: That was, you were hurt in society.

Speaker 2: And this is where we heal.

Speaker 2: So this is a choice that you're making to put yourself out there.

Speaker 2: And it's kind of scary.

Speaker 2: Like, even right now, you're feeling like, you know, could this be someone besting me?

Speaker 2: And I know you're joking and I know that's not like.

Speaker 1: Well, I'm joking, but I mean, look, I guess I would just want to name that a compass of shame, right?

Speaker 1: Attack self, attack other, deny there's a problem or collapse.

Speaker 1: And there is a part of me that can create in my mind when my shame is touched, negative intention by the other person that would go into the attack other.

Speaker 1: They're asked, they're doing their math right now so they can feel better about themselves relative to finding something bad about us, right?

Speaker 1: That is something I do.

Speaker 1: And like, just being totally honest, that is a perception I have when my shame is touched, right?

Speaker 1: And it makes sense, right?

Speaker 1: And it's good to know.

Speaker 1: And by the way, there's the liberation from the compass of shame, attacking yourself, attacking someone else, denying there's a problem or collapsing is by feeling the victimhood, the pain and sharing the pain and giving that part of yourself.

Speaker 1: The one that's actually hurting and feels ashamed, the chance to be loved as an ashamed person, not to get rid of it and to be healed, but the shamed one could be loved as the one that feels ashamed.

Speaker 1: And yeah, I know you're so good at loving me.

Speaker 1: Thank you.

Speaker 1: Um, I'll try and let it in.

Speaker 1: So, but anyway, look, I'm glad we talked about it.

Speaker 1: Jesus.

Speaker 1: That was Jesus, Mary and Joseph.

Speaker 2: Jesus, Mary and Joseph.

Speaker 1: Oh, Jesus, Mary and Joseph.

Speaker 2: Oh, Janie Mackers.

Speaker 2: Hey, I think you're, I think you're amazing.

Speaker 2: And yeah, I don't know.

Speaker 2: It's, I'm not, it's like I'm integrating what you're saying and I just feel like it's really brave and you know, I'd like to just continue to think about this, but I'm just really grateful.

Speaker 2: I'm grateful for the gift that you're offering to yourself by naming some shame that comes up for you and that for also calling forth, you know, a culture that did you right in a lot of ways, but did you wrong?

Speaker 1: Ireland is amazing.

Speaker 1: I'm so proud to be Irish.

Speaker 1: I love it.

Speaker 1: You know me, I still, what was I telling the kids last night?

Speaker 1: The reason I didn't have kids till later in life is until I met your mom, I was dancing on tables and singing.

Speaker 1: And you know, that kind of like, and you can see the kids light up and the kids then are getting up on the table.

Speaker 1: We're in the middle of dinner.

Speaker 1: They're getting up on the table, going to dance and sing right now.

Speaker 1: Go on there now.

Speaker 1: Go on you boy.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Look, there's so much that I got from being Irish.

Speaker 1: That is just so precious.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: And there's a shadow.

Speaker 2: And there's a shadow and there's a lot of hard parts of that.

Speaker 2: So thanks for relating it to our relationship.

Speaker 2: And you know, you apologized to me at one point, but I think if anything.

Speaker 1: Many times.

Speaker 2: And there will be more.

Speaker 2: No, but I, I mean, I, I'm holding this like image of us just feeling close and coming together as like, uh, as a, a way to honor on our anniversary, us clearly, but also a lot of other parts.

Speaker 1: I don't even know when it is.

Speaker 1: August ish.

Speaker 1: Something.

Speaker 1: August something.

Speaker 1: We'll have to work it out when it, is it August 11th?

Speaker 2: Yes.

Speaker 1: So now I'm going to remember August 11th.

Speaker 2: An elephant never forgets.

Speaker 1: We'll make a point of celebrating it next year and sharing like a email or something to the news list.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Or maybe we'll even do an episode, uh, anniversary.

Speaker 2: That's a good idea.

Speaker 1: Here, come here.

Speaker 1: The last thing I was going to say.

Speaker 1: So look, this is my shame, our wedding anniversary.

Speaker 1: The fact that I was conceived at a wedlock, yada, yada, yada.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Our children were our, our children, our first child, our daughter was conceived at a wedlock.

Speaker 1: Whoa, you got two in at a wedlock.

Speaker 1: But like, but our first was conceived at a wedlock.

Speaker 1: That touches my shame.

Speaker 1: But here's the crazy thing.

Speaker 1: Every human being has shame inside them is something.

Speaker 1: And you never know what touches someone else's shame.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: So it's just be mindful that you could be talking about something that you think is totally innocuous.

Speaker 1: It's nothing at all.

Speaker 1: And lo and behold, it touches the other person's shame.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: So if you think what I get ashamed of is crazy, you probably have something.

Speaker 1: Other people have something that everyone else goes, what's the big deal?

Speaker 1: Like, I don't care about being bald.

Speaker 1: Other people, they really get it.

Speaker 1: I have a lot of shame that they're bald.

Speaker 1: You gave a great example one time, Tia, where I was talking to a friend about how skinny he looked, how much weight he'd lost.

Speaker 1: A guy, you kind of nudged me, took me to the side and go, I actually think that's, like, that is actually an embarrassing thing for him.

Speaker 2: Right.

Speaker 1: Because I'm so used to, like, losing weight, I would be fucking, like, celebrating.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: You know, whereas other people, they actually may be embarrassed that they're, for a guy, like, skinny.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: And so it's amazing.

Speaker 1: Like, we don't always know when we're touching on someone else's shame spot.

Speaker 1: And other people don't necessarily, they're not doing it on purpose, but they rub up against our shame spot.

Speaker 1: Look how excited you guys are.

Speaker 2: Let's go rub up against each other.

Speaker 2: I rub up against you.

Speaker 2: Vulnerability is sexy.

Speaker 2: So Figs just did something.

Speaker 1: Oh, God.

Speaker 2: He just did something.

Speaker 1: I think we're not, you have a session.

Speaker 1: I have a business meeting.

Speaker 2: Let's just be clear.

Speaker 2: This is the on-ramp.

Speaker 1: We actually do have to, you can probably, oh, Jesus, we have four minutes before we have to work.

Speaker 2: Love you all.

Speaker 2: And hey, love you.

Speaker 2: That was brave.

Speaker 1: Love you.

Speaker 2: Really brave.

Speaker 1: Thank you.

Speaker 1: Hey, thanks for listening.

Speaker 1: Watching.

Speaker 1: You're peacing out.

Speaker 1: You're not Shaka.

Speaker 2: No, I was doing like...

Speaker 1: Like very cool.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: But yeah, listen, subscribe, whatever those other things I'm supposed to say for marketing.

Speaker 1: Catch you next episode.

Speaker 1: We're back recording.

Speaker 2: Yes, we are.

Speaker 2: Ask us your questions.

Speaker 2: Tell us what you think about this podcast.

Speaker 2: And yeah, give us some topics to talk about.

Speaker 1: Let's do that.

Speaker 1: Bye.

Speaker 2: Bye.

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