Speaker 1: These are all places that we get to temporarily, and then we lose it.

Speaker 1: And then we have to do the work to get back there again.

Speaker 1: Welcome back to Come Here to Me.

Speaker 1: I'm joined today by Steph, our Creative Director here at Empathy.

Speaker 1: I'm the producer of the Come Here to Me podcast.

Speaker 1: Welcome, Steph.

Speaker 1: Hi, thanks for having me back here to introduce you to the internet once more.

Speaker 1: Thank you.

Speaker 1: It's really good to have you hold my hand as we do this.

Speaker 1: And today we're going to do something a little different.

Speaker 1: We're going to do some commentary on a TikTok video that tells us about 10 signs that you're in a good relationship.

Speaker 1: So I'm excited.

Speaker 1: So the person we're going to take a look at is Therapy Jeff on TikTok, Jeff Gunther.

Speaker 1: And he's an LPC with almost 3 million followers on TikTok.

Speaker 1: And he actually has a new book titled Big Dating Energy, how to create lasting love by tapping into your authentic self.

Speaker 1: So I thought it would be a good time to take a look at his relationship advice and how it compares to the empathy method.

Speaker 1: And I'm really curious to see what you think.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: And by the way, I love Therapy Jeff.

Speaker 1: He's wonderful, great, lovely, great advice, lovely personality and helping so many people.

Speaker 2: 10 signs you're in a healthy relationship.

Speaker 2: One, you know what your partner doesn't like about you and that they found acceptance about it.

Speaker 2: Two, you're able to participate in co-regulation.

Speaker 2: So when one person is activated, the other can act as a common source that will help ground you.

Speaker 2: Three, you feel the most loved and super connected when you're being your authentic self.

Speaker 2: Four, you're interdependent on each other, which means you feel solid in the bond you share while maintaining a strong sense of self.

Speaker 2: Five, you feel safe saying no or setting a boundary and confident it will be respected.

Speaker 2: Six, you know that if your perspectives are different about a specific event, that they can both be true and valid.

Speaker 2: Seven, physical intimacy feels playful, safe and confident.

Speaker 2: Eight, you're able to repair and reconnect after a fight and learn from the experience.

Speaker 2: Nine, you're being relationally and emotionally challenged, which can feel a bit uncomfortable at times, but it's good for your overall development.

Speaker 2: Ten, you feel like your partner sees you in a really positive light.

Speaker 1: Nice.

Speaker 2: There it was.

Speaker 1: So I have, I did watch this with Teal, my wife, also a couples therapist here at Empathy.

Speaker 1: If any of the listeners haven't, our viewers haven't seen previous episodes and we both just were laughing a lot, right?

Speaker 1: With all due respect to Therapy Jeff.

Speaker 1: The first big takeaway, it sounds like there aren't too many relationships in the that would get over the threshold of having all 10 of those, or even the majority of those as a permanent state in their relationship.

Speaker 1: A lot of the work we do with couples is we're trying to help out here at Empathy, right?

Speaker 1: And myself as a couples therapist and all the other therapists on the team, we're trying to help people accept who they are, right?

Speaker 1: We do want people to be able to change, but we're trying to get that change from accepting who you are as a person, surrendering to it, accepting who your partner is, surrendering to it, and then loving yourself and each other from that place of understanding where we're both hurt people, we get threatened, we have reactions.

Speaker 1: And what those reactions are going to make us look like, the very opposite of what Therapy Jeff is saying is a good relationship.

Speaker 1: Almost like immediately, the list of 10 ways you know you're in a good relationship, if you're striving to meet those 10 things, right, those 10 tips, it's almost like you're in a present moment rejection of your current relationship, you're in a current moment rejection of yourself, your partner and your relationship.

Speaker 1: And weirdly, that's what we have to change.

Speaker 1: We don't actually have to get you to weirdly, you go through those 10 things, and we've actually met every one of those criteria.

Speaker 1: The most important thing is we come to accept Oh my god, no wonder we haven't met these criteria.

Speaker 1: No wonder it's actually very hard for my partner.

Speaker 1: Yeah, my partner knows what they don't like about me.

Speaker 1: And it's actually is hard for them to accept the same way.

Speaker 1: It's hard for me, by the way, which is weird, like I didn't mention, if you're the person listening, it's good for you to know what you don't like about your partner, and you've accepted it, right?

Speaker 1: Every single one of the points, I think the short of it is the very act of striving to get there means you're doing more harm to your relationship than good.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: So like trying to be a good partner thing that you've talked about before.

Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a little paradoxical, right?

Speaker 1: If you're trying to make yourself a good partner, if you're trying to make your partner a good partner, or you're trying to make us into a good relationship, then you're probably doing more harm than good.

Speaker 1: Now, weirdly, you will end up as a better partner, your partner will end up as a better partner, and you will end up as a better relationship by moving to accept and surrender to who we are and find each other in this uncomfortable, unresolved place.

Speaker 1: And we'll go through the 10 points, right?

Speaker 1: One by one.

Speaker 1: But if we pick any one of them, like as opposed to your goal is to get to a place that sexual intimacy, intimate play, it's playful, safe and confident, right?

Speaker 1: That's too high a bar for a couple to reach that would make it a good relationship.

Speaker 1: I would say a more realistic bar would be it is understandable.

Speaker 1: I accept, my partner accepts, we accept together that sex and intimacy is actually a scary place.

Speaker 1: And us being scared and one of us or both of us not feel confident in sexual intimacy is totally fine.

Speaker 1: And we have to stop rejecting our sex life as saying it's bad, or isn't good enough yet.

Speaker 1: Until we get to a place that we feel confident, you may never, you may never get to a place where sexual intimacy is a confident place for you, yourself, your partner, and are both of you together, short of taking, you know, like some mood enhancing drugs, right?

Speaker 1: And that's okay.

Speaker 1: So instead of striving to get to a place that we both feel confident in sex, we actually strive to get to a place that we accept that it isn't a place of confidence.

Speaker 1: It's actually a vulnerable, scary place for both of us.

Speaker 1: And we're going to meet each other and still have sex with each other, even though it's actually kind of scary.

Speaker 1: And it's hard to feel confident here.

Speaker 1: So I don't know if you noticed completely different, let's say if you had two different altars to pray at, one is I'm we're going to become like confident people in sex.

Speaker 1: And it's going to be unbelievably playful, right?

Speaker 1: You know, you know, creative.

Speaker 1: And the other is, hey, actually, you know, sex is vulnerable for both of us, maybe in different ways, but it is actually vulnerable.

Speaker 1: Let's pray at the altar of we're going to come to accept that we are vulnerable people in sex.

Speaker 1: And we're going to let ourselves be vulnerable people in sex.

Speaker 1: And so now our vulnerability belongs inside our sex life.

Speaker 1: So I'm, I'm imploring people, you know, I have a point of that they choose to pray at that second altar.

Speaker 1: Right?

Speaker 1: And that's how we improve our relationship is we give up striving for, let's be confident sexual people.

Speaker 1: Right?

Speaker 1: And weirdly, I whispered this part, you'll actually become more confident.

Speaker 1: By doing this, let's accept that it is a vulnerable place.

Speaker 1: And we and it makes it a safe place for us to keep showing up with each other.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: You know, I can see how very quickly this sort of framework of trying to like achieve a healthy relationship and you know, it's a tick tock, the format has a way of lending itself towards simplification.

Speaker 1: And we've experienced this in trying to make stuff too.

Speaker 1: But I can see how very quickly you're kind of boxing in the human condition and the kinds of things that you want to have within a relationship.

Speaker 1: So I'm really interested to see what are the ways even if you agree or disagree with each point from the empathy perspective, how somebody might try to achieve that thing and then actually kind of shoot themselves in the foot.

Speaker 2: One, you know what your partner doesn't like about you, and that they found acceptance about it.

Speaker 1: I think that's that's fair, right?

Speaker 1: As long as it's both, right?

Speaker 1: It's not just your partner, it's both of you, both of you know, what you don't like, as in what's activating, what's triggering about the other person's behavior, and you've come to acceptance of it.

Speaker 1: I think that's fair.

Speaker 1: Obviously, you know, is a one minute tick tock, but I'm assuming what he means by acceptance is, you know, this behavior of theirs is a character strategy.

Speaker 1: It's a way they defend themselves protest in the world and not getting mad.

Speaker 1: And it's only there because the person is actually hurt or vulnerable inside.

Speaker 1: And because you get to know their hurt vulnerable self, you don't take their behavior you don't like about them so seriously, because you actually love their vulnerable self.

Speaker 1: And so it's easier for you to come to accept the ways in which your partner acts in ways you do not like, because you know, it comes from a place of, of hurt, and vulnerability.

Speaker 1: It's not actually who they really are.

Speaker 1: As a person.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: But But this is the thing, if you're trying to, I am coming to accept what I don't like about my partner without attaching the behavior you don't like to your own vulnerability.

Speaker 1: That's actually why you don't like it, because it touches your vulnerability.

Speaker 1: And seeing, oh, my partner's behavior, I don't like that the behavior is just what they do to not feel their vulnerability.

Speaker 1: And it turns out, the part of me that's vulnerable, it actually makes sense that their behavior, I don't like it, because it hurts this part of me that is actually quite vulnerable.

Speaker 1: And their behavior makes sense, because they're just trying to protect their vulnerable self.

Speaker 1: And we happen to love our own and each other's vulnerable selves.

Speaker 1: That's the journey that makes it possible to get to this trait of yours that you're always late for something, I do not like it.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: But I get you're always late for something, because that's one of the ways you've been surviving in the world, not showing up on time, because you're actually trying to avoid feeling a particular feeling that is so hard for you.

Speaker 1: Ah, it makes sense.

Speaker 1: You're late, even if it doesn't work out for you.

Speaker 1: You're trying to avoid feeling something when you arrive.

Speaker 1: But of course, when you're late, now that you arrive, I'm upset with you, right?

Speaker 1: But it does, it makes sense.

Speaker 1: Oh, I get it.

Speaker 1: Like, I understand you're someone that got hurt before about arriving somewhere and being in trouble.

Speaker 1: So you put off arriving.

Speaker 1: Ah, it still annoys me.

Speaker 1: But I get the vulnerable you that's being protected by you being late.

Speaker 1: Hmm.

Speaker 1: All right.

Speaker 1: Does that make sense?

Speaker 1: Yeah, it has like a very interdependent, the cycles happening interpretation of the idea of like acceptance of another person, because I could see someone else, you know, watching that and being like, Oh, my partner doesn't accept my thing that I do.

Speaker 1: And then it kind of being used as a mark against the relationship.

Speaker 1: But like, obviously, if they're like, Oh, my partner doesn't accept my thing.

Speaker 1: Therefore, we're not in a happy, healthy relationship.

Speaker 1: Maybe you have a conversation that needs to happen.

Speaker 1: But it's not necessarily because your partner is the one who's wrong for not accepting who you are.

Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1: I mean, look, this is where it's very nuanced.

Speaker 1: If let's just use the example of like, my partner in this made up example is late for everything, right?

Speaker 1: We do a little exploration with the partner that's late for stuff.

Speaker 1: And we discover the partner that's late for stuff, they can be really scared of when they arrive places.

Speaker 1: Because in their life, when they arrive at places, and interact with the world, it's an opportunity for them to discover to be told by the world that you're lacking, you're not good enough.

Speaker 1: You always come up short.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: And so they try and put off as long as possible arriving somewhere.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: And now the behavior so habitual that they actually think that's just who they are.

Speaker 1: I'm just someone that is late for stuff.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: But but that's what that would be really annoying.

Speaker 1: How do you ever accept?

Speaker 1: Oh, I'm just someone that's late.

Speaker 1: Right?

Speaker 1: That's very hard to accept.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: And but if we let's say we get to a place where we realize, oh, you're late, but wait, this isn't actually how you came into the world.

Speaker 1: You started being a late person, because you have this place inside that you're protecting.

Speaker 1: And it seems like being late will delay the inevitable contact in the with the world that will get you more of the hurt that is so painful for you.

Speaker 1: Okay, so we put that together, it's easier to accept, oh, I get it, your lateness, it isn't actually about me.

Speaker 1: It's not a disrespect of me.

Speaker 1: It's this thing that you like a behavior that has become a whole character strategy that you do, in order to protect your own vulnerability.

Speaker 1: And I love that vulnerability in you, right?

Speaker 1: Let's just make the assumption that's true, that puts their behavior in a whole new light and makes it easier to accept their behavior.

Speaker 1: Right?

Speaker 1: Now, let's, you know, let's say your partner cannot accept your behavior.

Speaker 1: Again, let's say there's this look, I'm late, this is who I am, like, you should accept it, you know, you don't like it about me, and you should accept it.

Speaker 1: And that's not fair.

Speaker 1: Because the other thing is also true, you being late probably touches, if it's something your partner doesn't like about you, the reason they don't like you being late, right, they don't like this about you that you're late, is because your lateness touches an attachment significant place for them.

Speaker 1: I'm not a priority to you, you don't consider my feelings.

Speaker 1: I've told you this before, you don't hear me.

Speaker 1: Being late is wrapped in attachment significance.

Speaker 1: It means it actually really hurts at the deepest level when you're late.

Speaker 1: And so of course, they can't accept your lateness.

Speaker 1: Because it's not about lateness in and of itself.

Speaker 1: It's about the emotional significance, the lateness is wrapped in, which is someone that loves me wouldn't be late.

Speaker 1: So now just thinking we put it this way, so that we'd have to pass through, of course, my partner can't accept my lateness, because they interpret my lateness as I don't love them.

Speaker 1: Should they accept the feeling of they're not love?

Speaker 1: No way.

Speaker 1: So so we'd have to pass through the fact that you cannot accept my lateness, I accept that you can't.

Speaker 1: It actually makes sense.

Speaker 1: You can't because it lands inside of you like you're not love.

Speaker 1: Oh my god, I get it.

Speaker 1: No wonder you're angry with me and you can't accept it.

Speaker 1: Right?

Speaker 1: Oh, you know, and like, so and the way you get angry at me for being late, and you make it such a big deal.

Speaker 1: That's actually what I haven't been able to accept about you.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: So now, now we have this possibility that we could mutually we could do acceptance squared, we could have all directional acceptance.

Speaker 1: I see that I'm late, because this is a pattern of behavior I've developed because of the way like I'm not okay inside.

Speaker 1: And I'm always delaying making contact with the world, right?

Speaker 1: I love that part of myself, I see the behavior for flip sake, I see the impact it has on you, it leaves you feeling unloved.

Speaker 1: And then like, and I see now it makes sense why you're like so sensitive about my lateness, and you just never can accept it to me, you're always making me feel bad.

Speaker 1: And then from the other person's perspective, we do the same thing is the same story, right?

Speaker 1: That they're able to see, oh my god, I see that you feel really bad inside.

Speaker 1: No wonder that you're delaying contact with the world that it would manifest as being late.

Speaker 1: And oh my god, I see how it hurts me and leaves me feeling unloved.

Speaker 1: And I see the way I'm now I, I actually give you the feedback from the world that hurts you.

Speaker 1: When you're late, I do scold you, I go, you are bad, bad boy.

Speaker 1: Bad boy.

Speaker 1: Right?

Speaker 1: I wipe your nose in your poop, your lateness.

Speaker 1: And I give you more of the pain through my non acceptance of you that you are trying to avoid.

Speaker 1: Now, both people see it like that.

Speaker 1: Oh, what a tragedy for both of us.

Speaker 1: Now we could have acceptance squared.

Speaker 1: I accept myself, you and us and what we do.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: So now listen, it's a tick tock video and all due respect to like, how in the name of God would you say that in a minute?

Speaker 1: Right?

Speaker 1: Right?

Speaker 1: Like, so in theory, I get it, right?

Speaker 1: I accept, I see what I don't like about the other person, and I accept it.

Speaker 1: But what that actually means the journey both people in the relationship would have to go as individuals and what they'd have to go through as a system together is, it's pretty profound.

Speaker 1: Like it's a like it's, it's a lot of work.

Speaker 1: And it's pretty profound.

Speaker 1: And it would be very easy to misunderstand that one, you should know what you don't like about your partner and accept it.

Speaker 1: What most people are going to take away from that one statement is drastically different than what I just described, we would have to do to get there in a way that, okay, now I accept my partner's nateness, because it breaks my heart every time they're late, right?

Speaker 1: And oh, my God, every time I'm late, my heart's broken, because I know it left you feeling not loved.

Speaker 1: And we kiss each other with that emotional meaning.

Speaker 1: I'm late, I'm in trouble again, you're not loved again, we're giving each other a hug where we're both the hugged and the hugger.

Speaker 1: Because we both got hurt.

Speaker 1: And we're both accepting each other.

Speaker 1: That's the most important thing to be able to achieve.

Speaker 1: Yeah, which like, to me, the thing that's jumping out is kind of a process as opposed to like a state.

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 1: You got to be able to go through the process, right?

Speaker 1: You have to be able to have that experience, right?

Speaker 1: You got to have that experience, you got to trust you can have that experience.

Speaker 1: And that that is Yeah, the goal would be we can get we can have that experience of ourself of the other person of us together.

Speaker 1: Much more important than the end result, right?

Speaker 1: Again, it's the weird, right?

Speaker 1: The journey is more important than the destination.

Speaker 1: Right?

Speaker 1: These the list is a destination.

Speaker 1: And shooting for destinations is a is a in anything in life, right?

Speaker 1: You better like, yeah, it's the journey you want to focus the process you focus on the journey, and destination smestination.

Speaker 1: There's another fixism.

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 2: Two, you're able to participate in co regulation.

Speaker 2: So when one person is activated, the other can act as a common source that will help ground you.

Speaker 1: So again, this is the thing, right?

Speaker 1: It just leaves out the co regulation squared.

Speaker 1: It's not a realistic expectation.

Speaker 1: Look, here's one of the basic things about attachment.

Speaker 1: If you're not okay, your partner's not okay.

Speaker 1: They just not like if you have the flu, you're dying, your partner, like, of course, you should be allowed to have the flu, you should just be able to not be available emotionally for the next week, 10 days.

Speaker 1: But the truth is, you're your partner's primary attachment figure.

Speaker 1: And the fact that you're not okay, they're not okay.

Speaker 1: They have also just lost their part, you're sick, and it sucks.

Speaker 1: And they've lost their main companion friend in life.

Speaker 1: They lost their teammate for practical things, emotional things, and they're not okay.

Speaker 1: Right?

Speaker 1: It's not a realistic expectation that your partner should be able to just I'm just going to be fully grounded and not be hurting at all.

Speaker 1: And like, while you have the flu, right, they're going to not be okay while you're not okay.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: So again, we want to make room for ideally, our primary task is accepting that we just don't get to be not okay, and our partner be okay at the same time.

Speaker 1: Right?

Speaker 1: It's not a realistic expectation.

Speaker 1: Now it can happen sometimes, you know, Teal places 50th in her swimming race when last year, she finished fourth, and she's devastated.

Speaker 1: I should be able to in that moment, like that topic be able to I'm not going to be particularly upset that she's not available for lunch right now.

Speaker 1: When that's the only thing I want.

Speaker 1: Right?

Speaker 1: I'm going to be able to be there for and process how upset she is.

Speaker 1: And it makes sense.

Speaker 1: I don't know what happened this year that whatever it is, right, I can be there for her hurt feelings without me getting dysregulated.

Speaker 1: But I think having it as a universal goal that either of you should be able to be hurting upset, and the other person can be ground.

Speaker 1: It's not a realistic expectation.

Speaker 1: And it doesn't match the reality of the physiology of emotional bonding, right, that you're so important to each other, that if you're hurting, and you're hurting in relationship to the relationship, if it's something that is wrapped in emotional bonding significance, your partner is not going to be okay, they're going to be threatened.

Speaker 1: And they're going to probably want you to regulate them at the same time.

Speaker 1: So what do we do when both of you are hurting and both of you are threatened, and you both have an expectation that the other person should be able to keep their shit together and be a co regulator of you?

Speaker 1: Right?

Speaker 1: Like, we have to first accept that that's not realistic.

Speaker 1: We're both hurting at the same time.

Speaker 1: We both want the other person to put their shit to the side and show up for the other person.

Speaker 1: That's not fair on either of us.

Speaker 1: So we got to actually put that to the side and see, look, we're both stuck.

Speaker 1: We're both hurting neither.

Speaker 1: Neither of us can be there for each other.

Speaker 1: And through that initial process, now we could actually co regulate each other again, co regulation squared.

Speaker 1: I'm hurting and you're hurting and neither of us can be there for each other the way we need.

Speaker 1: That's the first place that we need to get to.

Speaker 1: This is a really hard place for both of us.

Speaker 1: Weirdly, living in that place and making that our first port of call.

Speaker 1: Now we can have co regulation squared.

Speaker 2: Three, you feel the most loved and super connected when you're being your authentic self.

Speaker 1: Okay, feeling the most loved.

Speaker 1: This is like a similar thing.

Speaker 1: If you look at it, it's a fine, there's a piece of wisdom that infected our culture, our society that you get to be your authentic self, you should thrive to be your authentic self.

Speaker 1: And anything that gets the way of being your authentic self is bad for you.

Speaker 1: Right?

Speaker 1: There's a lot of people that worship at that altar, even if they've never seen an altar in their life.

Speaker 1: They don't even realize that they've been worshiping at that altar, right?

Speaker 1: Like, you know, Neil Gaiman's American gods, for example.

Speaker 1: Imagine there's an authentic self God that thrives on the energy of people that self authenticity is what is most important to me, right?

Speaker 1: People don't even realize they're feeding that that worship in the world, right and making it stronger.

Speaker 1: But here's the thing, that's not the way the world works, right?

Speaker 1: It's not the way it works in reality, right?

Speaker 1: There are places that you being you scares other people.

Speaker 1: Right?

Speaker 1: And so there's places where you being your authentic self is going to be scary for your partner.

Speaker 1: Just like your partner being their authentic self is going to be scary for you.

Speaker 1: If you really think your relationship should be that you get to be all your authentic self in all aspects of your life, and you never scare your partner, so that they just like clap you and like, like in all aspects of your authentic self, right?

Speaker 1: Man, I have no idea how you're going to have a relationship that you're happy with.

Speaker 1: You're guaranteed to scare the living daylights out of your partner in some areas of your life when you're being your authentic self, just like your partner is guaranteed to scare the living daylights of you.

Speaker 1: Like you prefer Dua Lipa, she prefers Taylor Swift, and you're like, this is unacceptable.

Speaker 1: Your authentic taste in music, in pop music.

Speaker 2: Life ruining.

Speaker 1: 2024 is pop divas, right?

Speaker 1: It's unacceptable to me.

Speaker 1: I just can't take it, right?

Speaker 1: It's a silly example, right?

Speaker 1: So again, we'd have to get to a place that we can actually accept.

Speaker 1: Yes, I support you being your authentic self.

Speaker 1: And it's okay, there are places that it actually touches, it gets wrapped in emotional bonding significance, and I get scared or bond is threatened.

Speaker 1: And, you know, and my authentic expression of that will scare you.

Speaker 1: It's not okay for me to be me.

Speaker 1: And we're both going to scare each other.

Speaker 1: And let's actually learn to love each other as two authentically scared people.

Speaker 1: Right?

Speaker 1: So this is, we want to actually be able to behave when you're fully you in this area, it scares me.

Speaker 1: And then the way I react to you scares you.

Speaker 1: Look how doesn't that make sense?

Speaker 1: Could we actually accept it is an authentic expression of a relationship that we're both scared at the same time.

Speaker 1: Come here.

Speaker 1: No, you come here.

Speaker 1: And we love the shit out of each other.

Speaker 1: Hmm.

Speaker 1: So again, striving to I get to be authentic, and my partner just supports it.

Speaker 1: Right?

Speaker 1: Not a great idea, right?

Speaker 2: You, you know, to be honest, for you're interdependent on each other, which means you feel solid in the bond you share, while maintaining a strong sense of self.

Speaker 1: Yeah, so you should be interdependent.

Speaker 1: Absolutely.

Speaker 1: Like, I love this one, right?

Speaker 1: Like, definitely, we're an interdependent species.

Speaker 1: I love it.

Speaker 1: I love it.

Speaker 1: I love it.

Speaker 1: That we want to go right, we're not codependent.

Speaker 1: We talked about this, we have a whole episode and don't be calling yourself codependent.

Speaker 1: We're interdependent.

Speaker 1: We accept that we need each other, we accept you're the most important person in the world to me, right?

Speaker 1: I need to know that like, you choose me, I'm a priority to you.

Speaker 1: And like, I also want to be good enough for you.

Speaker 1: And we accept that we put those emotional expectations on each other.

Speaker 1: And we of course we do because we love each other.

Speaker 1: We friggin need each other.

Speaker 1: Let's like, absolutely.

Speaker 1: And then within that interdependence, within that acceptance of the importance of our bond, now we can go thrive in our own individual pursuits.

Speaker 1: I can join the circus, right?

Speaker 1: As a clown, obviously, there's nothing else I'd be remotely.

Speaker 1: I mean, you know what I mean?

Speaker 1: I'm not gonna ever be like, yeah, like, you know, that might take 50 years of training, whereas I bet you I could be a clown and fine.

Speaker 1: Like, you know, that's just the best chance, right?

Speaker 1: That I'd be a clown because I am a clown masquerading as a couples therapist, right?

Speaker 1: Already in life.

Speaker 1: So yes, interdependence, interdependence, because we accept what we mean to each other.

Speaker 1: No wonder we get upset.

Speaker 1: Look how much we love each other.

Speaker 1: That's why we fight, of course, because we're so important, right?

Speaker 1: Love it.

Speaker 1: And then out of that interdependence, and this is really important, which comes first, right?

Speaker 1: Interdependence first, because we love the shit out of each other.

Speaker 1: And we accept what we mean to each other.

Speaker 1: No wonder we're going to scare each other because we love each other.

Speaker 1: Now, because that is so solid.

Speaker 1: Now I get to go be a clown at the circus until gets to go be a hit man for like the Venezuelan government that I don't agree with that she's taking on this work.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: But she can thrive in her personal endeavors.

Speaker 1: And I can thrive in my clowning, because we are living in this interdependent world of attachment.

Speaker 1: So I have a funny feeling.

Speaker 1: That's not exactly the way he means it.

Speaker 2: Right.

Speaker 1: But yes, if that statement means we're interdependent, and we also get to be ourselves interdependence first, just like a child, a child that grows up in an attached, a safe, secure attachment, they get to go be whatever they want in the world, right?

Speaker 1: Because they're feel so solid that they're held by, you know, whatever configuration, right?

Speaker 1: I'm enough from my parent parents.

Speaker 1: And they're there for me.

Speaker 1: Now I can risk new things.

Speaker 1: I can go be a self, because I'm held inside of that secure attachment.

Speaker 1: So the order matters.

Speaker 2: Five, you feel safe saying no, or setting a boundary and confident, it will be respected.

Speaker 1: Okay, this is a really good one, too, right?

Speaker 1: Same, same, right?

Speaker 1: Like, look, yes, of course, you have a right to say no, and it should be respected.

Speaker 1: And there will be times that your no is going to terrify your partner.

Speaker 1: Like, you know, obviously, there's like, you know, no to, like, if you want to say no to having sex, of course, you have a right to say no to have sex, use a really clear example.

Speaker 1: And it makes sense, there's going to be scenarios where your partner is going to feel abandoned, they're going to be scared, they're not wanted, it's going to touch real significant emotional bonding pain.

Speaker 1: And they may protest in some way borne out of the pain they're in, and their protests may be interpreted for you.

Speaker 1: They're not respecting my no.

Speaker 1: Right?

Speaker 1: Now, of course, if they were like, grabbing you and trying to force you, that obviously is not okay, right?

Speaker 1: No violence, no threats of violence, right?

Speaker 1: But like that they go kicking and screaming, like they hear your no, and they're like, I'm fucking bullshit, you know, whatever, right?

Speaker 1: Like that, I think it actually makes sense, right?

Speaker 1: Because your no touches them in such a painful place, that it makes sense that they're going to have protest behavior in response.

Speaker 1: So again, it's just not that simple that I'm just me, I get to work out what's true for me, and I get to say it and not include and what I say impacts the world, my partner being the world's number one representative, it brings up in certain cases, a vulnerable experience for them.

Speaker 1: It is so painful for them that they make a protest, and I don't like their protest.

Speaker 1: So yes, you have a right to say no, yes, but let's incorporate.

Speaker 1: Of course, the world is affected on the other side of my no.

Speaker 1: And it makes sense that they are.

Speaker 1: So I say no, it leaves you feeling abandoned, not prioritized, there's no way for you to connect with me, that is really painful for you.

Speaker 1: So of course, you try again to like get me to change my mind on whatever the topic is, obviously, sex is a really big one, right?

Speaker 1: It scares you, my no is not being accepted.

Speaker 1: So I'll probably have to say my no even more firmly scares the other person even more.

Speaker 1: Look, ultimately, you have a right to

Speaker 1: say no and that scenario and others, but please expand your understanding of what's happening,

Speaker 1: that it is understandable that your no can terrify your partner, and they're going to engage

Speaker 1: in some kind of behavior, because they don't know how to handle their own terror when you're not

Speaker 1: there for them when they actually look over and they're saying, Are you there for me and your no

Speaker 1: to whatever the invitation was, it actually makes sense.

Speaker 1: It's really scary.

Speaker 1: And they can't necessarily regulate themselves in that moment.

Speaker 1: I have a quick question, which is sure.

Speaker 1: Is there a way that you would update that tip to like reflect a relationship with boundaries that you consider to be like within the range of healthiness and incorporating everything that you've said?

Speaker 1: Well, so here's the thing.

Speaker 1: Look, so nothing has to be different.

Speaker 1: Let's say it's like, look, I have a boundary that I don't watch horror movies, you take me on a mystery date to the movie theater, and I get in and the first it's a slasher movie, right?

Speaker 1: Look, hold your boundary.

Speaker 1: No walk out of the cinema.

Speaker 1: But after the fact, let's be able to zoom out and look and understand everything that happens.

Speaker 1: Hold your no, I told you this, it's fine.

Speaker 1: But what is it that happened, right?

Speaker 1: Let's start with the other person.

Speaker 1: I wanted to connect you this thing is really important.

Speaker 1: I just love being connected.

Speaker 1: I love us doing the thing I love, like, like slasher movies, I still want you to be part of my world, because that's just the way I am.

Speaker 1: So I'm moving towards that happening.

Speaker 1: It made you feel not heard, not considered your no is not respected.

Speaker 1: So you said a stronger No, you walked out of the cinema, it may gave me exactly what I was trying to avoid that we're not a team.

Speaker 1: I'm alone.

Speaker 1: So I try to explain myself.

Speaker 1: Now, there's no right or wrong in there.

Speaker 1: Like, like, look, the person is like, like, I'm really sensitive to us being a team.

Speaker 1: And it's I can't handle that.

Speaker 1: I only watch slasher movies on my own.

Speaker 1: I wanted you to do it.

Speaker 1: But it doesn't make sense that I wasn't respecting your no and I see how it hurt you.

Speaker 1: And no wonder you walked away.

Speaker 1: But I do see even though my behavior was totally makes sense that I walked out of the cinema, how it gave you more of the pain you were trying to avoid in the first place of now you're alone and without me, because remember, I often say like, we're always throwing boomerangs, right?

Speaker 1: I do the mystery day to try and be together.

Speaker 1: It got you makes leaves you feeling your no is not respected.

Speaker 1: So you walk out of the theater.

Speaker 1: So I the boomerang comes back and whacks me in the stomach, right?

Speaker 1: I walk out of the theater.

Speaker 1: Clearly, this is a no, it leaves you so terrified.

Speaker 1: You're not a team.

Speaker 1: Now you run after me and you you, heaven forbid you grab my arm to try and get me back because you're so scared.

Speaker 1: Right?

Speaker 1: Now my nose really not respected, right?

Speaker 1: And so this often happens now that couple comes into my office Monday morning after their Saturday night day, and they both scared to live in daylights out of each other.

Speaker 1: And so what am I going to do just sit the slasher movie dude down and go, you, you need to respect some nose young man, just assuming he's a young man, right?

Speaker 1: And what I'm gonna do to the lady, like, you know, this like made up example I have in my head, right?

Speaker 1: Woman, right?

Speaker 1: Is just support her, or help them see I actually can see what happened with both of you.

Speaker 1: And you both got really of course, you got scared, like, you know, what respect and then he actually pulled your arm to get you to come back to this.

Speaker 1: Oh, my God, you but this is so scary, right?

Speaker 1: And you actually wanted to gather time and then she's walking away and you didn't know how to handle it.

Speaker 1: And so you reached out and grabbed her I get it.

Speaker 1: You both scared to live in daylights out of each other.

Speaker 1: We would still of course, you can't be grabbing people's arms to stop them, of course, but I do get it.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: And I you know, I understand why you were so hurt that you would leave him on his own.

Speaker 1: I really get it.

Speaker 1: You poor devils.

Speaker 1: Remember devils both of you together little devils.

Speaker 1: Both of you got scared.

Speaker 1: So yes, we got to respect knows but we got to be able to zoom out and see the whole picture.

Speaker 1: Got to do both.

Speaker 1: If it's just respect knows without the whole picture.

Speaker 1: Good luck having a good relationship.

Speaker 1: You'll have many you'll have many.

Speaker 2: Six, you know that if your different about a specific event that they can both be true and valid.

Speaker 1: Absolutely.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: We don't have to spend much time on this because this is like, you know, the essence of what we do.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Not only are both our individual perspectives valid, those individual perspectives make a third entity's perspective, the system's perspective.

Speaker 1: All three perspectives are valid.

Speaker 1: Mine, yours and the pain that we went through.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: And so obviously, over time, we work with people, we're growing their ability to deeply understand, you know, my perspective from my vulnerable self, not just my reactive self, your perspective, not just from your reactive self, but your vulnerable self.

Speaker 1: And then we put all those four perspectives together into one shared perspective of I see the hurt that was caused in both of us.

Speaker 1: I see the way we both reacted that hurt each other more.

Speaker 1: Oh, God, was everybody valid and what just happened?

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: That's that's the big upshift in developing your personhood, your ability as a human being by doing work like this.

Speaker 2: Seven, physical intimacy feels playful, safe and confident.

Speaker 2: This one you talked about a little bit.

Speaker 1: I mean, I talked a bit about this, right?

Speaker 1: Like, look, it's a big ask, right?

Speaker 1: Again, you're only you're going to find someone that loves your particular type of sexual intimacy that's playful, safe, playful, confident.

Speaker 1: So here's the thing.

Speaker 1: I think it's much more likely for most people that sexual intimacy is going to touch some vulnerability for them.

Speaker 1: It's going to be wrapped in emotional bonding significance.

Speaker 1: I might feel like I'm at risk of being rejected for my not enoughness or I feel like I'm going to be too much and I'm not going to be chosen.

Speaker 1: You're not going to be as close to me as I want you to.

Speaker 1: So both people could have both of those or they could alternate.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: They could change from day like, you know, and instead of trying to get to a place that our sexual relationship is sans, absent those kind of vulnerable feelings, thoughts, fears, we want to get to a place I would say like we want to strive for as we work out how to accept, surrender, vulnerability, fear, lack of confidence is an actual natural experience to have in sexual intimacy.

Speaker 1: And we welcome those feelings into our sexual intimate relationship.

Speaker 1: And we learn how to have sexual intimacy as vulnerable, scared, non-confident people.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Because if you're not confident now, I'm not confident because I don't think that you want to be with me.

Speaker 1: And now that I think like you're no longer confident that you want to be with me now, I'm even less confident that you're going to be happy with me.

Speaker 1: And would like somehow let's make friends with that.

Speaker 1: That's a normal place to have sexual intimacy from this idea that we would somehow leapfrog that ever into.

Speaker 1: Hello, sexy fig is here.

Speaker 1: And then Teal answers with I'm so glad you're home, sexy fig, because I'm confident, playful Teal.

Speaker 1: Right?

Speaker 1: Like maybe Tuesdays, that's Tuesdays.

Speaker 1: But we also have Wednesday and Thursday.

Speaker 1: And we're too scared people in sex nights.

Speaker 1: At the very least, we got to make room for our scared selves, our vulnerable selves to be part of our sexual intimacy.

Speaker 2: Eight, you're able to repair and reconnect after a fight and learn from the experience.

Speaker 1: Absolutely.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: All fights are opportunities to, to understand yourself to the other person, what we just co created with each other and an opportunity for us to repair, where we give each other the love now that we couldn't give each other while we're fighting.

Speaker 1: So we actually, every fight gives us an opportunity to actually get closer to strengthen our love with each other.

Speaker 1: So absolutely love it.

Speaker 1: Love it.

Speaker 1: Love it.

Speaker 1: Love it.

Speaker 1: As you and Teal have said before, the magic is in the repair.

Speaker 1: The magic is in the repair.

Speaker 1: So yeah, it's brilliant.

Speaker 2: Nine, you're being relationally and emotionally challenged, which can feel a bit uncomfortable at times, but it's good for your overall development.

Speaker 1: Yeah, I love this too.

Speaker 1: Right?

Speaker 1: Like I remember the last three, I was like, the last three are perfect.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: You know, your relationship is your best personal development vehicle.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: At Esalen, you know, where I used to live, we don't, anytime you're going through a hard time, you go like yet another fucking growth opportunity.

Speaker 1: That's what you tell you.

Speaker 1: Someone asks, how are you doing today?

Speaker 1: And you go, I'm in another fucking growth opportunity.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: And you're really like, you know, the two greatest growth opportunities in my life, right.

Speaker 1: Relationship.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Cause I'm always going to, I'm going to be challenged.

Speaker 1: I'm going to meet parts of myself.

Speaker 1: I'm going to create carnage with someone else.

Speaker 1: And I have this opportunity to grow and it's going to be uncomfortable.

Speaker 1: What an amazing vehicle to be with someone that will be in that growth opportunity with you where we're constantly learning, even though it's uncomfortable for us.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Incredible.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: That's it.

Speaker 1: Relationship is an opportunity and that discomfort is, is hopefully we can welcome it and turn it into personal growth and even greater connection with each other.

Speaker 1: It's brilliant.

Speaker 2: 10.

Speaker 2: You feel like your partner sees you in a really positive light.

Speaker 1: Absolutely.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Look, it's so important that you, you see each other positively.

Speaker 1: I, yeah, like absolutely.

Speaker 1: Now remember to go back to where we're saying there's a process to get there, right.

Speaker 1: That we see that, oh, you're annoying behaviors.

Speaker 1: It isn't actually that you're annoying.

Speaker 1: You just play an annoying person in the movies.

Speaker 1: Who you really are is this really vulnerable person.

Speaker 1: And those annoying behaviors is just what you do to protect your vulnerable one.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: And the same for you.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: And if we get that really deeply, right, we get that really deeply.

Speaker 1: Then we come to love the place where your annoying behaviors come from.

Speaker 1: And so we start to feel safer with each other.

Speaker 1: We see each other in a positive light.

Speaker 1: We can have more fun, playfulness, be more confident with each other.

Speaker 1: But yeah, seeing each other in a positive light, it's a process to get there and we don't just get there and we stay there.

Speaker 1: By the way, this is really important on all of these points.

Speaker 1: Look, getting to places where we feel playful, confident, you know, we understand each other's annoying places come from a vulnerable place inside that we love about each other.

Speaker 1: Like, isn't this relationship great?

Speaker 1: It's uncomfortable, but we're growing like, you know, isn't our sex life great?

Speaker 1: Like, I love that we're safe, playful and confident in moments, right?

Speaker 1: Like, you know, these are all places that we get to temporarily, and then we lose it.

Speaker 1: And then we have to do the work to get back there again.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: So this is one of the most important things is that, like, you don't get to a good relationship, and then you keep it forever.

Speaker 1: The work of being in a good relationship is you're constantly, constantly accepting, right?

Speaker 1: Like, this is who we are, we get triggered, we get hurt, we hurt each other, and we got to make our way back to connection again, right?

Speaker 1: It's an over and over and over again journey.

Speaker 1: Just like, you know, like the analogy would be with you, let's say you meditate and you hit a satori moment, a moment of enlightenment, you know what comes next after a satori moment?

Speaker 1: The dishes, right?

Speaker 1: Like, you know, life, right?

Speaker 1: And you don't you don't get to stay there permanently.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: And so you're constantly working.

Speaker 1: A good relationship goes from good to bad, oh, and then bad back to good, and then good to bad, and then bad back to good, over and over again for the rest of your life.

Speaker 1: Your job is to accept that and do the work.

Speaker 1: The real work starts when it's bad and get back to good.

Speaker 1: Seeing each other in a positive life as our light as a baseline, and then we only visit temporarily, we see each other in a negative light.

Speaker 1: And then we know our work is to get back to seeing each other in a positive light back in the good column.

Speaker 1: That's what the work is.

Speaker 1: It's not a permanent, forever state of we see each other in a positive light.

Speaker 1: And that's, again, really important to accept.

Speaker 1: It's constant work, we can't just take it for granted, we see each other in a positive light, we got to work on maintaining it.

Speaker 1: And the real work happens when we lose it, that we give each other a chance, I give me and you a chance to get back to see each other in a positive light again.

Speaker 2: Well, did you have any other closing thoughts about Therapy Jeff?

Speaker 1: Yes, that one final thing I wanted to share about critiquing Therapy Jeff's video, you know, 10 signs that you're in a good relationship is I think Therapy Jeff is brilliant, like look, he's and he's amazing.

Speaker 1: He's amazing communicator of wisdom about therapy and making therapy comfortable for people.

Speaker 1: So I love them.

Speaker 1: I think he's brilliant, like Jen, like amazing what he's doing.

Speaker 1: Anytime we put out ourselves a short video, or any other therapist, relationship experts put out a short video, and they're always lacking the real depth of context that is needed.

Speaker 1: And so I literally could take any single one of our own short videos and tear it apart.

Speaker 1: As you know, our most watched video, like I don't know, now it's like 1.5 million views that video in and of itself, if I had have seen it before it was released, I would have said do not put that out there to the world.

Speaker 1: Because what is said in the video, it's only like a one minute video, but it lacks all of this nuanced content to get like you have to have all this supporting material for what is said in the one minute to be true.

Speaker 1: And so just to be clear, this pointing out like Jeff's point one or point four, to be right, all this other stuff would need to be the way you frame that statement.

Speaker 1: This is not picking on therapy, Jeff, I literally would do the exact same thing to every single one of my own shorts.

Speaker 1: And so viewers, listeners, if you are consuming most of your relationship guidance, or, you know, personal development guidance, through one minute shorts on Instagram, or TikTok, or YouTube, it's not, it's not personal enough, it's lacking context.

Speaker 1: And it's not nuanced enough for it to be a guiding force and how you work on yourself, work on your relationship, no matter where it's coming from.

Speaker 1: Empathy, figs, therapy, Jeff, anybody, right?

Speaker 1: It is entertainment, it is supposed to get you started on the journey to doing the deep nuanced personal work yourself, or in your relationship, or with another therapist.

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 1: And I think, you know, just what we're talking about, like, obviously, we come from this very, very specific attachment focus, systems focus, it's all about the experience of the pro and the process focus way of helping people.

Speaker 1: We have an opinion, we think it's the best, right.

Speaker 1: But there are many different types of couples counseling, relationship counseling out there.

Speaker 1: I think one of the things that can be confusing for people is when they reach out for therapy or counseling, that they think it's actually they're getting the same thing from whoever the therapist is.

Speaker 1: And hopefully, you might hear in this video that there's actually pretty significant differences, someone could be a psychotherapist, and what they're doing, and what they're helping people do is materially very, very different.

Speaker 1: Well, and if you're curious, if you're listeners and viewers about like empathy, the empathy method, and everything that figs here, I'm hesitant to use the word preaches.

Speaker 1: I do kind of Yeah, I'll leave a couple links in the description.

Speaker 1: And you guys can take a further gander or you know, listen next week.

Speaker 1: Yeah, so I'm trying to be better at asking.

Speaker 1: Listen, watch the videos, subscribe, give it a like, leave a comment.

Speaker 1: It helps with the algorithms, just helps us reach more people.

Speaker 1: Thank you.

Speaker 1: And we will be back with another episode next week.

Speaker 1: Thank you.

Speaker 1: Thanks

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