Speaker 1: I will not hear you call yourself.

Speaker 1: I won't hear it.

Speaker 1: I won't hear you label that part of you bad part.

Speaker 1: Welcome back to the come here to me podcast.

Speaker 1: I am figs.

Speaker 1: And I'm joined today by Steph, our wonderful podcast producer.

Speaker 1: Hi, and interviewer extraordinaire.

Speaker 2: That's why I'm here guys.

Speaker 2: Ask the burning questions.

Speaker 2: Exactly.

Speaker 1: Yeah, you're coming up with the topics for us to talk about.

Speaker 1: So I'm excited.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: What are we going to talk about today?

Speaker 2: Well, today is all about codependent relationships.

Speaker 2: So I figured we could start with what is a codependent relationship because the term was initially created to describe a relationship dynamic around people who are addicted or like quote unquote, chemically dependent and their partners who are the co dependence, but it's kind of more popularly used to describe relationships that don't necessarily feature substance abuse.

Speaker 1: No, that's really good.

Speaker 1: So let's let we should probably try and define it better.

Speaker 1: I think that's really good.

Speaker 1: Where the term comes from codependency.

Speaker 1: I like it right at the term codependency.

Speaker 1: It first was created when they started studying Melanie Beatty, I believe is her name, Jesus, who first had the experience of sitting with the family members of addicts, alcoholics, and she discovered that the family members were not doing very well themselves, right?

Speaker 1: They didn't seem like they were in the best mental emotional shape.

Speaker 2: Yeah, which seems obvious now, but like it is a meaningful observation.

Speaker 1: Yeah, of course, they're distressed.

Speaker 1: But so here's the interesting thing, right?

Speaker 1: Do you have an actual definition of codependency?

Speaker 2: I sort of strung up together because it's one of those things that's used in a few different ways.

Speaker 2: And the common thread that I've taken from it is that, you know, partner A needs partner B, and then partner B needs to be needed.

Speaker 2: And then there are different kinds of relationship dynamics that revolve around that.

Speaker 2: And I think the part that's partner B needs to be needed is sort of the part that makes it the codependent kind of relationship.

Speaker 1: Yeah, but so this is where you have to put this in the context of when describing the partners of alcoholics as codependent that they needed to be needed, and they were enabling their alcoholic partner, or family member, all of this is in the context where not once do people reference attachment theory, right?

Speaker 1: Not once.

Speaker 1: I mean, it is, you know, you can rein me in staff on this topic, right?

Speaker 1: Because it would be like, imagine today, you're still getting advice on how to power your home from people that were trying to sell you whale oil, to light your your lanterns, you know, you know, like, to go buy a block of ice to keep your food cold.

Speaker 1: Right?

Speaker 1: Like, you know, it's, it is I'm trying to contain myself, right?

Speaker 1: Think about this, right?

Speaker 1: Here's what they and look, they weren't oriented around attachment theory.

Speaker 1: Again, what's attachment theory, we all need to be emotionally bonded from the cradle to the grave.

Speaker 1: It comes first.

Speaker 1: I talk about it every day, endlessly.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: So look, if people don't have that underlying understanding, right, as their base of human nature, then yeah, they look at the partner of an alcoholic, and they go, why aren't they making rational decisions?

Speaker 1: How come they're obsessing about the behaviour of their clearly, you know, incapable spouse, they're going to keep choosing drinking, and everything they do is making sure that it's easier for the alcoholic spouse to keep drinking, they must love to be needed.

Speaker 1: Right?

Speaker 1: Like, it's a terrible, it's a really damning judgment

Speaker 1: of the spouse of an alcoholic, the spouse of a drug addict, the mother of a teenage child,

Speaker 1: whose behaviour is not exhibiting competency in life, right, that they're now going to obsess

Speaker 1: about their child's behaviour, their alcoholic spouse or partner's behaviour, drug addicts

Speaker 1: behaviour, their video game playing spouse's behaviour, whatever it is, right, because they

Speaker 1: need to be needed.

Speaker 1: Right?

Speaker 2: It's an unempathetic framing.

Speaker 2: But is there a way where this is a real relationship dynamic that is happening where rather than it's like, I need to be needed, it's that I have an idea of what love means.

Speaker 2: And like, it's not unconditional.

Speaker 2: And in order to receive love from my partner, I have to be always self sacrificing or always available and like lose contact with bigger picture for them.

Speaker 1: And for me, yeah, but I just don't think that's what's happening.

Speaker 1: What's happening is the quote unquote, supposedly, let's let's just do the alcoholic spouse, okay, they've made an actually an accurate interpretation of reality.

Speaker 1: My partner, my spouse has another entity that they're in relationship with, and they are consumed by it.

Speaker 1: Right, whatever type of drinker they are, right, they're consumed by it, they are not capable of choosing me our relationship, healthy choices over their relationship with alcohol.

Speaker 1: And now remember, attachment is primary, I need because I'm a human being to stay emotionally bonded to my person.

Speaker 2: Right?

Speaker 1: I cannot ask for my needs to be met.

Speaker 1: Because if I do, I've already determined accurately, consciously or unconsciously, my partner is not capable of meeting their needs.

Speaker 1: If I go to them today and go, look, choose me or alcohol, they will choose alcohol.

Speaker 1: Right there.

Speaker 1: They're going there because they're, they're, it's literally like a possession, right?

Speaker 1: You know?

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 2: So how do you get your emotional needs met?

Speaker 1: Well, but but so the first thing is, we want to frame it lovingly, like, look, this whole thing, you're being codependent.

Speaker 1: No, not at all.

Speaker 1: You love your partner, your spouse, you accurately have determined they're not capable of showing up in a way that would make you feel loved.

Speaker 1: And you have to compensate to make sure you don't lose them.

Speaker 1: And so just keep the connection to stay in relationship with them, you will make compromises and sacrifices.

Speaker 1: And of course,

Speaker 1: in this particular instance, where they're with someone that genuinely can show up in a very

Speaker 1: fundamental way for them to be able to function as a member of a relationship, a member of society,

Speaker 1: hold down a job, whatever it is, right, stay out of trouble with the police, drive sober, whatever,

Speaker 1: you know, manifestations happening, they're going to work extra hard to compensate for the way their

Speaker 1: partner cannot function.

Speaker 1: Now, to say that most of those people like people are doing that because they love to be needed, I just think it's really unfair, what they really want is they don't want to lose their person.

Speaker 1: They love them so much.

Speaker 1: They're heroes, right?

Speaker 1: They are unbelievably brave and heroic, that they will try and try and try to save this person from themselves to make sure that they don't lose the relationship.

Speaker 1: Now, it turns out that by doing that, a secondary consequence is you do provide this partner of a, you know, alcoholic, you know, the original discussions, interviews that came to the creation of this term codependency, that you will end up creating the very thing that you are desperately trying to avoid, right, right, just, you know, what you resist persists, right?

Speaker 1: If you are basically trying to make sure your partner doesn't drink the way you try and make sure your partner doesn't drink will become the very input for them that they will interpret as see, I should have a drink, right?

Speaker 1: The more you try and keep them together, the less together they will be.

Speaker 1: So it is actually quite tragic for the partner that look, I love you so much.

Speaker 1: I know you're not capable of showing up.

Speaker 1: And so I will actually give up my needs to try and make sure I don't lose you, like explicitly lose you that you'll drink yourself to death, or you'll go even further away.

Speaker 1: So I just like a kid with like, look, a kid just wants their mom or dad, no matter how crap they are.

Speaker 1: They're not going to give up on their mom or dad, they're not going to give up, they will do anything.

Speaker 1: And again, just imagine how your heart breaks for a kid that, you know, they're gonna love their mom, no matter what, no matter how crap they are at momming, right?

Speaker 1: Yeah, they're never going to give up on their mom.

Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm not giving up on them.

Speaker 1: That's what's happening for with these quote, unquote, codependent people.

Speaker 1: So that's the one thing with codependency in terms of being with someone that is an addict, or a gambler or a drinker, some other sort of third person in the relationship, like another exact element.

Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: And they're, they're absolutely right, right?

Speaker 1: Like they're, their partners lost the plot.

Speaker 1: Right?

Speaker 1: You know, they're, they're just not capable of being in a primary relationship, but they won't stop, they'll fight.

Speaker 1: They'll fight, they'll fight for the relationship.

Speaker 2: With this framing, it reminds me of the Triggers-based episode that you and Karen did where there's recognizing when you're in a relationship, and the thing that you think is happening is happening.

Speaker 2: And then there is replicating some of the systems that you're familiar with, the sort of repeating history part, where, you know, you're less of a quote, unquote, trustworthy assessor of your situation.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 2: So would you say that in relation to this term, like codependent relationship, there's the situation where you're appropriately assessing that the person you're with isn't there fully.

Speaker 2: And then there is when I grew up, let's say, my parent was emotionally unavailable.

Speaker 2: And then I felt like I needed to step up.

Speaker 2: And now I'm replicating the same system as an adult.

Speaker 2: And I can't offer my vulnerable self, I'm only this person who's presenting is like, I'm going to take care of your needs, that sort of version of a codependent relationship where the system is the problem more than it is, like, a person needs some individual work.

Speaker 1: Right?

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: But so look, let's to your point, right?

Speaker 1: For one of the first things you said, Steph, is there's the context of codependency inside a relationship where one of the members is an addict, or is not able to survive in the world without some kind of addiction, like behavior, right?

Speaker 1: And there's thinking about what their partner in relationship does to try to make sure from an attachment perspective, they just don't want to lose the person because they're everything to them.

Speaker 1: So they're just behaving the same way, a little child would like they'll, they will make any compensation they have to make to not lose their mom, mom is most important.

Speaker 1: Most important.

Speaker 1: I'll do anything else.

Speaker 1: I'll get rid of every friend.

Speaker 1: I'll lose every toy.

Speaker 1: The last thing I will lose is mom.

Speaker 1: Yeah, no way.

Speaker 1: So that's all they're doing.

Speaker 1: Right?

Speaker 1: They're not addicted to being needed.

Speaker 1: It's just attachment.

Speaker 1: Okay.

Speaker 1: There's that, right?

Speaker 1: Now, there's this other thing that people think codependency is, and this is what it's more used in everyday speech in our society, where people think we need each other too much.

Speaker 1: We're too emotionally dependent on each other.

Speaker 1: Right?

Speaker 1: We're trying to resolve deeper needs between you and me, that really are our own responsibility.

Speaker 1: Right?

Speaker 1: Which again, is a very mean spirited way of considering what people in relationship that are incredibly important to each other are doing.

Speaker 1: Right?

Speaker 1: We all need to be emotionally bonded, right?

Speaker 1: Let's just again, just say that's a given.

Speaker 1: And so in your relationship today, with your primary partner, they are going to be the most important person in the entire world to you.

Speaker 1: I wouldn't fight it, I would accept that's who they are to you.

Speaker 1: And you are probably at least you should be the most important person in the entire world to them.

Speaker 1: And so now when it looks like you're not there for each other, it's going to hurt and that hurts going to be multiplied by a similar hurt you experience with your previous primary attachment figures, your past partners and of course, the ultimate past primary attachment figures, your mom, dad, whoever raised you.

Speaker 1: So for you now to be desperately trying to resolve the emotional bonding wounding you had in the past with your present partner does not make you codependent.

Speaker 1: You're like, you know, Hercules, trying to complete all the what is it called?

Speaker 1: They're not trials and tribulations.

Speaker 1: But what was his task called?

Speaker 1: I can't remember.

Speaker 2: I only saw the Disney movie once.

Speaker 1: So, so like, look, you're on an epic, epic odyssey, right?

Speaker 1: Right to actually get the love that you didn't get.

Speaker 1: And you're trying to resolve it with your partner.

Speaker 1: Right?

Speaker 1: There's a shouldn't be a negative codependent label on it.

Speaker 1: And two people that really, really need each other.

Speaker 1: Right?

Speaker 1: Look, I really need to know I'm important to you.

Speaker 1: I really need to know that you're not disappointed in me.

Speaker 1: And they're laying those needs on each other.

Speaker 1: Like that's not a bad thing.

Speaker 1: That is not a bad thing.

Speaker 1: That is not a quote unquote, bad thing that we have made the word codependency.

Speaker 1: It is really awesome that you're interdependent with each other, and that you're trying to help yourself and each other resolve these deep emotional wounds that can only be resolved inside a primary relationship.

Speaker 2: I mean, that makes sense.

Speaker 2: I think I'm getting the sense that you don't like the term codependent.

Speaker 2: I'm picking it up.

Speaker 2: But I think there's a way that it can be used or something that people are trying to get at that isn't necessarily like a judgment, but an attempt to express something that's happening in the relationship, which is losing access to your sense of what you need or what you want.

Speaker 2: And like kind of losing access to like in an experiential way, what your feelings are, because you're so threatened by the idea that you're going to lose your partner.

Speaker 2: And then everything is in the basket of like, I need to make sure that their needs are met.

Speaker 2: And then there are subsequent things that happen from that, like, if they're upset, it's hard for you to regulate your own feelings, which, you know, in some ways makes sense.

Speaker 2: But like expressing that this is more than more intense than maybe they would like it to be.

Speaker 1: Yeah, but let me just like, that's normal.

Speaker 1: Like, that's a normal thing to feel, right?

Speaker 1: This is the thing, calling yourself or other people codependent, because someone else is so important to you that it's very hard for you to know where you end and another person begins.

Speaker 1: And to be able to actually go inside, know what you're feeling, what your needs are and communicate it.

Speaker 1: Like that's, that's normal.

Speaker 1: That's a very normal thing that someone really struggles with that.

Speaker 1: You know, or, or in fact, they're so protected around making sure that doesn't happen that they're like the opposite, right?

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: They go to the ice cream store and they go, I want chocolate ice cream and only chocolate ice cream.

Speaker 1: I will not be swayed by others opinions, right?

Speaker 1: They've overcompensated.

Speaker 1: But look, it's totally normal that we have to work through with someone that look, I'm not okay, if you're not okay.

Speaker 1: And when you're not okay, I lose contact with myself and I'm completely consumed by you.

Speaker 1: Like that's just one of the flavors how someone learned to survive not being loved the way they needed to.

Speaker 1: And that's the epic task that we have to resolve.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 2: But it's just a little faster to say, I feel like I'm codependent.

Speaker 2: Can you help?

Speaker 2: And then you can break it down for them and tell them that this is not a bad thing.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: But here's the problem.

Speaker 1: The word codependent has been imbued with pathology.

Speaker 1: There's this is the thing, as I say, there's nothing wrong with someone that that's what they're working on.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: You know, but what you're calling codependent, this can go in a couple of different directions, right?

Speaker 1: Someone can like, look, I don't know how to feel what's happening inside me.

Speaker 1: I got to make sure you're okay.

Speaker 1: They may look on the outside, they're not going to look like a placater.

Speaker 1: They're going to look like a reserved, unavailable person.

Speaker 1: And then someone else with the exact same thing, they're going to come into their house and they're going to offer me 20 cups of tea.

Speaker 1: Right?

Speaker 1: I said, no, I don't want a cup of tea.

Speaker 1: Ah, no, go on.

Speaker 1: You will have a cup of tea.

Speaker 1: Would you have a piece of cake?

Speaker 1: Ah, look, go on.

Speaker 1: Let me get you a piece of cake.

Speaker 1: Right?

Speaker 1: Like most people, again, because like when you're first born, your mother or, you know, whoever raised you, they're not a separate person at first.

Speaker 1: You don't have a concept of them being a separate person.

Speaker 1: They're an extension of yourself.

Speaker 1: And if they're not okay, you're not okay.

Speaker 1: You'll literally die if they're not okay.

Speaker 1: They're not there.

Speaker 1: They're not available.

Speaker 1: They don't like you.

Speaker 1: You're at risk of dying.

Speaker 1: You're completely merged with them.

Speaker 1: And you're, you're absolutely right to be obsessed with, are they okay?

Speaker 1: And then, so look, you know, it makes sense then it's going to be very hard for you to separate.

Speaker 1: One of the things that happens with attachment is a human organism has to give over certain survival processes to the mom.

Speaker 1: You literally give it to them, let them be responsible for it.

Speaker 1: So by design for you to develop, you give up your agency, right?

Speaker 1: You know, they're going to protect you, keep you, you know, safe.

Speaker 1: And you're trusting them to do that.

Speaker 1: And so you do lose your sense of agency, you don't have it, it takes a while to develop.

Speaker 1: And then after it's developed, you still can get confused where you end and your primary attachment figure begins.

Speaker 1: And so look, all of us in adult relationship, we're all going to have work to do around OG, like, in my opinion, the work is accepting this is true.

Speaker 1: If you're in a primary relationship with someone, if they're not okay, you're not okay.

Speaker 1: Most people, when we go down the codependency track, they actually think this is something they need to get rid of, as opposed to surrender to.

Speaker 1: If your partner's not okay, you're not okay.

Speaker 1: That's how important they are to you.

Speaker 1: And how we quote, unquote, you know, come to have a healthier relationship is not by trying to get rid of that, but actually surrender to it completely.

Speaker 1: I love you so much that if you have a cold, if you're sick, I'm not okay.

Speaker 1: I'm not okay.

Speaker 1: You have gone away, my organism doesn't recognize you as being here in a way that makes me feel like everything's okay in the world.

Speaker 1: So you know what, it's kind of crazy, but I am kind of bitchy to you when you've got a cold because I'm not okay when you have a cold.

Speaker 1: Right?

Speaker 1: That I would much rather people come to accept that as true as opposed to I'm going to work.

Speaker 1: I'm not needing you to be healthy all the time.

Speaker 1: Do you know what I mean?

Speaker 1: The difference between the two strategies?

Speaker 2: Well, I guess the premise I'm getting from you is that by setting up the label of codependent, people will start to presuppose solutions to their problems or their suffering.

Speaker 1: Well, they think that there's something wrong with them.

Speaker 2: Right?

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 2: Or the labeling piece is like, they've got a big scarlet letter on their shirt.

Speaker 2: And now that they're codependent.

Speaker 1: Yeah, they're doing it to themselves.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 2: But then one of the tricky things about the premise of the podcast, or like me giving you these questions is that people search for these kinds of things for a lot of different reasons.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 2: And then, at the same time as we're trying to like help them, we're trying to break down a lot of the pieces of advice that they've gotten before that they come into the situation with that there's something they need to fix, like they need to get rid of their need to be needed, their need to be needed.

Speaker 1: Yeah, which I think is crazy.

Speaker 1: But that's okay.

Speaker 1: You know, it's crazy, right?

Speaker 1: I mean, you know, obviously, if they're doing the Munchausen syndrome, you know, like when they're getting their partner or their child sick, yeah, by proxy, like, you know, there's obviously extreme cases where it really is a pathological like issue that you're keeping someone sick so that you will be needed.

Speaker 2: Right?

Speaker 1: Like it does exist.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: But here's, I think, the core message is someone someone that finds, you know, this podcast interview this video, and they go, how can I fix my codependent relationship?

Speaker 1: Right?

Speaker 1: You know, how can I stop myself being codependent?

Speaker 1: I would say the first thing you have to do is stop calling yourself codependent.

Speaker 1: Stop thinking of your relationship as codependent.

Speaker 1: Yeah, you both love the shit out of each other.

Speaker 1: And or at least we can say you love the shit out of them, whoever your partner is, right.

Speaker 1: And it's the most natural thing in the world, right?

Speaker 1: Because love slash attachment is primary.

Speaker 1: And so of course, anytime your bond with your partner feels threatened, you're going to freak out and you're going to do whatever you can that you've learned to do to try and not lose the connection or the relationship.

Speaker 1: That's not a bad thing.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Let's not call that part of you that's doing that a bad thing.

Speaker 1: It's the most normal human thing in the world.

Speaker 1: I will not hear you call yourself codependent.

Speaker 1: I won't hear it.

Speaker 1: That's what I did as well.

Speaker 1: Like I won't hear you label that part of you that is fighting for love a bad part of you won't do it.

Speaker 1: Now look, let's say there's three then use cases of the word codependent the way I think of it.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: So now in the first use case, you're with a partner that's an alcoholic, drug addict, whatever.

Speaker 1: And you have determined rightly, they're not capable of showing up.

Speaker 1: And so you're obsessed with their behavior and trying to keep them inside some track that you don't lose them or they don't lose themselves because they're so incapable having their shit together, because they're addicted to something, right?

Speaker 1: Look, we want to help that person love and accept what you're doing just the way I described.

Speaker 1: And now we can have a conversation about, hey, look, I could see how the way you're trying to keep them, you're inadvertently stopping them get to their come to Jesus moment.

Speaker 1: Right?

Speaker 1: Where the longer you resist, the more likely they're going to have reason to keep on this path.

Speaker 1: Right?

Speaker 2: Right.

Speaker 1: So we can explore what it is they really need, the way they're scared of losing them, right?

Speaker 1: We, we can do all that very lovingly, right?

Speaker 1: Much more lovingly than we tell them, this is something they have to stop doing, right?

Speaker 1: Because they're quote, unquote, codependent, right?

Speaker 1: The second use cases where you have two people together, and they, you know, like of the word codependency is like, we need each other too much.

Speaker 1: Right?

Speaker 1: Look at us, we can't I can't go in a night out without worrying about how are you at home?

Speaker 1: I'm at home worried that you're going to meet Julio, who has no shirt on and his chest is greased down.

Speaker 1: And he's an amazing salsa dancer.

Speaker 2: He doesn't have a scarlet letter because he doesn't have a shirt.

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 1: You know, whatever it is, right.

Speaker 1: And those two people now judge themselves and each other.

Speaker 1: We are codependent.

Speaker 1: Look, we can't live in the world without each other.

Speaker 1: Again, same medicine, I'm going to talk to them.

Speaker 1: Hey, no, no, no, you're not codependent.

Speaker 2: Stop.

Speaker 1: I want you to stop judging yourself negatively and your partner negatively.

Speaker 1: I won't hear it.

Speaker 1: You're two people that love each other because love is primary.

Speaker 1: And it makes sense when you're out at the club like and there's a Julio there with no shirt on that you're worried about your partner at home.

Speaker 1: Like I hope they're okay.

Speaker 1: I hope they're not feeling bad.

Speaker 1: All right.

Speaker 1: And it makes sense that you're you might partners at a club and Julio's there with no shirt on and he's like his chest is greased down.

Speaker 1: Right?

Speaker 1: I don't know where the images are coming from.

Speaker 1: Right?

Speaker 2: You're subconscious.

Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1: I'm seeing a dancer is really Michael Flackley.

Speaker 1: Right?

Speaker 1: The Irish dancer with the greased chest, right?

Speaker 1: Doing his river.

Speaker 2: For some reason, he has the name Julio.

Speaker 2: Okay.

Speaker 1: I know.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: It's a much better dancer name.

Speaker 1: I think Julio.

Speaker 1: Michael.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: But but anyway, so like, it makes sense.

Speaker 1: You're scared they could meet someone else because you you love them so much.

Speaker 1: You don't want to lose them.

Speaker 1: I would help that couple go Hey, come here.

Speaker 1: You're not this isn't codependent.

Speaker 1: You just love each other so much you get really scared.

Speaker 1: I get scared if you're not okay, I'm not okay.

Speaker 1: What if when I'm out at the club, you're not okay?

Speaker 1: What if at the club you meet someone else, I'd lose you.

Speaker 1: So instead of trying to fight those feelings, get rid of those feelings.

Speaker 1: I want to help them go deeper into those feelings and accept them and say look how much we love each other.

Speaker 1: And then from that foundation.

Speaker 1: Now, we can actually I'm going to go to the club and I know like it's hard for me because I'm worried you're not okay.

Speaker 1: And I'm get scared.

Speaker 1: I lose you.

Speaker 1: And those two people like on the in the Uber ride on the way to the club.

Speaker 1: She's like, Oh, it's so hard for me to trust you're okay.

Speaker 1: And I get so scared.

Speaker 1: I lose you.

Speaker 1: And they send little kissy emojis.

Speaker 1: Because they've accepted how they feel.

Speaker 1: They haven't labeled themselves and each other negatively.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: The third use case is where one person like on their own, I guess it's it's it's inside of that they think I need another person too much.

Speaker 1: I'm not capable of looking after myself.

Speaker 1: And I think that's just incorporated into that second one.

Speaker 2: I described, I have a third use case.

Speaker 1: Oh, yeah.

Speaker 2: Great.

Speaker 2: Which is rooted in trauma where one partner has disconnection from their feeling and the other partner feels like they're not safe in the world.

Speaker 2: And this is not something to be diagnosed.

Speaker 2: But like just another flavor kind of of the second one where there's a specific problem underneath the like, we're just too into each other or like we're too stressed out about each other, where a person is like, I'm so enveloped in you that I can't feel me.

Speaker 2: And the other person's like, I feel like I'm not secure without you supporting me and feeling my feelings.

Speaker 1: Right?

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Well, again, what what an amazing relationship to be in, where they get an opportunity to work on these things, right?

Speaker 1: Whatever happened to them in their primary relationship with their primary caregiver, when they were little, they didn't develop the ability to know they were okay, I couldn't feel myself, I had to be obsessed with you, I couldn't know that I, like I was loved, because I'm always wondering, are you there loving me, whatever, whatever it is?

Speaker 1: Well, they have to resolve that.

Speaker 1: And the only place you're going to resolve that is in a primary relationship where it's actually happening right now.

Speaker 1: Yeah, where it's happening right now.

Speaker 1: But the path is the same.

Speaker 1: We want to look at it as like, it's the most normal thing in the world.

Speaker 1: We know we're not there's no negative label on this, right?

Speaker 1: It's all right.

Speaker 1: Right?

Speaker 1: It's totally okay.

Speaker 1: Right?

Speaker 1: We have but we just have, we have some experience that's missing under some steps we need to do together inside of yourself, each of you as individuals, and then together to resolve them.

Speaker 1: Isn't it great to have each other, and you're triggering each other in this way.

Speaker 1: So we have an opportunity to resolve this, this missing experience to create this missing experience that you needed all along.

Speaker 1: I will add, let's say for whatever reason, it's too activating, it's too triggering, or one or both people are not ready, or able to complete that journey to that missing experience that I can be connected in relationship now.

Speaker 1: Like, you know, where I don't have to lose myself completely, or I don't have to be like, withdrawn inside of myself disconnected.

Speaker 1: An important developmental step for many people is they get to say no to the relationship now.

Speaker 1: Like that, like I, it's not going to work.

Speaker 1: And the thing that I have to be able to do in this next step of my human development is I have to say no.

Speaker 1: Because again, a little baby won't can say no to their mom.

Speaker 2: Right?

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: They can.

Speaker 1: So sometimes, and this is where we have to see we get to this crossroads, this threshold.

Speaker 1: And there's two possibilities.

Speaker 1: Let's say with simplicity, there's two things that could want to happen.

Speaker 1: One is I'm back in this place where I've lost myself and the other person's back in the place that I've fallen deeply inside myself to get away from the pain of intimacy connection.

Speaker 1: And they go, this time, I'm going to dare to feel this terror and be connected.

Speaker 1: And we're going to do this, even though it looks like this is terrifying.

Speaker 1: That's one direction when we get to that threshold experience.

Speaker 1: But the other one is, you know what, I'm back in the place that I feel unloved.

Speaker 1: I'm too anxious.

Speaker 1: I'm seeing again that the person's not going to be able to be there for me.

Speaker 1: I'm going to be really brave.

Speaker 1: I'm going to say no, no.

Speaker 1: And so what I do is I marched a couple or the individual to the threshold and let them decide which of those two things needs to happen.

Speaker 1: But we got to get to the threshold.

Speaker 2: Yeah, that makes sense.

Speaker 2: I'm most interested in the third one, because you've talked about before, like, stop asking for your needs to be met.

Speaker 2: You have that article.

Speaker 2: So I find it novel, the flip of that where there's like somebody who has a hard time expressing their needs.

Speaker 2: What would you do with a couple in front of you where they can feel an all needs met moment?

Speaker 1: Yeah, well, first thing, you know, like we talked about is we've got to normalize what's happening, right?

Speaker 1: Totally normal, right?

Speaker 1: No pathologizing.

Speaker 1: And again, unfortunately, this word codependency is shrouded now, wrapped in pathology.

Speaker 1: Yeah, it sucks, right?

Speaker 1: So codependency, smendency, or the other way the Irish way to say it codependent my arse.

Speaker 1: Right?

Speaker 1: That's the first thing I'd won't hear it.

Speaker 1: There's nothing wrong with you.

Speaker 1: You're just two people that love each other that scared the shit out of each other.

Speaker 1: I got to get them to live inside of that.

Speaker 1: Yeah, the person says, Wait, do you hear what I do?

Speaker 1: I'm like, Hello, I would do the same bloody thing.

Speaker 1: If I was terrified, I was losing my relationship, or I meant nothing to my spouse, or look like they were always disappointed in me.

Speaker 1: Most important, counter shame, counter shame, get them to stop thinking negatively about each other.

Speaker 1: Both of them about themselves about themselves.

Speaker 1: And then about each other as a relationship.

Speaker 1: Most important, right, that we start to have a positive frame about themselves and each other and what they co create with each other, just do people that scare each other, because love is so important to each other.

Speaker 1: And you have some ways of surviving that you picked up from your childhood.

Speaker 1: And isn't it great, we're here an opportunity to try and have it work out differently now than it worked out back then.

Speaker 1: So whatever we do, it has to be inside of that frame.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Okay, so that's the first frame accepted.

Speaker 1: That's the first part, right?

Speaker 1: So then look, I'll try and study and get to know what the system actually is.

Speaker 1: So what is it that happens?

Speaker 2: Right?

Speaker 1: Let's imagine we have someone that can't feel themselves and they've been hurt so much in the past, that they cannot believe one, they have a right to ask for their needs to be met, right, because they weren't met as a kid.

Speaker 1: And the way they survived was, like, I'm bad for even asking mom to meet my needs, because when I do, she gets mad at me, and they internalize it.

Speaker 1: So they actually, I'm not even gonna, I'm not gonna have needs to ask to be need.

Speaker 1: They literally, it's hardwired in now, me asking for needs makes me a bad person.

Speaker 1: So I'm not gonna have needs and ask for needs, right?

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: And if I do ask for them, I am bad.

Speaker 1: And so the fact that that's the they're wired emotionally, and their strategy wired together, they're going to put that on their partner, no matter what.

Speaker 1: Let's say their partner, it's some mix between Mother Teresa, Dalai Lama, and the Pope, you know, I don't know, right?

Speaker 2: And Julio.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: And Julio, right?

Speaker 2: Exactly.

Speaker 1: Like, you look, this is the nicest person in the world, and they would die for an opportunity to meet their needs, right?

Speaker 1: It doesn't matter.

Speaker 1: They'll still it's hardwired in no, no needs for me, I can't feel needs.

Speaker 1: And there's like, it's really scary to have needs and ask for needs to be met.

Speaker 1: And so they'll see in the other person, there's no way I could ask this person to meet my needs to be met, because they won't be there.

Speaker 1: Even though the reality is you're with the nicest person that's ever lived in the face of the earth.

Speaker 1: So look, they got hurt before they're going to put that, you know, the way I often describe it, let's just say, my needs are not worthy.

Speaker 1: And I can't ask other people to meet my needs.

Speaker 1: Let's say it was a color, it's green.

Speaker 1: This person walks through the world with a green filter over their eyeballs, right?

Speaker 1: So everything they see is tinted with green.

Speaker 1: This is you know, I say you can't trust your own perspective, right?

Speaker 1: My clients aren't trustworthy.

Speaker 1: Your perspective is colored by this filter, like I'm not worthy of having needs met.

Speaker 1: Green is over the person's eyeball.

Speaker 1: The entire world has a green tint to it.

Speaker 1: So what would we want to do?

Speaker 1: We'd want to help that person come to love that.

Speaker 1: How sad that is.

Speaker 1: How sad that is, right?

Speaker 1: Not like, oh, miscodependency pants, right?

Speaker 1: I'm going to label it.

Speaker 1: Like how sad, this is so painful.

Speaker 1: Oh my god, there's a little one.

Speaker 1: There was a little one here that like didn't get the love they needed.

Speaker 1: And this is what you have to do to survive.

Speaker 1: Fuck no, we're going to take a break from surviving, because we're big enough now that we could do it.

Speaker 1: Let's take a little break from surviving.

Speaker 1: And let's actually spend some time and let's feel how sad this is for this little person inside you that's still here and has never gone away, as we're going to love them and care for them.

Speaker 1: And then from that place, it was so sad, so painful, we might ask for our needs to be met from the place that is unimaginable.

Speaker 1: But we have to do everything before that, right?

Speaker 1: Like it's a system, it's both of us, right?

Speaker 1: Because only then will it be safe for the other person to actually show up and meet those needs of the most vulnerable one inside.

Speaker 1: And then we have to like go back over everything we did with that person to help them make the connection of this journey we just did.

Speaker 1: You know, the way you usually know they're not going to meet my needs.

Speaker 1: And so I'll just do all my placating or whatever shit I do.

Speaker 1: This time, I actually let myself feel the sadness.

Speaker 1: And from the place that I can feel that I actually did need something and ask from that place, and I gave the other person a chance to love me, even though it was terrifying.

Speaker 1: Right?

Speaker 1: Now we have to make sure they interpret that path as fuck yeah.

Speaker 1: That's the fuck yeah path.

Speaker 1: The other path of oh, let me be nice and placating and I'm not a bitch, right?

Speaker 1: That's not the fuck yeah path.

Speaker 1: But a lot of people think that is the fuck yeah path.

Speaker 2: Right.

Speaker 2: That's the I'm being good.

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 1: It's insane, right?

Speaker 1: I mean, it's not insane.

Speaker 1: But then we have to rewire their brain that the way you think you're being good is not good.

Speaker 1: But of course, like I said, people can overcompensate.

Speaker 1: But the people that really have this issue, they're not going to end up one day as the person that you walk into an ice cream store and you go, hey, let's get one big ice cream tub for everyone.

Speaker 1: They go chocolate, only chocolate, right?

Speaker 1: There's no way they'll go they'll flip all the way to the other side.

Speaker 2: That's probably what they're afraid of.

Speaker 1: It's like, well, that's the thing people do.

Speaker 1: They get so scared that they will stop being nice, I'll become mean.

Speaker 1: Like, listen, you like we're going to make some changes on the margins, right?

Speaker 1: We'll get you 25% better at asking for your needs to be met, but you're not going to become some like, hey, hold that door open.

Speaker 1: You're not going to become a different person.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Anyway, that's what I would try and do.

Speaker 2: Yeah, that's good.

Speaker 1: But yeah, look, you know, and I know I'm beating a dead horse figuratively speaking.

Speaker 2: On audio, guys, you can't see it, but he's beating a dead horse.

Speaker 1: Yes.

Speaker 1: And don't be pathologizing yourself and each other.

Speaker 1: And the whole codependency thing was born out of a time.

Speaker 1: The researchers, to their credit, they didn't understand attachment.

Speaker 1: They didn't reference it.

Speaker 1: They didn't see how love is the most primary important thing.

Speaker 1: Of course, these partners would be behaving this way.

Speaker 1: There's not something wrong with them.

Speaker 1: My God, we need to love these people up.

Speaker 1: By the way, the same with the addicts, the alcoholics.

Speaker 1: My God, they didn't get enough love and they've turned to synthetic love to try and feel what people that feel loved feel like.

Speaker 1: My God, we have to love these addicts.

Speaker 1: Really?

Speaker 1: They didn't know.

Speaker 1: But we know now.

Speaker 1: Love is the answer.

Speaker 2: All paths through acceptance.

Speaker 1: I mean, listen, it's not going to be hard to find a therapist that will help you pathologize yourself.

Speaker 1: But that's not what we do.

Speaker 1: We will lovingly spank the hand of your pathologizing self.

Speaker 1: We'll even love the way you pathologize yourself and other people, you little devil.

Speaker 1: We will love you into not pathologizing yourself and other people.

Speaker 2: The empathy way.

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 1: Even though I know I have this, I still have this fiery way of communicating it.

Speaker 1: So I know it's a bit of a weird juxtaposition.

Speaker 1: I'm kind of confrontational, but confrontational in service of love, not the worst thing.

Speaker 2: It lands well, so.

Speaker 1: It lands well.

Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1: Well, look, if I was telling you the Eagles are the best football team, I don't care, right?

Speaker 2: Well, I'm a Philadelphian person.

Speaker 1: So I'd be like, I know.

Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1: So you wouldn't fight me on that.

Speaker 2: But yeah.

Speaker 1: So the best way to resolve your codependent relationship is, listen, let's try thinking about it differently.

Speaker 1: You're just two people that love each other.

Speaker 1: Let's be very kind and loving to yourself and each other.

Speaker 1: You're just trying to resolve something inside of both of you and between both of you that's really important.

Speaker 1: So try and find someone that can guide you into doing it like right, lovingly and kindly to resolve this epic task you're both undertaking together while you're together in a relationship.

Speaker 1: And say we fail, we'll hit this threshold moment where you get to be brave and say, no, you know, because I got all this information now that I'm not going to keep trying here and keep getting hurt.

Speaker 1: But chances are, we'll actually end up with the other experience on the other side of that threshold moment where you actually are holding each other and there's snot and tears and you're loving each other and you're going to be able to do that together now for the rest of your life.

Speaker 2: Nice.

Speaker 2: Well, thank you for answering my questions so well and thoroughly.

Speaker 1: Well, I hope so.

Speaker 1: I know I'm a little testy today.

Speaker 2: It adds to the confrontational but loving.

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 1: Confrontational for love.

Speaker 1: Well, thank you, listeners and viewers.

Speaker 1: And I really appreciate Steph, you asking these wonderful questions.

Speaker 2: Anytime.

Speaker 1: And here's my favorite here in Hawaii, loving gesture, kind of juxtaposition as well, right?

Speaker 1: Is shaka guns.

Speaker 2: Wow, that's beautiful.

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 1: Some shaka guns for you.

Speaker 1: Okay.

Speaker 2: Okay.

Speaker 1: Thank you.

Speaker 1: See you next time.

Speaker 2: Bye.

Speaker 1: Bye.

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