Speaker 1: I'm worried that that I or someone else as a result of being in contact with us will actually die.

Speaker 1: He would just start running towards a kid and of course people would like run away from him but like it was like an agony of not getting to socialize.

Speaker 1: My name is Figs O'Sullivan and I'm Tilo O'Sullivan.

Speaker 1: We're emotionally focused couples therapists and we're a couple.

Speaker 1: In an act of sheer bravery or foolishness we're sharing our own couples therapy sessions with the world.

Speaker 1: Watch or listen to us fight, cry, laugh and repair then grow in your relationships along with us through the insight we share as couples therapists.

Speaker 1: There's a little kid inside of each of us just reaching out for love and connection.

Speaker 1: Let's begin to reach back out to each other.

Speaker 2: Welcome home.

Speaker 1: This is Come Here To Me.

Speaker 1: Welcome back to Come Here To Me with Figs and Tilo.

Speaker 1: Okay that's actually confusing for our listeners because they don't know.

Speaker 1: Some people may actually get their first time listening.

Speaker 1: Exactly and Figs could be a feminine name.

Speaker 1: Or a non-gendered name.

Speaker 1: Right a non-gender binary name.

Speaker 2: Exactly.

Speaker 1: It's a perfect non-gender binary name.

Speaker 1: That's why I actually took to this nickname at the age of five.

Speaker 1: So we're joking.

Speaker 1: In 1970s Ireland.

Speaker 1: A pioneer.

Speaker 1: I was a pioneer.

Speaker 1: No but thank you again for tuning in and if it's your first time I am Figs.

Speaker 1: And I am Tilo.

Speaker 1: Right yes exactly.

Speaker 1: Confused ourselves.

Speaker 1: As many of you know we record these very early in the morning before our kids get up.

Speaker 1: So we're a little like sleepy.

Speaker 1: You are.

Speaker 1: I'm wide awake.

Speaker 1: Well that's that's true.

Speaker 1: Bushy eyed and bushy tailed as well.

Speaker 1: Is that how it goes?

Speaker 2: No.

Speaker 1: Bushy tailed.

Speaker 1: Wide eyed.

Speaker 1: Wide eyed.

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 1: I was like bushy eyed.

Speaker 2: Yeah well actually yeah.

Speaker 1: I wouldn't ever say your your eyes are but I think we all know who has bushy eyes.

Speaker 1: I do have bushy eyes.

Speaker 1: It is one of the things I hate the most about aging is just the extra hair.

Speaker 1: Like the eyebrow hair and the ear hair.

Speaker 1: Like come on.

Speaker 1: Yeah and you know if we were like a socially acceptable podcast I wouldn't mention the hair that I also experience.

Speaker 1: On you.

Speaker 1: Not me.

Speaker 1: You don't know me.

Speaker 1: If I said that I also experience.

Speaker 2: Okay I was wondering.

Speaker 1: You're obsessed with your own hair.

Speaker 1: Like we go outside and I'm like he thinks there's a big hair like coming out of your ear and he's so pissed at me.

Speaker 1: He's like why don't you tell me this before.

Speaker 2: Exactly.

Speaker 1: I don't look at you in the house.

Speaker 1: That is one of my basic basic expectations of you is that you tell me if I have stray violent looking eyebrow hairs or ear hairs.

Speaker 1: I mean come on like and tell me before I leave the house.

Speaker 1: I don't have the pluckers in the car.

Speaker 1: It's true.

Speaker 1: I mean this is a big deal for figs and I'm going to ask you actually the opposite.

Speaker 1: If you ever see some stray hairs on me don't say anything.

Speaker 1: Really?

Speaker 1: Okay.

Speaker 1: Very good.

Speaker 1: Okay see there you go.

Speaker 1: There's a difference right there.

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 1: We just learned something really important about each other.

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 1: Suppression versus expression.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: But you know the interesting thing yeah you just hit on you know since I got older if I go out of the house with my fly down don't care.

Speaker 1: You just don't care anymore.

Speaker 1: You need to start caring about that because it's not socially acceptable.

Speaker 1: That's a problem of yours.

Speaker 1: I know.

Speaker 1: What does it matter?

Speaker 1: And of course these days you know because we live in Hawaii we don't actually wear pants with zips very often right.

Speaker 1: They're usually you know shorts.

Speaker 1: But I'm feeling an underlying attachment significance to this.

Speaker 1: By the way you need to keep working for my love and devotion.

Speaker 1: You can't just let your fly go down and your hairs come out.

Speaker 1: Yeah but wait a second.

Speaker 2: I do.

Speaker 1: You keep making me buy shorts that are five inches long.

Speaker 1: Now I don't know if you guys know like five inches long.

Speaker 1: I'm basically in a thong.

Speaker 2: It looks so good you guys.

Speaker 1: Okay yeah like I don't see any of the other guys in Hawaii wearing five inch.

Speaker 1: You got little bonnie legs that go.

Speaker 1: Okay see now I think you want me to wear the little short shorts just for your amusement.

Speaker 1: This is my grand master plan.

Speaker 1: I like it.

Speaker 1: But by the way I don't wear the short shorts other than if I know I'm definitely swimming.

Speaker 1: Like you know like if I'm heading off the town I don't put my little short shorts on.

Speaker 1: Just so you know I'm a little worried the short shorts are actually being wasted on me.

Speaker 1: Well tell you what could you check in with us next podcast and just let us know how it's feeling because yeah.

Speaker 1: I might send a picture.

Speaker 1: I'll have to post a picture of me in the short shorts.

Speaker 1: The ones with the cocks on them.

Speaker 1: Okay you have to say that didn't you.

Speaker 1: I love those.

Speaker 1: Cockerels.

Speaker 1: No that's not a word.

Speaker 1: It is a word.

Speaker 1: A cockerel is another word for a rooster.

Speaker 1: No no it's not.

Speaker 1: Oh my god.

Speaker 1: It is.

Speaker 1: Now by the way we just said we'd be really quick and this is just like.

Speaker 1: Let's move on.

Speaker 1: Let's move on.

Speaker 1: Okay well I'm really excited about this week's sharing.

Speaker 1: I am nervous about it too.

Speaker 1: It's a hot topic right.

Speaker 1: Figs and I are going to talk about different views of socializing and safety that have to do with the pandemic.

Speaker 1: And it's kind of a hot topic for a lot of our couples.

Speaker 1: And by the way he and I have gotten into some pretty major moments about it.

Speaker 1: Me and you.

Speaker 1: You just said he.

Speaker 1: I got confused.

Speaker 1: He okay.

Speaker 1: Who's he?

Speaker 1: I'll tell you who he is if you want to know.

Speaker 1: Okay great.

Speaker 1: This is a reveal of your affair partner reveal on our podcast.

Speaker 2: On our couple's therapy podcast.

Speaker 1: What's their name?

Speaker 1: It'd be very imaginative like another like.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Like Fergus.

Speaker 1: We found some other Irish man.

Speaker 1: Okay.

Speaker 2: Because you're a Gemini.

Speaker 1: That's probably what it feels like sometimes.

Speaker 1: It does.

Speaker 1: Jack won't hide you guys.

Speaker 1: Yeah right.

Speaker 1: Okay so listen.

Speaker 1: Jesus.

Speaker 1: So we do the episode.

Speaker 1: The therapy session that we had where I have.

Speaker 1: I'm a bit of a fearful person.

Speaker 1: If you've been listening you already know this.

Speaker 1: And so I'm much more worried about the social distancing and making sure that we're extra extra safe.

Speaker 1: And we're really locking down.

Speaker 1: And you're.

Speaker 1: Do you want to describe it rather than me describe you?

Speaker 1: Listen I do plenty of that in this session.

Speaker 1: But I'll reiterate.

Speaker 1: I do believe in science.

Speaker 1: I do.

Speaker 1: I'm very fearful of the coronavirus.

Speaker 1: By the way that's your.

Speaker 2: That's your.

Speaker 2: As you're going to the gallows.

Speaker 2: Thank you.

Speaker 2: I'm having a moment.

Speaker 1: I do believe in science.

Speaker 1: I do.

Speaker 1: Okay.

Speaker 1: Okay.

Speaker 1: Okay.

Speaker 1: Yeah this is something that I recognize and take seriously.

Speaker 1: And we are also in a less highly sort of infected place in general in Hawaii.

Speaker 1: There's a lot of social distance that's part of beach culture.

Speaker 1: And I've got some wild kids that need socializing within my pod.

Speaker 1: And so I push for that.

Speaker 1: And I'm on more of a liberal.

Speaker 1: Hey let's connect with other people.

Speaker 1: Of course masked with parents or beach environment where kids are playing side by side.

Speaker 1: Not looking each other's face.

Speaker 1: Anyway.

Speaker 1: But wait.

Speaker 1: Did you know that.

Speaker 1: I know I know.

Speaker 1: But it's so interesting.

Speaker 1: Even now right.

Speaker 1: But you did ask.

Speaker 1: I did.

Speaker 1: But listen.

Speaker 1: No.

Speaker 1: Go on.

Speaker 1: Well you're right.

Speaker 1: You're giving me an opening to another part.

Speaker 1: And this was something that fixed and I both really noticed in the session.

Speaker 1: So we'll.

Speaker 2: Well this is good.

Speaker 1: Like one of the things I noticed is your propensity to explain and justify yourself.

Speaker 2: Right.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: And I know you notice that about me that I keep explaining and justifying my point of view.

Speaker 1: And it's easier to see the way you keep explaining yourself.

Speaker 1: And I can feel a little bit of like you know.

Speaker 1: You felt embarrassed.

Speaker 1: Like voyeuristic embarrassed for you.

Speaker 2: Right.

Speaker 1: And I know you can feel that for me.

Speaker 1: You're like oh my God.

Speaker 1: Are you going to repeat yourself for the 20th time.

Speaker 2: Exactly.

Speaker 1: And it was watching this session.

Speaker 1: I was shocked at how well I explained my perspective.

Speaker 1: Now I'll be clear.

Speaker 1: Like you did.

Speaker 1: I love that.

Speaker 1: That's what you took from it.

Speaker 1: Oh my God.

Speaker 1: I explained myself so well.

Speaker 1: No I explained myself so well but like not getting into the feelings of what's actually happening.

Speaker 1: You stayed on the surface.

Speaker 1: I'm very clever at okay let me give you all the logical.

Speaker 1: But like just now I just want to explain what happened because you did invite me into a cognitive part.

Speaker 1: What's your perspective of this to you in terms of how you hold it.

Speaker 1: And so there we go.

Speaker 1: I took the bait even just now.

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 1: You took the bait just to make sure our listeners understand what we're referring to as opposed to just like you know a surface level non-attach.

Speaker 1: Oh Figs is the fearful one.

Speaker 1: He's more into social distancing.

Speaker 1: I'm more likely to value the kids and me having a fun social interaction.

Speaker 1: Like some of your description went into again justifying and making sure you're understood.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 1: And so it's just good to know that again you're a human being.

Speaker 1: But to make it simple.

Speaker 1: I feel I am a human being.

Speaker 1: I think that's really a good point about me.

Speaker 1: And I'm not always in this position in our conflicts.

Speaker 1: And so it's really good to recognize I'm defensive as hell.

Speaker 1: And defensive as hell.

Speaker 1: You need to keep explaining.

Speaker 1: So I do believe in science.

Speaker 1: And that's your like line.

Speaker 1: I do.

Speaker 1: I believe.

Speaker 1: You could make fun of me.

Speaker 1: There's sharks in the water.

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 2: Exactly.

Speaker 1: I'll keep like that.

Speaker 1: There's another danger.

Speaker 1: Well to be clear for our listeners what that means.

Speaker 1: You already broke it down in Figs but I'll break down what you do honey.

Speaker 1: Because you kind of pointed out for me is that.

Speaker 1: And Figs said did you feel a bit embarrassed for me in that session.

Speaker 1: Because I felt a bit embarrassed for you.

Speaker 1: And I was like oh man that's so honest.

Speaker 1: Like I hate that.

Speaker 1: And that I did.

Speaker 1: I did feel embarrassed for Figs because his fear kind of comes out over and over again.

Speaker 2: I keep explaining.

Speaker 1: You keep explaining as well.

Speaker 1: And so what we're getting at is that there's some underlying attachment significant moments.

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 1: That are happening underneath this conversation about pandemics.

Speaker 1: And this can happen around world events.

Speaker 1: Political events.

Speaker 1: Sure.

Speaker 1: Holidays and family gatherings.

Speaker 1: You know non-pandemic time stuff anyway.

Speaker 1: So it's just a really important piece is to recognize what's actually happening inside for me.

Speaker 1: And inside for me.

Speaker 1: I'm feeling like Figs isn't happy with me.

Speaker 1: And I get it wrong.

Speaker 1: And it's like I've got to defend myself.

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: It makes sense.

Speaker 1: You're going to defend yourself and explain that you do believe in science.

Speaker 1: You're going to kill me.

Speaker 1: I keep repeating your line.

Speaker 1: Thank you.

Speaker 1: This is my last probably 10-15 minutes listeners of my life.

Speaker 1: Soon to be murdered by my wife.

Speaker 2: Okay.

Speaker 2: That's a joke.

Speaker 1: Yes.

Speaker 1: Okay.

Speaker 1: But so yeah look we'll try and like cut to the scene.

Speaker 1: Here's I think a good way to summarize.

Speaker 1: Botile and I have different sensitivities.

Speaker 1: You can feel more out of control and pain if you're not connected with other people.

Speaker 1: And you see the kids not connected with other people.

Speaker 1: And so it makes sense that you to try and get out of feeling that way could have a greater propensity to try and make contact with other people.

Speaker 1: I have a greater sensitivity to not feeling safe in the world.

Speaker 1: And so it makes sense because I have that greater sensitivity to not feeling safe in the world that I will prioritize safety over social contact.

Speaker 1: I love how you put that.

Speaker 1: Wow.

Speaker 1: I felt so understood.

Speaker 1: Really.

Speaker 2: Oh good.

Speaker 1: Like I felt really understood.

Speaker 2: Great.

Speaker 1: And I love how you put it.

Speaker 1: So let me just thank you for the validation.

Speaker 1: But I want to make sure.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: So so that's this underlying sensitivity that's in both of us that's not related to each other.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: And now we have two other factors that come in.

Speaker 1: One is an external factor to our relationship.

Speaker 1: We live inside the COVID-19 pandemic.

Speaker 1: And so there's literally a reason why Biggs's brain could get.

Speaker 1: It's scary because it is right.

Speaker 1: And there is a reason why Teal's brain could go.

Speaker 1: I'm going to suffer.

Speaker 1: My kids are going to suffer from now social interaction.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: So there's an external reason for why these places inside of us are going to be triggered.

Speaker 1: And then the last factor is then that kicks off our emotional cycle between each other.

Speaker 1: So we have this underlying vulnerabilities and how we interact with the world.

Speaker 1: And then if I start with myself, if I'm then looking at Teal and asking her and I'll just, you know, use a silly example from when the pandemic started.

Speaker 1: Like, why aren't you washing the groceries before you bring them into the house?

Speaker 1: That is not a great example.

Speaker 1: It makes sense.

Speaker 1: So that could hit your vulnerability.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: You know, and that you could then react to me, defend or explain yourself, which of course, then the scared part of me didn't feel heard and understood.

Speaker 1: So I'm probably going to have to double down and explain myself.

Speaker 1: And so we get in an emotional cycle with each other.

Speaker 1: What we're hoping that you're going to get from this session is you get to see the values discussion, safety versus contact, but realize it's not just as simple as you need to resolve the values issue.

Speaker 1: You need to better understand what's the emotional relational bonding issue that then comes up between us because of these different values.

Speaker 1: And that's the most important to solve for.

Speaker 1: And then from that, then you can work on having a solution for now, how do we face the pandemic together as a team?

Speaker 1: So that's what, like, so hopefully, you know, this session is useful.

Speaker 1: You get to hear two therapists talk through an issue.

Speaker 1: Anything you want to say before we pass it over?

Speaker 1: I think you explained it great.

Speaker 1: And let's just watch or listen.

Speaker 1: Watch or listen.

Speaker 1: And both.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Well, this is the thing.

Speaker 1: Look, here at the domain, there's an emotional piece between you and I.

Speaker 1: Like, this is just a thing in general that in the general term we're talking about with COVID is like, look, if there's something.

Speaker 1: I just feel it's it is my own thing.

Speaker 1: It's hard to keep a boundary.

Speaker 1: And then I feel so that's mine.

Speaker 1: And I feel like you'll keep going.

Speaker 1: Like, you know, let's say if you said, I want to I want us to go.

Speaker 1: I want us to fly to Fiji.

Speaker 1: Like, let's say I'm just making something up like you won't you won't stop asking or making moves towards that happening regardless of what I say.

Speaker 1: Like, I'm gonna have to keep like saying no is not it's just not a one time thing.

Speaker 1: I'm gonna have to have the strength and fortitude to say no 20 times.

Speaker 1: I think so.

Speaker 1: I think right now you're actually shooting yourself in the foot.

Speaker 1: The first thing that you said is there's an emotional piece between you and I.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: And so that's the part that I am here for.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Because if you tell me about how I push things over and over again, especially something it's like, it's not a good example to talk about flying because it makes them think that like, I'm not a believer in science, which I am.

Speaker 1: But, but yeah, what I I actually have a hidden fear about all of this as well.

Speaker 1: And that's that I hear you saying, it's hard for me to keep boundaries, right?

Speaker 1: And it's hard for me to say no.

Speaker 1: And we've talked about, sometimes I run things by figs that feel really inappropriate for him.

Speaker 1: And he has to be the no person.

Speaker 1: And I've tried to say, look, it's not like he's like, why don't you come up with that?

Speaker 1: No yourself.

Speaker 1: And I was like, you're right.

Speaker 1: And it's something I'm working on.

Speaker 1: It's like, it's not like I really think I do this.

Speaker 1: It's like, I actually, I have so many rules that override basic common sense about this virus that have to do with family and friendship.

Speaker 1: And it's like, that's where my center of organizing is.

Speaker 1: And so I need help.

Speaker 2: Right.

Speaker 1: But it does feel my sense, my fear is that you feel really alone with how we've.

Speaker 1: I feel burdened by, and again, this is just me.

Speaker 1: I feel burdened that I have to be the ultimate holder of boundaries around this.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: So the extreme version figs for you would be to just hold your own boundary, but the consequences are pretty dire because you'd have to say, look, I'm not comfortable with this level.

Speaker 1: I'm going to start wearing a mask in the home.

Speaker 1: We're not going to sleep in the same bed.

Speaker 1: You're not going to do real.

Speaker 1: It doesn't seem like it's not an option.

Speaker 1: And it goes to other, like there's been these moments so many other times in our relationship before this.

Speaker 1: And that has to do with Teal has her mindset on something.

Speaker 1: She's less safety oriented than figs.

Speaker 1: And who ends up getting to do what they fucking want is me.

Speaker 1: I push and push and push for what I want.

Speaker 1: Hardly strictly bluegrass figs is really afraid of, you know, are there, could there be some like a mass shooting that happens there?

Speaker 1: Like there was a time that was the thing to be most scared.

Speaker 1: And it makes sense.

Speaker 1: And, you know, and I'm there like, oh my God, we can't like not live our life because we're afraid of this one thing.

Speaker 1: And Hey, security's like this, this year and whatever it is, I whittled down his perspective or I throw enough of a temper tantrum to get my way.

Speaker 1: And I end up taking our kids.

Speaker 1: You don't do a temper tantrum, but you're just persistent.

Speaker 1: I'm persistent.

Speaker 1: You're not a temper tantrum.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: But I think I'm powerful in that.

Speaker 1: Like I'm, it's like, you're going to be, you're unrelenting.

Speaker 1: I'm unrelenting.

Speaker 1: And so what it's like, I feel like, like so many couples, I feel like COVID has been absolute crap for us in a way that we were already a little bit vulnerable.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Cause we already know.

Speaker 1: Thank you.

Speaker 1: You explained it.

Speaker 1: What I was trying to say with the Fiji making up an example.

Speaker 1: That's exactly, I just, yeah.

Speaker 1: And then look with COVID, it just feels a little bit more desperate just because I don't know what to do.

Speaker 1: And I'm really worried we're way past.

Speaker 1: And I literally don't know how to wind it back.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Well, there's two things that I kind of picked up.

Speaker 1: One was Teal pointing to a possible fear tendency of yours, Figs, that she doesn't want to cave, always cave to.

Speaker 1: And the other side of it is that you're saying Figs is like, where's your fear about this virus, Teal?

Speaker 1: I mean, I know you believe in science, but how is that operating in you?

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Well, yeah, no.

Speaker 1: So let me just say, I think you're totally right.

Speaker 1: Like there's a great, here's what I would say.

Speaker 1: There's this dynamic between us that it is wonderful for me that Teal's not as fearful for me.

Speaker 1: You know what I'm saying?

Speaker 1: When this began, like, you know, we swim straight out, straight out from the shore, like a third of a mile.

Speaker 1: Like I would never do that without Teal.

Speaker 2: Right.

Speaker 1: Like, even though I love it, the next day she says, are you ready?

Speaker 1: I'm like, no, I'm not going out again.

Speaker 1: And then I do it and I love it.

Speaker 1: I'm so glad I like, I have those experiences.

Speaker 1: She's like living full life.

Speaker 1: I'd be at the shore going, oh, is everyone okay out there?

Speaker 1: You know, but I think that's great.

Speaker 1: But the flip side, the bad side of it is so on a day to day, there's so many ways this part of Teal enriches my life.

Speaker 1: And then there's this other part where, oh my God, like, I don't think this is the right thing to do.

Speaker 1: What I really feel that way.

Speaker 1: And I think it's important.

Speaker 1: It's not just, I'm a fearful person.

Speaker 1: Absolutely.

Speaker 1: And I feel like you're just like some fearful person.

Speaker 2: Right.

Speaker 1: Like I really believe.

Speaker 1: Oh, some in some ways, sometimes it matches reality.

Speaker 1: And like, even the thing with the, you know, could there be a mass shooting at bluegrass this year?

Speaker 1: It's like, would I hear that?

Speaker 1: Maybe I would read it somewhere and I would just fricking dismiss it.

Speaker 1: And like, it would be out of my mind, like not as something that's crucial.

Speaker 1: And then does life hit me upside the head sometimes where it's like, oh, that was a fear you should have paid attention to figs.

Speaker 1: You bring a lot there and it's helped me see the world and keep our kids healthy and safe.

Speaker 1: Can I just say like, so here's, and it's like, I don't want to hijack it from my fear.

Speaker 1: Cause I think this is really important about you, but is like, I just feel like there's like the grim Reaper, like, like resting under my bed around this.

Speaker 1: Like my ultimate fear is like your life philosophy is so strong and you're so headstrong and stubborn and you will do whatever the heck that you really want.

Speaker 1: And it's going to, and it no, I'm talking about myself.

Speaker 1: No, but it could be at the cost.

Speaker 1: Like my fear is that someday you're just going to be like, I always have like this vision, like FIGS is going to tell like his next girlfriend, his wife.

Speaker 1: He's like, she just would not like, I wasn't ultimately able to really have a voice in this relationship and have someone really listened to me and really collaborate.

Speaker 1: And so are you saying you think your ultimate fear is I'm going to reject you because of this part?

Speaker 1: My fear is that, that this is a really, really big deal.

Speaker 1: And I actually like, unlike most things where I have, I can like, I can shift and I can collaborate and I can understand your perspective.

Speaker 1: I am so concerned that I'm actually not able to pull myself back from like my, and I'm like, I'm worried at how I'm like YOLO about it.

Speaker 1: Do you feel like you're like, is that kind of a quality of that, you know, in yourself, that independent of FIGS that you actually would like to kind of unpack more and cannot have it drive you so much.

Speaker 1: I don't know if I'm saying it quite right.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: I mean, but I think I just want to acknowledge like, here's where I'm at.

Speaker 1: I just, I really, I'm, it's like, I feel the strength of my spirit and I also feel like it's like, I bridle myself to be in a relationship and to collaborate, you know, about things all the time.

Speaker 1: And I don't always do exactly what I want, but I just feel like, like, what if this has such a, like who I am has such a devastating risk, like impact on my partner.

Speaker 2: And what if I lose this person because I'm just who I am and I'm not able to like control myself.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: But by the way, again, the problem I have is not that you're going to lose me that I would leave.

Speaker 1: It's that I will, I would die.

Speaker 1: Well, with the virus.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Or like, maybe it's not helpful.

Speaker 1: I remember like when both our kids were really little and Seal really wanted to go downtown San Francisco at 8 p.m. at night, you know, to see the Christmas lights.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: I'm like, you know, I'm like, I go, I don't want to go, but I'll go because I am literally like a secret service agent.

Speaker 1: I mean, there are just people like, you know, everywhere for all over the Bay or in downtown San Francisco, I'm literally, you know, and some of this, cause I grew up in Dublin city.

Speaker 1: Like I know what Christmas is like downtown.

Speaker 1: I'm literally.

Speaker 1: Somebody's going to grab your kid and run.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: They're just, well, we're going to grab them, but you know, there's, I know what do I think is going to happen, but you know, there are fights and there are people drunk and they're homeless.

Speaker 1: Like, it's just, I don't want my kids downtown in the dark at Christmas time with drunk people and like, and so I go, but I go to be their secret service agent.

Speaker 1: And he's pissed and resentful the entire time.

Speaker 1: I'm watching.

Speaker 1: I'm basically watching everyone.

Speaker 1: I've got a little thing.

Speaker 1: It is sad, but no, don't get me wrong.

Speaker 1: It's sad.

Speaker 1: So look.

Speaker 1: And it's also sad for me because I went to have a wonderful time.

Speaker 1: And, and, and actually this happened, this is a big one for us because like, you're just like no fun in those places.

Speaker 1: Like I understand, but you're just like, I'm just like, stay home.

Speaker 1: Like, it's going to be okay.

Speaker 1: No, but I can't say the things you're talking about it in a way, like, you know, that it's a little exaggerated from what the real risk is.

Speaker 1: Well, so this is the thing.

Speaker 1: Like, so yes.

Speaker 1: Sometimes like me, like, Oh, I don't know about swimming out there.

Speaker 1: Oh my God.

Speaker 1: I'm so glad I get past that.

Speaker 1: And I swim out there.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: It's great.

Speaker 1: I feel like you're being gentle.

Speaker 1: I feel like you need to just be able to like, like, what are you waiting for?

Speaker 1: To feel like safe enough to, to like how you, like you're being so validating and nice right now.

Speaker 1: No, I think there are times where I'm so glad that my, I override my fear and you helped me override my fear so that I live life.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: You know, not just like scared and anxious.

Speaker 1: And there are times where actually, no, the way you, you are insistent on overriding my fear is, is not good.

Speaker 1: Like, you know, the funny way I think of it is like, you know, the way like, all, you know, sometimes I talk about our ancestors that went down into cellars with the light off late at night.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: They're gone.

Speaker 1: We don't have any because they all died.

Speaker 1: They all knew do not go down into this cellar of an abandoned house with the light off.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Teal's and Teal is like, okay, I'm going down.

Speaker 1: Like Teal is just like, I don't know how her ancestors, how she got here.

Speaker 1: Cause he seems to be from a line of people that just goes out.

Speaker 1: She goes, she swims out and fights sharks on the other days.

Speaker 1: Well, by the way, you come here.

Speaker 1: I think we told you this.

Speaker 1: There was a shark in the water and Teal and her mom and the kids did not get out of the water.

Speaker 1: They would not get out of the water.

Speaker 1: But listen, but like, but like go to the part of you that like you're worried about, like that's all I care about.

Speaker 1: I'm like, let's get down to the business because I'm not going to burn.

Speaker 1: You'll like die internally to just be like, I never can really have a say with this person.

Speaker 1: Most of the time, it's just frustrating.

Speaker 1: And then it's fine.

Speaker 1: Like, I'm going to have to drive somewhere because you're insisting on driving and I'm not going to let you drive alone with the two kids.

Speaker 1: So I'm going to have to do it.

Speaker 1: It's just annoying.

Speaker 1: But the COVID thing is a little different because I'm worried that I or someone else as a result of being in contact with us will actually die.

Speaker 1: There's obviously myself, but then there's some old person that unfortunately their cousin's sister hung out with us.

Speaker 1: I think you're saying this is harder for you to get through.

Speaker 1: This is a boundary inside you that you're not willing to just chalk up to your fear.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: But, but I also don't know how to unwind where we are.

Speaker 1: So I feel a little powerful.

Speaker 1: Like, like, you know, this stuff, like, look, you insist on driving this weekend to your dad's house.

Speaker 1: I'm coming with you.

Speaker 1: It's relatively easy to like deal with, but this feels really confusing.

Speaker 1: What do we do?

Speaker 1: We pull our kids out of school.

Speaker 1: What do we do?

Speaker 1: And I think, like, I want to be able to own my parts of this.

Speaker 1: Like, I think you're right.

Speaker 1: I think I chip away slowly at some of the strong boundaries that, you know, we've had.

Speaker 1: And, you know, you talk about survival, walking down into the cellar.

Speaker 1: I think this is survival for me is like, you know, how to like create an ideal environment for my kids.

Speaker 1: And I think it's comes at, you know, at, at costs to our relationship.

Speaker 1: So I just want to say it doesn't come my intention.

Speaker 1: And I know it doesn't matter, but my intention is to help our families survive.

Speaker 1: And I don't want that to be at the cost.

Speaker 1: You know, I, it's like, I'm here because my mom, like, I want my mom to not ever be the cost of, you know, ignorance or denial or whatever.

Speaker 1: But I think, or just it's shift, just different priorities.

Speaker 1: Like I look other times in, in life, in different contexts, you're prioritizing social engagement and fun adventures for our kids and making sure they're not bored and they don't feel alone is amazing thing.

Speaker 1: Our inability to, to have those experience at this particular moment in human history.

Speaker 1: I don't know if it's an amazing thing.

Speaker 1: Like why, why, why can't we just suffer through, we're just going to be alone for four or five months.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: I mean, I think I, I, I want you to also take ownership for being part of for like sending her in person school.

Speaker 1: Like this isn't like, Oh no, we really should do this.

Speaker 1: This is like, I think in the short term, like we see serious, like our, our son running after kids.

Speaker 1: He hasn't been no, but before he got into school, remember he wouldn't have had any kid interaction.

Speaker 1: He would just start running towards a kid.

Speaker 1: And of course people would like run away from him, but like, it was like an agony of not getting to socialize.

Speaker 1: So it's seeing someone's heart break.

Speaker 1: And then our schools are not like some, like, no masks.

Speaker 1: It's all good.

Speaker 1: I'm not going to sanitize.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: These are people that are like, and we, yeah, we've followed up on protocols.

Speaker 1: It's like, it's important to us.

Speaker 1: And you've signed up for these moments.

Speaker 1: So I don't like suddenly being like, it's not all like chipped away at things like you are consenting adult.

Speaker 1: And I think that that's the part you're trying to like relinquish is you feel like you've no, I feel it.

Speaker 1: I'm outside of my, it's again, by a thousand blows.

Speaker 1: Now it's kind of like, Holy shit.

Speaker 1: Where, how do we get to this place that the school you're in?

Speaker 1: It's we, it's we, we, we have gotten into the place that not how it feels.

Speaker 1: Like it feels like you're doing this.

Speaker 1: It usually comes out when I'm scared and I get it.

Speaker 1: That's the point figs.

Speaker 1: What are you feeling in this dilemma inside?

Speaker 1: What does it feel like?

Speaker 1: I feel power right now.

Speaker 1: My biggest thing right now is I feel powerless.

Speaker 1: I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm not as scared as I used to be.

Speaker 1: And that actually weirdly, you know, scares me a little bit, but I just have brief moment, you know, that Senator that, that, that new Congressman that died in Louisiana at 41 years old, there was a moment reading that where I got back in touch with, Oh shit, that's really scary.

Speaker 1: Or some like, you know, someone on birthday party, people were dying that are not that unhealthy.

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 1: You know, and then, you know, you hear about the contact tracing of some one baby shower leads to, you know, 200 people being infected, right?

Speaker 2: Right.

Speaker 1: Like four degrees of separation further down the road, you know?

Speaker 1: So those things I read and go, Oh my God, even if I live and everyone I love lives, we're going to, like, we're going to be responsible for other people getting really sick.

Speaker 1: That really scares me.

Speaker 1: But then I don't know how, what to do.

Speaker 1: I don't know how to unwind it.

Speaker 1: So maybe a different approach is to talk with to you.

Speaker 1: Like, how can we change this?

Speaker 1: Well, you know, and I, again, to Teal's point, I do try and talk about it, but I usually bring it up in a moment where I'm getting, you know, I'm, I'm not right now.

Speaker 1: I'm really not activated.

Speaker 1: But Teal's point, when I bring it up to her outside of this moment is usually I'm in a combo of the fear and powerlessness.

Speaker 1: And then you point to her.

Speaker 1: I'm blaming, I'm frustrated with her, because I see her as some, I see you in that moment as someone, you know, I'm alone, right?

Speaker 1: Because you won't be a participant with me in trying to really think.

Speaker 1: And I get, all I do is get defensive and, and, and placate you.

Speaker 1: How is it Teal for FIGS to honor that?

Speaker 1: You're a good placater.

Speaker 1: You're like, yes, FIGS.

Speaker 1: Oh, yes.

Speaker 1: Oh, thank you.

Speaker 1: Well, because I do agree with it.

Speaker 1: Like, I get it.

Speaker 1: And I understand, you know, the thing with like checking in about unrealistic things.

Speaker 1: Here, this one has water.

Speaker 1: Oh, thank you.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: I mean, it's not just placating.

Speaker 1: Like I am trying, I can see that you're wound up.

Speaker 1: And in that moment, I'm like, Okay, you need to just chill out.

Speaker 1: And what can I do to help him get off my ass?

Speaker 1: But I'm, I think, but sometimes I've come back in a deescalated time and said, Hey, like, I heard what you said, and I'm not sure what to do.

Speaker 1: And I know, we signed our kids up for in person school.

Speaker 1: And, you know, we have a little bit more of a discussion about it.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: I mean, look, one of the things I'm hoping at the very least, I just want like this new, what do you call it?

Speaker 1: Strange, strange, strange, new, strange hits.

Speaker 1: So I just think we should shut down.

Speaker 1: Absolutely.

Speaker 1: Just because, you know, like kids now are more susceptible to be carriers.

Speaker 2: Exactly.

Speaker 1: And I see what's happening in Ireland.

Speaker 1: We're, we're, we're on board with that.

Speaker 1: And listen, you know, the way that I, and I don't even tell you this, but like, I'm like, I have a stockpile of like kinetic sand and toys.

Speaker 1: Like, I'm like preparing, I'm preparing for us to shut down.

Speaker 2: Right?

Speaker 1: Like, it's, it's not something I think is not going to happen here.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: It's something that I think is gonna, I think it should happen if that if that it's inevitable that that train gets here.

Speaker 1: So it's just a matter of time.

Speaker 1: So you're surprised to hear that from Teal?

Speaker 1: Did you know that she was thinking that?

Speaker 1: Well, no, I'm not surprised to hear it.

Speaker 1: But I do have, I'll tell you, I think what my mind, just to Teal's earlier point, that there's a way in which, you know, Teal is who she is, that I have some doubts at her ability to execute.

Speaker 1: I believe, I believe her a hundred percent.

Speaker 1: But when we did a two week quarantine here with our kids.

Speaker 1: Yeah, you, well, yeah.

Speaker 1: What?

Speaker 1: Well, you still have to push on the back end or had to be, remember, one day, like we had a difference in the opinion of what was 14 days.

Speaker 1: That is bullshit.

Speaker 1: Okay.

Speaker 1: It's 14 days, depending on how you looked at it.

Speaker 1: And figs was railing on me for like, it would have been 13.

Speaker 1: And look, we got in the same dynamic where I want, I felt.

Speaker 1: No, I was a boundary.

Speaker 1: And no, but this is the thing is I feel incredibly unseen.

Speaker 1: If that's how you're seeing that experience.

Speaker 1: And Hey, what did I do in San Francisco?

Speaker 1: Like I would go for day every day.

Speaker 1: Figs is working.

Speaker 1: I'm working.

Speaker 1: I go out for six hours on my own with the kids.

Speaker 1: Just the two of them.

Speaker 2: Right.

Speaker 2: Picnics, right.

Speaker 1: Adjust us masks.

Speaker 1: Like I can do this.

Speaker 1: I have done this and I have showed you with my action.

Speaker 1: Yes.

Speaker 1: I don't need to promise it.

Speaker 1: I don't need to like whole have it as the Holy grail that I'm trying to strive for.

Speaker 1: I have showed this and I can do that.

Speaker 1: And I'm, I'm expecting to do that.

Speaker 1: Not seeing my mom, not seeing my brother.

Speaker 1: I mean, I totally, I could see Teal doing that.

Speaker 1: She's totally capable.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Absolutely.

Speaker 1: So you're remembering the little moments where you feel like she's not honoring your fear.

Speaker 1: No, no, no.

Speaker 1: I'm not saying this is true.

Speaker 1: I appreciate hearing what you're saying.

Speaker 1: I just think it will be harder here because of your mom and your brother and the look, we're part of why we're so happy.

Speaker 1: It's lovely.

Speaker 1: We've, we've much better daily interaction.

Speaker 1: The kids do, we do, we've a very quickly.

Speaker 1: And so it's, in some ways it's, it's harder to go backwards here for us than it was in San Francisco.

Speaker 1: Like, you know, one of the things that is really sad when we went in lockdown in March in San Francisco, what was pretty pathetic was my life.

Speaker 1: Hadn't changed very much.

Speaker 1: I know what you mean.

Speaker 1: Like, what did I do?

Speaker 1: I went for bike rides.

Speaker 1: I went for walks on my own around the park.

Speaker 1: Oh, I still go for bike rides.

Speaker 1: I'm walked around the right.

Speaker 1: And it's nothing changed your life change, but you know, and you, you had a bigger burden now my life would like, look, it's just, you have a good thing, but I mean, not to be hard on yourselves for getting into this good life because the virus wasn't bad in Hawaii, you know, virus wasn't bad.

Speaker 1: And look, I, and if, if hanging out on the beach with other people is really dangerous, like Hawaii should be the worst place in America.

Speaker 1: Everyone's on the beach.

Speaker 1: No one's It doesn't seem to be a big place of transmission, but you just, cause it doesn't make any sense that the numbers aren't out of control or everything's outdoors.

Speaker 1: We never, and even when we're in our hat, we are windows and doors are open 24, seven fans going, okay, can I just, let's just take a moment to metaprocess.

Speaker 1: What, what is it?

Speaker 1: Cause I, I don't necessarily feel, I mean, I guess I feel a little bit more understood myself.

Speaker 1: I feel like I understand you more.

Speaker 1: I feel like it helped me to just voice that.

Speaker 1: I have actually like, I have an awareness and a concern about this that looks very different than the placating part of me, but looks more like me at the bottom of a pit, like in darkness, screaming up and being like, don't let me fuck this up.

Speaker 1: And like feeling a lot of pressure on myself.

Speaker 1: And yet a lot of like almost my nervous system doesn't let me make choices sometimes.

Speaker 1: And, and so it just, I think maybe it helps me to just be able to let you know, I hear what you're saying and I really, really fucking care.

Speaker 1: And I'm not sure how to change them.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Well, it's just great.

Speaker 1: I appreciate you just saying that.

Speaker 1: And like you, my only request is look, I understand that in any given moment in time, when in just an actual instant of time where there's a choice between there's this amazing experience or there's a way to enrich our lives, true contact with the world.

Speaker 1: You might be more prone to choose contact with the world over safety denial.

Speaker 1: And I just hope that you'll be willing to slow down and study, you know, and, and maybe consider, maybe you guys could double down on some science research to get on this, make sure you know what the risks are and where you should clamp down or where you don't need to, and do that together and share the information, you know?

Speaker 1: I mean, I've heard that the elementary schools aren't so bad at spread.

Speaker 2: I don't know why, but not with the old strain, but potentially with the new strain.

Speaker 1: But I'm open to that.

Speaker 1: It's a good suggestion.

Speaker 1: And I guess I feel like there's a part two to this.

Speaker 1: And we obviously won't go there today.

Speaker 1: It's just like, I'd like to know more about your experience.

Speaker 1: What I was going to say was maybe one of the things that I noticed happening is that you get into your fear, even though today you said you weren't in it in the session so much.

Speaker 1: Something about it seemed to me like it was driving your kind of pointing at Teal for being relentless.

Speaker 1: And there was sort of like these global statements about Teal.

Speaker 1: And I was wondering if maybe to start with your vulnerability more often, like, I'm actually really scared.

Speaker 1: I'm scared about this for me and for us and for your mom.

Speaker 1: I don't know if you are, but I'm scared.

Speaker 1: Absolutely.

Speaker 1: I am.

Speaker 1: Absolutely.

Speaker 1: And yeah, I'm much more scared in general.

Speaker 1: No, but that invites my own fear.

Speaker 1: I'm scared right now because I hear our son screaming.

Speaker 1: All right.

Speaker 1: How was that for you just to see yourself and see me again?

Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, it was really good.

Speaker 1: It's interesting.

Speaker 1: I feel more concerned about us being judged like over this particular episode than other ones, you know?

Speaker 1: So it's interesting.

Speaker 1: I can feel the urge in me to do more of the explaining my point of view, right?

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 1: But there are sharks, there is a virus.

Speaker 1: What about the new strain?

Speaker 1: And I can only imagine, I just want to say it.

Speaker 1: You want to say, but I believe in science.

Speaker 1: I believe in science.

Speaker 1: I'm going to tattoo that.

Speaker 1: Your next birthday present is I'm going to give you a I believe in science tattoo.

Speaker 1: I'm having like a shame reaction where I want to roll on the floor and be a wiggly worm.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Well, look, no, thank you for saying that.

Speaker 1: And look, I can feel bad too.

Speaker 1: It's like, you know, all the listeners and my clients are going to go, oh my God, why would we go see Biggs?

Speaker 1: He's Mr. Fearful Pants.

Speaker 1: But here's an important point.

Speaker 1: Here's what we're doing.

Speaker 1: We allow ourselves to feel our feelings, you know, and then we know what the feelings are, but we don't get carried away by them.

Speaker 1: We're purposely consciously letting ourselves feel our fears, feel our powerlessness, and then be able to describe what we're feeling inside while still feeling it.

Speaker 1: And notice what we do to move away from the feelings, the vulnerable feelings, and then see the impact it has on each other.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Like we are so lucky to get to re-listen and re-watch these sessions that we're having because we actually didn't get it so much or I didn't get it.

Speaker 1: Like I was so in the mind of like, did I explain myself?

Speaker 1: Oh, I think I was so good at explaining myself.

Speaker 1: That when figs is like, we did it over and over again.

Speaker 1: I was like, oh my gosh, there were moments where you start to see a more primary place, kind of a deep down place inside for me and a deep down place inside for figs.

Speaker 1: And if you're watching for those moments, you'll see that they actually happen a lot in our sessions.

Speaker 1: And so that's the thing that you want to be really cognizant of is I can feel that I'm, you know, seen as incompetent and not doing it right in the relationship.

Speaker 1: Which, when that's your story, that you're perceived that way, whether I am actually perceiving you that way or not perceiving you that way, what's the vulnerable feeling that you have deep down inside?

Speaker 1: Oh, if you're perceiving me as not competent, I mean, I feel like, well, I feel not appreciated, which is not a vulnerable feeling, but I feel like I'm just not able to do it right.

Speaker 1: Like, I'm like, oh, I'm actually bad or I'm doing my best.

Speaker 1: Like, it's so hard even right now when you ask me that fix, because I feel it like buried underneath a pile of shit.

Speaker 1: And I'm not saying I'm shit, I'm saying that...

Speaker 1: Slow down for just a second.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Because you talk about it in the episode and like you said, it's buried in there and you could miss it.

Speaker 1: It's even buried right now.

Speaker 1: What is it that you're scared could happen if you feel you touch your own sense of incompetence inside yourself or you imagine I see you as incompetent?

Speaker 1: He's going really big right now.

Speaker 1: Again, I feel like a wiggly worm.

Speaker 1: I want to go down onto the floor and hide.

Speaker 1: But stop it.

Speaker 1: I'm getting to it.

Speaker 1: Leave me alone.

Speaker 2: See, I'm not.

Speaker 1: I'm trying to stop you from exiting your vulnerability.

Speaker 1: Well, thank you.

Speaker 1: But it actually is making me want to run for the hills.

Speaker 1: No, I'm afraid I'm going to fuck this up.

Speaker 1: And I'm afraid that I'm going to lose you.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: He just wanted to hear, look at him.

Speaker 1: He's so happy.

Speaker 1: That's why I didn't like it.

Speaker 1: If you could see the video...

Speaker 1: And scene.

Speaker 1: And scene.

Speaker 1: No, but look, that's so great to know, right?

Speaker 1: Underneath the...

Speaker 1: I do believe in science, right?

Speaker 1: You can contain it.

Speaker 2: You're so happy right now.

Speaker 1: Underneath the I do believe in science, like that's our shorthand for you explaining yourself, right, is actually I am really scared that I'm not seen as competent, that I'm not believed in and that I would lose you, that you would leave me.

Speaker 2: Exactly.

Speaker 1: Like, you know, like you could imagine if like you said, hey, I'm scared.

Speaker 1: And someone tells you all the reasons why you shouldn't be scared.

Speaker 1: And that makes sense what I'm doing.

Speaker 1: You could just be annoyed with them.

Speaker 1: But if you just dive a little bit deeper, you can find out, oh, sure, for flip's sake, the only reason you're saying that over and over again is you actually feel really vulnerable and you're scared and not loved and believed in.

Speaker 1: That looks so different to you.

Speaker 1: And that I might leave you.

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 1: That helps dramatically.

Speaker 1: Now, there's a similar process with me.

Speaker 1: It's like not leave me off the hook.

Speaker 1: You can ask me if you want, or I'll just share.

Speaker 1: Oh, Carol, I am asking.

Speaker 1: Okay, go ahead.

Speaker 1: No, but like, you know, before we move on to yours and look, I don't feel like it needs to be a tit for tat.

Speaker 1: I think there's going to be space and time to hear more about that.

Speaker 1: But I'm happy to be honest about what my stuff is, but that's okay.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Well, it sounds like you're willing and available, which I think is brilliant and is really brave.

Speaker 1: And I just wanted to say sort of shorthand, simple style.

Speaker 1: The thing that's happening on the inside is so hidden, is so disguised by my protectiveness.

Speaker 1: And by the way, I like saying that more than defensiveness, but.

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 1: It's a rational thing to do to protect yourself when you think you're at risk of being rejected or abandoned.

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 1: Like it's adaptive.

Speaker 1: It's not a bad part of me.

Speaker 1: I am a good explainer, but the tragedy is that Figs doesn't get to see, honey, you're so important to me.

Speaker 1: I just feel like, how do I be myself?

Speaker 1: And you still love me and you understand I do care.

Speaker 1: And we're in it together and you're so mad at me, but I really want to take care of our family like this.

Speaker 1: And I am safe.

Speaker 1: You know, it's again, the defensiveness.

Speaker 1: It's very hard for me not to do it.

Speaker 1: As opposed to just getting some place where I only share, hey, listen, I'm defending and I'm explaining myself, but really I'm starting to feel the place.

Speaker 1: I feel bad about myself.

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 1: But you know what?

Speaker 1: It's gradients.

Speaker 1: So it's a big step for me to do it right now.

Speaker 1: And I'm feeling, you know, it's at a capacity for me.

Speaker 1: So if it feels good free and just maybe some topics I'm less intense about, but I think you're right.

Speaker 1: There's a piece around this pandemic and how you hold it where there's a lot of, you know, culturally important pieces here in terms of socializing and cultural differences between Figs and I, and by the way, cultural differences are going to be something that Figs and I do talk about in the later episode.

Speaker 1: But anyway, do you want to give the listeners a sense of your...

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: So I would just say like, look, I'm scared in the world, like we talked about, and then I'm going to try and change the world.

Speaker 1: I'm going to ask the world to change to make me feel safe.

Speaker 1: And obviously the pandemic is providing like a huge trigger for how I'm going to try and like change the world, ask you to change your behavior, you know, other people.

Speaker 1: But then what happens between you and I is I can hit a place where I feel helpless and powerless and that there's no way I'm going to be heard, that I feel alone with the burden of holding and keeping the family safe and that you don't hear me, right?

Speaker 1: And when I don't feel heard and, you know, I'm in that alone, helpless place, I start to get really overwhelmed and desperate inside.

Speaker 1: And that's where then you only hear that I seem angry and disappointed, but really, I'm feeling terribly alone.

Speaker 1: That just seems like there's no way out of being alone.

Speaker 1: And what that might happen if you're alone, if you feel alone in this relationship, and you feel alone and you feel alone and not a priority and not like a minute with...

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Well, I'm going to be alone forever, right?

Speaker 1: Because that place is a forever place, right?

Speaker 1: I'm going to be alone forever.

Speaker 1: And it just feels really scary, you know?

Speaker 1: And, you know, and it brings up like just it's a deeper place, you know, and it's going to sound crazy.

Speaker 1: I always wonder if there's the non-verbal memory of being in an incubator as a baby.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Like you can bring that place, right?

Speaker 1: And then also like as a kid, you know, going to be left at my granny's house when I was a kid and being alone.

Speaker 1: And there's no way for that.

Speaker 1: Like, as a kid, I don't get the control when that ends.

Speaker 2: Right.

Speaker 1: Like, I don't know, my mom's going to come get me when she gets me.

Speaker 1: My grandparents and uncles and aunts are going to tell me like, oh, aren't you happy being here?

Speaker 1: Like, so I hit a pretty desperate place.

Speaker 1: So I get scared in the world, but then I hit a desperate place when it seems like I can't reach you.

Speaker 1: Really powerless.

Speaker 1: And then we get in the cycle because then if you feel bad about yourself, you're going to defend yourself.

Speaker 1: But it tells me even more, oh my God, I can't reach you.

Speaker 1: I feel even more powerless, more desperate.

Speaker 1: So I'm probably going to look even more disappointed in you.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: And then you're going to feel even more, oh my God, things is going to abandon me because I can't get a grip.

Speaker 1: I can't control.

Speaker 1: So you will explain yourself even more.

Speaker 1: And that's the first thing hopefully you take from this is yes, we got to work our shit out of the pandemic.

Speaker 1: And I know what we're going to do, like moving forward.

Speaker 1: But firstly, can we see that it makes sense that we get into this emotional system with each other?

Speaker 1: Absolutely.

Speaker 1: And can I just say, I am so grateful for you being able to share about that really alone and powerless part.

Speaker 1: It really helps me.

Speaker 1: It's a third take, fourth, take a fifth take, but it feels deeper now than it ever has.

Speaker 1: And, you know, then wrapping it back into that system and cycle.

Speaker 1: So I think just for our listeners to pay attention to the fact that attachment, the bond between you and your partner gets existential hell of quick.

Speaker 1: You'll see that figs went from a, okay, I can be alone in the world and I'm doing this by myself.

Speaker 1: And I have to change the world, which are all really like own it, love that.

Speaker 1: And then he starts to go into the memory, right.

Speaker 1: Of him being a little wee fig in the incubator and then being the younger figs at granny's house and not knowing when mom's going to come back or dad's going to come back.

Speaker 1: And, and so then we get sort of shot into consciousness around when have I felt alone before, and this might happen and this is my fear.

Speaker 1: And that's happening now with my partner, when she seems really defending right.

Speaker 1: And protecting.

Speaker 1: So it's like, we traumatize the three trauma.

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 1: So, so pay attention to this in your relationship.

Speaker 1: See if you can see some of your, you know, protectiveness in the world, your criticism, what might be happening underneath it, that vulnerable place and say, you know, maybe check out, does that have a younger origin for you?

Speaker 1: And if it's too scary to do it by yourself, do it with your therapist or best friend or someone that can like, or your partner, you know, it's really brave to be able to recognize this is some of my stuff, but you know, it comes up in almost intolerable ways, right?

Speaker 1: I thought I was an intolerable little brat in our last session, you know, just with the defending, right.

Speaker 1: I'm embarrassed to myself, but you know what?

Speaker 1: I want you guys to like me.

Speaker 1: And that's, that's a human need.

Speaker 1: I want to be liked.

Speaker 1: I want to be cool.

Speaker 1: I like you anyway.

Speaker 1: Okay.

Speaker 1: So thanks everyone for showing up.

Speaker 2: This was a big one.

Speaker 1: We got really lucky.

Speaker 1: Our kids stayed asleep.

Speaker 1: Yes.

Speaker 1: Let's go make lunches.

Speaker 1: Oh, no, exactly.

Speaker 1: It's time for lunch making.

Speaker 1: I love making, unfortunately, lunch making, although we could make it a little kinky.

Speaker 2: Okay.

Speaker 1: All right.

Speaker 1: A little almond butter on the nose.

Speaker 1: Wow.

Speaker 1: That was a step too far.

Speaker 1: Okay.

Speaker 1: Love you guys.

Speaker 1: See you next week.

Speaker 1: Bye.

Speaker 1: This was come here to be.

Speaker 1: Relationship experts walk the talk.

Speaker 1: Visit come here to meet podcast.com for episode transcripts, social media links, and to subscribe to the mailing list.

Speaker 1: If you or someone you love are struggling in your relationship or just want to work on making things that little bit better, visit us at empathy.com.

Speaker 1: That's empathy with an I on the end, no matter why on the end, we've got quizzes, courses, videos, articles, and free consultations for couples counseling or for relationship coaching.

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