Couples Therapy Works: Healthy couples work as a team against The Cycle… but how do they know they're in it? Figs and Karen break down the signs of and steps in the negative infinity loop that traps all couples.
Couples Therapy Works: Healthy couples work as a team against The Cycle… but how do they know they're in it? Figs and Karen break down the signs of and steps in the negative infinity loop that traps all couples.
In "Seeing The Negative Cycle" Figs and Karen take a close look at the makeup of The Cycle, a concept from Emotionally-Focused Therapy.
A cycle is the negative "infinity loop" every couple inevitably encounters in their relationship, which shows up for partners as conflict they get into over and over.
Figs describes it as a river that is always running underneath your house, but which only rises above ground-level from time to time. The emotional bonding dynamic in your relationship is ever-present, but is most easily accessed in moments of conflict.
To recognize that you are in a negative cycle, Karen suggests paying attention to the language you are using (such as "You always–" and "You never–"), and to what is going on in yourself (are you triggered or reacting with fight/flight/freeze/fawn behaviors)?
Figs explains that if you are experiencing any of the 4 quadrants of the infinity loop, then you are in a cycle.
These quadrants are… You are hurting, you have a negative judgment of your partner, your partner is hurting, and your partner has a negative judgment of you.
Each of these feed into and result from each other, and so if one of those elements is present, Figs emphasizes that it's highly likely they are all present.
All roads to a better relationship pass through "We are in a system together."
Understanding The Cycle is the first step.
Speaker 1: Welcome back listeners and viewers of another Come Here To Me podcast episode with Figs, that's me, and Karen Gordon.
Speaker 1: Welcome, Karen.
Speaker 2: Thank you.
Speaker 1: Karen, what are we going to talk about today that is unbelievably interesting?
Speaker 2: I was thinking that we should talk about the cycle, which is for people who don't know the kind of lingo that we use to describe the conflict that couples get into that usually is some sort of recurring conflict that they get into again and again.
Speaker 1: Exactly.
Speaker 1: I love that, right?
Speaker 1: So when we say the cycle, the system, your shit show, right, you know, it's, we're just referring to the emotional bonding driven feedback loop that couples get into together that feels really bad for both of them.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And like Sue Johnson says in her book, the demon dialogues, the demon dialogues.
Speaker 1: Exactly.
Speaker 1: So yeah.
Speaker 1: So I think you're, you were saying, Karen, that we should talk about how do you know when you're in a cycle?
Speaker 2: How do you know when you're in a cycle and how to understand the cycle?
Speaker 1: Exactly.
Speaker 2: As something that's like, it's not their fault.
Speaker 2: It's not your fault.
Speaker 2: It's this whole separate entity that gets that gets going between the two of you.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Well, so look, here's the thing.
Speaker 1: What I like about the podcast is we can be a little bit more detailed and really accurate.
Speaker 1: But of course, I know we might lose people, like if we're very detailed and accurate.
Speaker 1: So I want to be careful.
Speaker 1: I'm balancing that so you can help me, Karen.
Speaker 1: Like I think about the cycle, the negative system between a couple as ever present.
Speaker 1: It's always present.
Speaker 1: So it's there.
Speaker 1: And so the analogy I have is it's like an on it's like a river.
Speaker 1: The river is always flowing.
Speaker 1: But sometimes the river is underground.
Speaker 2: I like that.
Speaker 1: And so you don't see it in your day to day life.
Speaker 1: You're not consciously aware of it.
Speaker 1: But it is there.
Speaker 1: It's just running underneath your house.
Speaker 1: And yes, from time to time, it raises up above the ground.
Speaker 1: And you notice like, oh, I'm up to my ankles or we're upward, like drowning in our cycle or negative system or fights, conflicts or disagreements.
Speaker 1: But the first thing is, it's actually always there.
Speaker 1: The emotional bonding dynamic between the two of you that you experience is painful when you're in a fight is actually ever present between the two of you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I like that frame.
Speaker 2: Good.
Speaker 1: Well, that's it.
Speaker 1: And let's just end the podcast.
Speaker 1: All right.
Speaker 2: See you next week.
Speaker 1: I just needed some validation.
Speaker 1: We're done.
Speaker 1: But but so here's the thing, right?
Speaker 1: It's easiest to study the cycle when it's above ground.
Speaker 1: Right, right.
Speaker 1: Like, so, you know, so let's say like, like you said, the Sue Johnson language of the demon dialogues, it's easier to study what is our system, what is our cycle when the actions that we both take when we're in our fight are really visible and describable, right?
Speaker 1: So when they're very explicit, even though like, I kind of like getting to study the under like the under the ground part is so subtle and like, oh my god, look what you're feeling and what you're doing right now, even though you didn't notice it.
Speaker 1: Like, I like that part.
Speaker 1: But but yeah, it's definitely easier to study and get to know your cycle when it's when it's, you know, it's undeniable.
Speaker 1: I have literally just slashed my partner's tires.
Speaker 1: They have already boarded a flight for New Mexico.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 1: You know, like, that's easy to see.
Speaker 2: Exactly.
Speaker 2: And in other words, another way of saying it is when they come in to a session, currently triggered from having just had an argument or, or still triggered from the argument yesterday or a few days ago, and they've been like holding it in waiting for therapy to talk it through.
Speaker 1: Exactly.
Speaker 1: That's the easiest time to study and get to know it.
Speaker 1: And then hopefully over time, the client, our listeners or viewers will appreciate Oh my god, we're in our cycle because we love each other even when we're not fighting.
Speaker 1: So but let's talk about then the the river has risen above the ground and we are standing in it whether it's up to our ankles or it's above our heads.
Speaker 1: Right?
Speaker 1: That look, we're definitely in our cycle.
Speaker 1: We're in a fight with each other, right?
Speaker 1: Or Barney rubble, like trouble.
Speaker 1: We're in a tiff.
Speaker 1: Whatever, like people's words are for their fights.
Speaker 2: Right?
Speaker 1: Okay, so how what do you think?
Speaker 1: What do you think Aaron?
Speaker 2: What is the what is some of the best ways to know firstly, that you're actually in a cycle that you're in a cycle, when you hear things like you always hear never that kind of language, first of all, the language that you're using, noticing what's going on in yourself.
Speaker 2: And that might be that can be a bit more challenging, like noticing when you yourself are triggered, or in fight or flight.
Speaker 2: You know, in that nervous system state where, essentially, you're not thinking clearly, and you're just kind of fighting for your life, where you're saying things that you're not thinking about and the kind of knee jerk reaction, and you're just, you know, responding to your partner and a knee jerk reaction.
Speaker 2: So that's a way to begin to realize, I mean, I think most couples know when they're in a conflict, they know and like, oh, crap, here it is, again, this place where we get so stuck.
Speaker 2: Right?
Speaker 2: It's feeling really uncomfortable.
Speaker 2: We're really upset.
Speaker 1: We're I think you gave them a little bit.
Speaker 1: I mean, no offense, a little too much credit.
Speaker 1: Let me just say this is this place we get stuck.
Speaker 1: I would cry with joy if a client ever said, Oh, look, we're in the place we get.
Speaker 1: This is the place where you are failing.
Speaker 2: Right?
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, they said this is the place we get stuck.
Speaker 1: Like, you know, I will cry my one tear of the week, right?
Speaker 2: And that's, but that's, I'm glad you said that right now and caught me and saying
Speaker 2: that because that's where we're trying to transition to that's, that's the whole point of what we're
Speaker 2: talking about today is how to go from that major perspective shift of my partner is acting like
Speaker 2: such a jerk, they're doing that thing again, that always hurts me, you know, and is totally
Speaker 2: unreasonable versus we both got stuck in this place where now we are in this cycle and
Speaker 2: understanding what the cycle actually is.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 1: That move for my consciousness, like, as I, you know, as I think of it, I kind of like, I am being hurt by you or even I am hurting you.
Speaker 1: They're both just in the vid there.
Speaker 1: Both of those perspectives are individual stories.
Speaker 1: And we actually need to make that move to we are both hurting and we are both hurting each other.
Speaker 1: That's the first information, right?
Speaker 1: But, but let's just say, like, you know, you were saying, you know, you say one of the first ways just to go back to the very first statement you said, you are being an asshole.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 1: So there's some really important things in that, right?
Speaker 1: One is the you, right?
Speaker 1: You are an asshole, right?
Speaker 1: Let's just break that down for a second.
Speaker 1: Your perspective, you would, let's say, if you could study it for a moment, whether you're saying your partner is saying that they're a negative story of the other person, right?
Speaker 1: They're talking about them.
Speaker 1: They are an asshole.
Speaker 1: Their tone and emotion in the voice was they're angry or pissed off.
Speaker 1: And they're actually in an action tendency of criticizing the other person.
Speaker 1: So that statement, when you really then break it down to its fundamental parts is, ah, this person is in reactivity and it's a negative judgment.
Speaker 1: The other they're frustrated and there's an action tendency.
Speaker 1: And for the history of humanity, right?
Speaker 1: Like anybody that tells someone else you're you are an asshole.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: You know, you know, they're they're going to get a negative judgment back from the other person.
Speaker 2: Exactly.
Speaker 2: And I just want to even slow down what you just said, which is you're in reactivity.
Speaker 2: I think that, again, because we're used to using this language, we don't even maybe realize that.
Speaker 2: I think a lot of people are not used to even thinking of it that way.
Speaker 2: I am in my reactivity versus there's some other way that I could be communicating.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: I am reactive because I got hurt and maybe I don't even realize I got hurt.
Speaker 2: I just reacted.
Speaker 2: What just happened?
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's great.
Speaker 1: Like even if we just said the reactivity, you're reacting to the world outside.
Speaker 1: So something came first.
Speaker 1: But what the person feels when we say you're in reactivity, you're you are an asshole.
Speaker 1: If you're saying to someone you are an asshole, that means from your perspective, you're responding to the outside world.
Speaker 1: You're saying it because the outside world did something to you.
Speaker 1: But actually, yes, you're reacting to the outside world.
Speaker 1: But you're also there was something that came before you're an asshole, which was you actually had some need that wasn't being met and you're hurting inside.
Speaker 1: When you say you are an asshole, you're in this secondary response to the world and moving away from what came first inside of you.
Speaker 1: And what came first inside of you is there was an unmet love need and your feelings are hurt.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's primary.
Speaker 1: Even if you didn't experience it as the primary thing, like the thing that came first, that is what came first.
Speaker 2: Exactly.
Speaker 2: And you know what I think would be helpful to kind of demonstrate this because I keep seeing it in my mind.
Speaker 2: Can you fix just diagram do like a simple diagram so that people understand what this cycle is?
Speaker 1: Like verbally described, like you do this.
Speaker 2: It lands for me like this.
Speaker 2: Then I do the thing like this.
Speaker 1: So the short of it, how do you know you're in the cycle if you can see one thing is present you.
Speaker 1: So there's four primary things.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 1: And explain the relationship to these four primary things.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 1: One is you're getting you yourself have hurt inside because there's some flavor of love you're not getting.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 1: And then when you're hurt inside, even if you're not consciously aware you're hurt inside because there's a flavor love you're not getting, you react slash protest.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 1: So just think of it as that's two different people inside of you.
Speaker 1: There's a hurt one when they're not loved.
Speaker 1: And then there is a reactor protester.
Speaker 2: And what are they protesting?
Speaker 1: Well, they're protesting not getting the flavor of love they want.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 1: From their partner.
Speaker 1: And there's lots of different ways to protest.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 1: There's blaming, criticizing, minimizing, advice, giving, shutting down, dissociating, placating, making jokes, problem solve.
Speaker 1: Look, the the the array of different ways we have to protest and some of those protests you may love about yourself.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 1: Like I love being funny, clearly.
Speaker 1: But a lot of times I'm being funny the way to protest not feeling heard or seen.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 1: OK.
Speaker 1: And I'm not feeling safe inside.
Speaker 1: Avoid it.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 1: OK.
Speaker 1: Listen, I don't want to overcomplicate it like deep down inside.
Speaker 1: So there's I'm hurting because there's a flavor of love I'm not getting.
Speaker 1: And then I'm reacting or protesting.
Speaker 1: And there's a whole array of reacting and protesting.
Speaker 1: But my reaction and protest hurts the other person because the way I react and protest now sent a message, regardless of what my intention was, when I reacted in protest, a message was received by your partner that now is a flavor of love they're not getting and they're hurting inside.
Speaker 1: And now they in turn, because they're a human being, too, despite what you think.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 1: They're an alien.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 1: They they're so different to me, but they're a human being.
Speaker 1: And so now they're not getting a flavor of love that is important for them and they're hurting.
Speaker 1: And so now, of course, they're going to react and protest.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 1: So they're the four things you're both hurting.
Speaker 1: There's two.
Speaker 1: And you're both reacting and protesting.
Speaker 1: That's two plus two.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: Yes.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 1: And so let's do the relationship between those four.
Speaker 1: So just picture an infinity loop in your mind.
Speaker 1: Very everybody knows what infinity loop looks like.
Speaker 1: And in the bottom left quadrant, you draw a line through the infinity loop right across the center of it.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 1: Going horizontally across the page.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 1: You are across the middle of the infinity loop.
Speaker 1: The bottom left quadrant now of your infinity loop is that's your little hurting one inside that's not getting a flavor of love and a hurt.
Speaker 1: So you jump up to the top left quadrant of the infinity loop.
Speaker 1: By God, I'll be reacting and protesting, not getting loved in the particular way you do.
Speaker 1: You do you.
Speaker 1: You do you all the time.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 1: All of us.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 1: So you do your little protest reactivity thing.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 1: And of course, that protest reactivity thing, because you're your your partner's person.
Speaker 1: They smell it.
Speaker 1: They smell danger.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 1: They can sniff it out a mile away.
Speaker 1: And they now know, like, I'm I'm now not getting a flavor love.
Speaker 1: I long for or I'm on my way to not getting it.
Speaker 1: So they're hurting or on their way to hurting.
Speaker 1: So now they that's their they're sorry, the bottom right quadrant of the infinity loop.
Speaker 1: Now they're hurting because they're not getting a flavor.
Speaker 1: And now they jump up to the top right quadrant of the infinity loop by doing their reaction or protest.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 1: Whether they're a name, call or blame or shut her down or criticize whatever they do, which now confirms for you, me.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 1: And my bottom left quadrant.
Speaker 1: I was right.
Speaker 1: I'm really not getting the love I needed.
Speaker 1: I'm hurting even more.
Speaker 1: So I have every reason, logical reason the world has given me such clear feedback.
Speaker 1: I need to protest and react even more.
Speaker 1: And now it's so you jump to your top left quadrant, which, of course, hurts your partner in their bottom right quadrant of the infinity loop.
Speaker 1: And we go on and on and on and on and on and on and on.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we're in a cycle.
Speaker 2: But and I think that was a really good description of of what it is.
Speaker 2: And sort of imagine it as like the things that are happening below the waterline is the vulnerability and above the waterline is the reactivity.
Speaker 2: So when you're in a cycle, you're only showing each other your reactivity.
Speaker 2: That's all that's that's all that the other person is seeing from you.
Speaker 2: And that's all that you're communicating to them, even though under the waterline, there's all that like, juicy, vulnerable, hurt little boy, little girl inside of you.
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1: Now.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love you calling it juicy and yummy, right?
Speaker 1: Like, you and I as therapists.
Speaker 1: But like, let's be clear.
Speaker 1: You know, like, if you really say to me the place inside me that I feel like I'm not enough and I'm ashamed and I'm failing as a human being is juicy and yummy, right?
Speaker 1: I'm like, you've lost your fucking mind.
Speaker 1: You've just confirmed for me therapists are crazy, right?
Speaker 1: And then you know, if you tell someone, oh, the part of you that feels abandoned and not prioritized is the yummy part of you, right?
Speaker 1: Like they're going to look at me and say figs, like seriously, like get a new profession.
Speaker 1: Because you're like, this is insane.
Speaker 1: It makes no sense.
Speaker 1: But But, but yeah, look, it is it is actually the yummy part because it's the most lovable part of each of you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because your partner would actually not that it's available in that moment.
Speaker 2: It's not safe for you to share it that way in that moment.
Speaker 2: But your partner, if they saw that would also agree with me or you that it was juicy and yummy.
Speaker 1: Well, yes, there's a lot of parts in that sometimes we do have to undo stories inside of both people, right?
Speaker 1: That the part of me that can feel abandoned, they think they're going to think that part of themselves is a weak part.
Speaker 1: And look, their partner may have lived in a world that you really should deal with that stuff.
Speaker 1: Individual therapy, like their partner might be in a worldview to that it might take a little work to go actually, no, wait a second, we actually don't want to get rid of this part.
Speaker 1: You want to love that part of them, right?
Speaker 1: They might need some help.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 1: And the same with, like, let's say you help someone get in touch with their not enoughness, and they tell their partner, right?
Speaker 1: And they've been living in the world where, like, oh, they're supposed to be really strong, they might go, Whoa, I don't know about seeing this part of you.
Speaker 1: Like it, there is real reasons, genuine reasons why it's not safe, not just in the relationship, but in our culture, to really feel your vulnerability and share it.
Speaker 1: So sometimes we undo the culture, the socialization inside the mad insanity of the world.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2: And it's and it's mostly it's mostly geared toward men and how men are supposed to show up.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, listen, I'm women, right?
Speaker 1: You're being too much feeling your feelings, crying, being affected, like letting yourself be affected and actually have emotion.
Speaker 1: Whoa, you got to dampen that down.
Speaker 1: You got to be more like a man in the workplace, like women have been getting really crazy messages, too, right?
Speaker 2: Oh, totally.
Speaker 2: But it's all filtered through that, right?
Speaker 2: Like, it's all it's like that toxic masculinity thing.
Speaker 1: We're all living, we're all living in this culture that's a little insane.
Speaker 2: But I just want to say, like, I really think that it's good that you said that, because I think it's really important to get that.
Speaker 2: Like what I was just saying was a place that you could eventually get to.
Speaker 2: And there's no expectation that like you can immediately have your partner really understand and empathize those really deep layers of what's going on inside of you, because there's all sorts of stuff in between there.
Speaker 1: Exactly.
Speaker 1: There's so much stuff.
Speaker 1: But but here, let's make sure there's so much details.
Speaker 1: I know it's so hard to stay focused.
Speaker 1: How do we know we're in the cycle?
Speaker 1: Here's what I say, the most important thing.
Speaker 1: If you have awareness of one of those four things, I'm not getting loved, I'm hurting, or I'm in reactivity, right?
Speaker 1: Or the other person is hurting, they're not feeling loved, or they're in reactivity, that might be easier for you to see first, right?
Speaker 1: Or the other person is acting badly, right?
Speaker 1: That's usually the easiest thing to see.
Speaker 1: But here's the thing.
Speaker 1: If you see one of them, and I want to ask you to trust me on this, like just put it to the test, trust me enough to put it to the test.
Speaker 1: If one of the four things are present, all four things are present.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Right?
Speaker 1: You if one of you is hurting, the other person is hurting.
Speaker 1: And they're reactive.
Speaker 1: And you're reactive.
Speaker 2: That's right.
Speaker 1: All four things are always present all at the same time.
Speaker 1: So that I would say that, yeah, so the number one way to know you're in a cycle, like just as like a like a little hack is always assume if you see your partner negatively, they see you negatively.
Speaker 1: And if you're seeing them negatively, you're hurting inside and they're hurting inside too.
Speaker 1: Exactly.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 1: What was it like, Karen, to hear me describe it like that?
Speaker 2: I love the way you describe it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, 100%.
Speaker 2: And I sort of it's funny that you use that analogy of the river, because I also have a nature analogy that I use, which is that the cycle is like a tornado, where in other words, it's like a weather system that shows up under certain conditions, it like shows up, it destroys everything in its path.
Speaker 2: And you're like, what the hell just happened.
Speaker 2: And that weather system cannot be created by one of you alone.
Speaker 2: It can only be created in the interaction in between the interaction of you and your partner.
Speaker 2: So just beginning to get that the cycle is actually a third entity.
Speaker 2: And that's why I like the tornado thing, because it acts like that.
Speaker 2: It's a third entity that gets built.
Speaker 2: And and and under this the conditions of this weather system that you and your partner are creating.
Speaker 2: And you can't do it without them.
Speaker 2: And you're both 50% of this cycle getting created.
Speaker 2: And it's, it's really painful for both of you, it does destroy everything in its path.
Speaker 2: And you both end up going, Oh, my God, how did we get here?
Speaker 2: 15 minutes ago, we were having like a really great dinner.
Speaker 2: And all of a sudden, we're like saying really awful things to each other.
Speaker 2: And we both feel terrible, screaming at each other on the side of the street.
Speaker 1: I love that.
Speaker 1: That's a great right that the problem is the tornado, not either of us, right.
Speaker 1: But so let's, again, technically, how do you identify that we are in the tornado, we're in our fight, and we're in our tornado, that's 50% of both of us.
Speaker 1: That's the first thing, right, that transition to just identifying, we are in our system, it's both of us.
Speaker 1: Because if one of us is hurting, the other is hurting.
Speaker 1: And if I'm hurting, I'm reactive, if you're hurting, you're reactive, definitely all four things are happening.
Speaker 1: It is both of us.
Speaker 1: And so the problem is that we have a tornado that's sweeping through our house and sweeping both of us up, right?
Speaker 1: This is awful for both of us, right?
Speaker 1: That is all of those words, they sound very simple, you understand English, if you're listening to this podcast, right?
Speaker 1: Even with my silly accent, right?
Speaker 2: Trademark accent.
Speaker 1: Trademark accent.
Speaker 2: Oh, hello, how are you?
Speaker 2: I got to like strengthen it, you know, eight new looking shapes.
Speaker 2: Your accent's pretty strong, you don't have to strengthen it.
Speaker 1: Really?
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Crazy.
Speaker 1: You haven't met a lot of Irish people.
Speaker 1: But okay, but here's the thing in that, that story just told your limbic system and your nervous system that there's no reason for us to be a threat to each other anymore.
Speaker 1: We're both actually suffering right now, because we love each other.
Speaker 1: And both of our reactivity actually makes sense, because it both looks like it looks like we're both withholding love from each other.
Speaker 1: And then remember our technical, right?
Speaker 1: Everybody calm the fuck down.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, we're creating this whirlwind.
Speaker 1: And if we can calm down, we'll stop it because we're both hurting because we both love each other so much.
Speaker 1: That's why we're reacting.
Speaker 2: Yes.
Speaker 2: And so can you say a little bit more about that?
Speaker 2: Because like you said earlier, I jumped to that place of like, hey, it's both of us in the cycle.
Speaker 2: And it's a good point that like, wait, that's a really big perspective shift to go from my partner is the one causing all these problems.
Speaker 2: And if they would just act differently, we'd be fine to it's both of us creating this cycle, which is happening outside of us as like a third entity.
Speaker 2: So but what you just said about we're doing it because we're not because we're not getting the love we need.
Speaker 2: And it's a protest.
Speaker 2: And we're only acting this way because of how much we love each other in there, I think is the magic of like, how to get people to see that.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 1: It's really good to know, like, technically, right?
Speaker 1: It's a different question, right?
Speaker 1: And I'm not like, right, like, we're just like, if we just go, like, how do you know you're in the cycle?
Speaker 1: Just if you're hurting, you're in the cycle.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: If your partner's hurting, you're in the cycle.
Speaker 1: If you think your partner's an asshole, or some variation, they're selfish, they're mean, they're over emotional.
Speaker 1: If you have any negative judgments, you're in the cycle.
Speaker 2: I love that.
Speaker 1: Right?
Speaker 1: If they have a negative judgment of you, they're you're in the cycle.
Speaker 1: Yeah, like, listen, all four things are present.
Speaker 1: So just like if we just want one takeaway, right, because there's so much right.
Speaker 1: And it's so subtle, right?
Speaker 1: The one major takeaway of this episode.
Speaker 1: That's it.
Speaker 1: Right?
Speaker 1: Just just test that like, here's it.
Speaker 1: Here's your you have an experiment for you to go now test when you have a negative judgment of the other person.
Speaker 1: Can you put the other three ingredients up?
Speaker 1: I have a negative judgment of them.
Speaker 1: What am I not getting?
Speaker 1: For fuck's sake, I don't feel hurt.
Speaker 1: I'm hurting that Jesus.
Speaker 1: Two of the four here.
Speaker 1: Well, what are they feeling when I'm disappointed in them?
Speaker 1: Because I'm not hearing them.
Speaker 1: Would you look how scared they are of me?
Speaker 1: Ah, shit.
Speaker 1: They're scared.
Speaker 1: Right?
Speaker 1: Well, what are they doing?
Speaker 1: Oh, they're tiptoeing around the house.
Speaker 1: They actually put on little slippers so that I can't hear them as they walk.
Speaker 1: Like, you know, towards the toilet at night.
Speaker 1: Ah, fuck it.
Speaker 1: They're avoiding me.
Speaker 1: Ah, shit.
Speaker 1: All four things are here.
Speaker 1: Damn you figs and Karen.
Speaker 1: This is a cycle.
Speaker 1: Just it.
Speaker 1: I would just like this episode.
Speaker 1: Like we don't even have to put a meaning on it.
Speaker 1: Now we know it's happening because you love the other.
Speaker 1: But just for now, just the simplicity of can you create and look, we'll put in the show notes and in the YouTube like an infinity loop.
Speaker 1: We'll actually give you this like document, right?
Speaker 1: You don't have to give us your email.
Speaker 1: All right.
Speaker 1: Well, let's give you the bloody document, right?
Speaker 1: That gives you the infinity loop with the four things, right?
Speaker 2: But I love that.
Speaker 2: I really love what you're saying.
Speaker 2: Like you're making it so simple.
Speaker 2: If you just notice one thing that is happening, either you're reactive or your partner's reactive, that's it.
Speaker 2: You know, you're in the cycle.
Speaker 2: And then if you want to.
Speaker 2: And with this map, we can help you fill in the other things that are happening.
Speaker 2: Oh, how am I being reactive then?
Speaker 1: What's going on?
Speaker 1: Exactly.
Speaker 1: And by the way, I'm going to say, look, obviously, that's what we do for a living.
Speaker 1: Like we help people do it.
Speaker 1: But look, you can do it yourself.
Speaker 1: Here's the key question.
Speaker 1: If you're reactive, the key question is to ask yourself, what is it in me that's actually happening right now?
Speaker 1: What am I not getting?
Speaker 1: And what does it feel like?
Speaker 1: Even if I can't access feeling it right now, what do I imagine it would feel like for some other human being who was playing that character in Hollywood's best movie of the year?
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 1: I mean, maybe in the 1980s when they made good movies or something, I don't know.
Speaker 1: Like, what would they be feeling if someone was feeling unheard and it was hard for them?
Speaker 1: What would their emotions be, even if I can't access it myself?
Speaker 2: This is like you're giving me flashbacks to when we first started doing supervision like three and a half years ago.
Speaker 2: And I would come in every week and be like, well, let me tell you what he did this week.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 2: And you'd immediately be like, OK, and so what did you do?
Speaker 2: What's going on for you?
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2: What did you do when he said that?
Speaker 2: And I was like, why is that the point?
Speaker 2: Why?
Speaker 1: I was like, hello, can we go back to talking about them, please?
Speaker 1: Exactly.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 1: But so this is where, look, let's just keep this really simple.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 1: Just just fill out the entire infinity loop.
Speaker 1: When you if you see the other person negatively, they see you negatively.
Speaker 1: They're hurting and you're hurting.
Speaker 1: Can you fill that details out?
Speaker 1: Can you just see it?
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 1: Because all roads to a better relationship.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 1: Obviously, there are people with other ideas that are fucking wrong, but, you know, from this attachment perspective, right, we're very committed to this attachment system perspective.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 1: But all roads to a better relationship have to pass through.
Speaker 1: You can see we are in a system together.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 1: Because this particular thing, this particular systemic view of what's happening gives you the possibility of getting to an all-needs-met outcome for both of you.
Speaker 1: I have no idea how relationships work without it being an all-needs-met outcome.
Speaker 2: Can you say what you mean by that?
Speaker 1: Well, like that you're going to let's say one person not being prioritized that you get to feel prioritized and the other person is feeling like I'm always a disappointment to you.
Speaker 1: They no longer feel like I'm a disappointment.
Speaker 1: But we have some experience where, oh, my God, I'm a priority and I'm not a disappointment anymore.
Speaker 1: Yay.
Speaker 1: That's an all-needs-met outcome.
Speaker 1: We want an all-needs-met outcome because that's the only way we can't just take one person and say, listen, you really are a tosser in your relationship.
Speaker 1: Get your fucking shit together.
Speaker 1: And the other person is like, yeah, yeah, well, he's dead.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 1: Like that is not going to lead to an all that like that person is not going to want a couple's counseling next week.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 1: So the first most important thing to an all-needs-met outcome is this first thing.
Speaker 1: Can you actually start to see that when you're hurting in negative view, the other person they're hurting and they have a negative view of you?
Speaker 1: All four things are always present.
Speaker 1: So let's just does it.
Speaker 1: Now, of course, there's more.
Speaker 1: This is the first step.
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, it's great.
Speaker 2: I love.
Speaker 1: Yeah, go be a scientist, go study your cycle.
Speaker 1: You'll start off by seeing the other person's an asshole.
Speaker 1: What are you not getting?
Speaker 1: How are you reacting?
Speaker 1: How does it hurt them?
Speaker 1: We'll give you the sheet so you can fill it out.
Speaker 1: Let's not worry about what it means.
Speaker 1: Well, I'll give you like a little whisper what it means.
Speaker 1: It means you fucking love each other.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And and at the risk of complicating it a little more, it just means that when your partner is doing something that really gets on your nerves, it's because they're hurting inside.
Speaker 1: Exactly.
Speaker 1: And the reason it gets on your nerves because you're hurting inside because they're so important to you.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 1: Exactly.
Speaker 1: But that's the next part.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 1: But that's not like I want to just really simple, like break it down.
Speaker 1: Just objectively, can you see the system and we won't put any meaning on the system?
Speaker 2: Fine.
Speaker 1: It's fine.
Speaker 2: We won't put any meaning on it.
Speaker 1: But by the way, this is really important with people.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 1: Because we don't want to try and like if someone is really hurting, feeling not prioritized.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Like trying to get them to see, oh, you know, when you're not being prioritized and you see them negatively, they're hurting, too.
Speaker 1: And like, like, and it just means that you love them so much.
Speaker 1: It's like, you know, go fuck yourself.
Speaker 1: Like if someone told me, oh, you're not being prioritized, you must really love them.
Speaker 1: I'm like, hey, listen.
Speaker 1: So we just want to like just cold objectivity.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Here's what's true.
Speaker 1: You're in a system with each other.
Speaker 1: Can you just put the pieces of the system down in your mind or on paper?
Speaker 1: When I don't feel a priority, I do give advice.
Speaker 1: I'm not going to say I'm critical, but I'm a I'm a good advice giver.
Speaker 1: They don't seem to like it.
Speaker 1: It seems to feel badly for them.
Speaker 1: I won't go so far as to say they're hurting, but they don't seem to like it.
Speaker 1: It doesn't.
Speaker 1: It puts them in a suboptimal place.
Speaker 1: And then they do seem to use a strategy of ignoring me.
Speaker 1: Ah, shit.
Speaker 1: All four things of the system are here.
Speaker 1: Then we'll work out we can work on what it means.
Speaker 1: I love it.
Speaker 1: Okay.
Speaker 1: Let's I think that's good.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 1: Let's just try and keep it one thing at a time.
Speaker 1: Simple.
Speaker 2: I think that's really a good idea.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: That's what I learned when I was when I was becoming a photographer.
Speaker 2: My one of the guys that teaching me always used to say KISS is an acronym.
Speaker 2: Keep it simple, stupid.
Speaker 1: Silly.
Speaker 1: I'm changing it to silly.
Speaker 2: All right.
Speaker 2: We won't be so derogatory.
Speaker 1: We're like we got to like Roald Dahl's all his books.
Speaker 1: The words have been changed.
Speaker 1: Let's not even get political.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 1: Keep it simple, silly.
Speaker 1: But yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Okay.
Speaker 1: Keep it simple.
Speaker 1: Well, look, thanks for listening.
Speaker 1: Try and study what is your cycle.
Speaker 1: Notice one thing of the four is present.
Speaker 1: All four present.
Speaker 1: We'll give you the sheet in the show notes for the episode so that you can fill it in yourself.
Speaker 1: And brilliant.
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening, watching.
Speaker 1: And we will be back.
Speaker 2: Yes.
Speaker 1: Okay.
Speaker 1: Thank you, everyone.
Speaker 1: Thanks, Karen.
Speaker 2: Bye.
Speaker 1: Bye.
