Figs: Welcome everyone to Come Here to Me with Figs –

Teale: And Teale. 

Figs: That was a very radio like voice. 

Teale: Thank you. That's actually me. 

Figs: By the way, we record these really early in the morning before the kids get up. So maybe that's good that we have more like an NPR, you know, podcast voice.

Teale: I call it your sexy voice.

Figs: First thing in the morning. 

Teale: Like when I’m talking about you in my head. I'm like, “Oh, I just wish he would just use his sexy voice.” 

Figs: That's my early in the morning voice. That's why you tried to make me an early morning person.

Teale: [laughing] Yeah. 

Figs: Right, I should have known. But here we're excited about this episode. We have a good clip to share with you from our third couples counseling session. So I want to talk about that a little bit. But, by the way, one of the things it's just funny, you know, I was just texting with Sarah, a friend of ours, also from Ireland. And I was just telling her the name of the podcast is “Come Here to Me”. 

Teale: Yes

Figs: And you know, one of the things that, “Oh, that's so great.” And, “It makes me feel like I'm getting–.” And she's very good, strong Irish accent much better than mine. So “Oh, that makes me feel like I'm getting a hug.” “Oh, and being asked to come and get a nice podcast hug.” Which one of our favorite podcaster’s “Blindboy” calls his podcast a hug.  

Teale: Yeah, that's true. 

Figs: Which you've listened to more “Blindboy” than me.

Teale: Oh, yeah. 

Figs: But Sarah just said to me, she goes, “God, I love that you keep your Irish ways Figs. I really appreciate that.” But here's what crossed my mind is, you know, when I you say that expression “come here to me” it is disarming to our clients, because it's not an expression you're used to hearing. Right?

Teale: Right.

[2:59]

Figs: And so that actually works really well. Right. But there are other times where my Irish ways gets me in trouble. 

Teale: Yeah.

Figs: Yeah, you know, like, obviously –

Teale: Oh, yeah. You're winking. 

Figs: The winking in Ireland. It's pretty natural thing when you say “I love you” that you do a wink. 

Teale: Do you feel like I've whipped the wink out of you?

Figs: I don't think so. I didn't even know you didn't like it.

Teale: I love it. I mean, I just feel like maybe I don't see wink as much. 

Figs: Maybe I don't wink as much. 

Teale: Maybe there’s not enough grannies around here. Cause you like to wink at the grannies. 

Figs: There’s not enough grannies. 

Teale: We need to find more grannies.

Figs: More grannies to wink at. 

Teale: Yeah. 

Figs: Exactly. That's a good idea. I might get arrested. But–

Teale: [laughing]

Figs: No, no. But here's, you know, I can tell you the story made me think about the Irish way, is that, look, we now live in Hawaii, right? But in America, in general, Hawaii being very different than mainland America. Sometimes people just think anything someone says with an Irish accent is funny.

Teale: [laughing]

[3:59]

Figs: Like, so I was thinking we actually got a rower delivered to our house a few weeks ago. And –

Teale: [laughing] Oh yeah. 

Figs: And like it wasn't gonna fit where we wanted it to fit. And so I was kind of panicking. We had these four guys that were bringing the rower. They were here because I had to go upstairs. Oh jeez. And anyways, I was starting to feel really pressured now that we have to pick a new place and nothing felt good.

Teale: And it’s the time of COVID, obviously.

Figs: Yeah, exactly. 

Teale: I mean, everyone's masked but it was like, “People are in our house.”  

Figs: And you were so good, right.  You're trying to help, like, suggesting all these different places. “Well, what about out here?” And of course, because I'm Mr. Panicky Pants, I'm like, “That won’t work!” Right? Like I was being a little dismissive right? And totally makes sense that hurt your feelings. But then at some point, when we pick the place, you're like, “Oh, why don't we have it facing out this window?” Right, which is such again such a you: beautiful, optimistic. “We'll make the most out of this. This is gonna be great!” 

Teale: There's a lovely window that I was thinking, “We'll look out at this mountain”.

Figs:  Exactly. Yeah, it was a really good suggestion. And I responded, I wasn't trying to be funny. I was just being my Irish self. And I said, “You can't see anything out of that window.” And the four guys, the four movers all broke out into, like, deep belly laughs. “Oh, oh little leprechaun said something hilarious.” Now, I wasn't trying to be funny. That was really I was like, “How can you see anything that little window?” And when the guys laughed, right? I'm reminding you of something –

Teale: [laughing] 

Figs: What was that like for you?

Teale: That really painful, it was frustrating. Okay, kind of dismissing me in front of other men. 

Figs: Yeah, I know! But that was so terrible. I wasn't trying to be funny or dismiss. I would just like, “God, I don't think you can see that window.” But said with an Irish accent. Sometimes people think you're trying to be funny. You know the way you think my dad is – you always think my dad is joking. 

Teale: Every single word he says.  

[06:13] 

Figs: Yeah, my dad might be– 

Teale: He’ll be talking about death. And I’ll just be like, “ Good one, Peter!”

Figs: Exactly. My dad says, “You know, I'm finding getting old really hard, and I'm really lonely.” And you're like, “Ha ha ha! You’re hilarious!”

Teale: [laughing] It's not his accent. It’s –  he smiles while he is talking. 

Figs: Exactly. Well, that's part of the problem. Irish people, even when they're talking about being deathly grieving, they're smiling.

Teale: Leprechauns. 

Figs: They are little leprechauns. So anyway, I just was thinking about how, you know, on the one hand, some of these little colloquial Irish expressions are disarming. And on the other hand, sometimes it gets me in trouble. Like “your woman,” the expression “your woman”. Like when you don't know someone's name, you call them your man or your woman. And of course, that can be misinterpreted. Sometimes, “What do you mean, you're woman?” But look, let's talk a little bit about the therapy session, you want to share a little bit, you know, to help like, cue up the listeners– 

[07:11]

Teale: Yeah, sure.

Figs: Why we shared this particular clip?

Teale: I mean, I think it was there's a similar quality to like, I kind of just felt like I was in it with you. You started to talk and to share. And, basically, I kind of said, “Well, come on share.” And you were like, “WTF, like I am sharing.”

Figs: Right.

Teale:  You felt criticized by myself and the therapist. And when I saw what happened – 

Figs: That's where the clip kind of starts. We cut out the part where I thought I was talking about my own internal experience. And then we started at the moment where you and then the therapist, and you'll see it, you both kind of go, “Are we ready to stop being in your head Figs?”  Kind of in like a nice –

[07:55]

Teale: In like a nice way. But it totally makes sense that it landed that way. And so what you'll see is that impact. 

Figs: Exactly. And I know, here's why I think this clip is so important just to think about this while you're listening to or if you're watching the video, even in emotionally focused couples therapy, I would be referred to more as the emotional withdrawer, right? The one that it's harder to really feel like I have words or be able to describe my internal experience. So they're the words I'm saying, but really, I'm trying to find what I'm really feeling inside, and try to describe it. And so I'd make many attempts to try and describe the entire experience. 

Teale: Mmhmm

Figs: And I understand how to someone that it's easier to really get in touch with and sit with and then describe the finer details of their internal world that it could be really frustrating. It can seem like I'm saying the same thing over and over again. And so to me, it's a really good example of what it's like to be the emotion withdrawer when I actually am trying to explain my internal experience, but now I'm stuck in between this, “Am I doing it wrong?”  “It looks like you're disappointed in me?” “It seems like you and the therapist have this picture of I'm supposed to be doing it differently.” But this is as good as I can do it. 

Teale: Mhm.

Figs: And so then, you know, what I'm feeling internally just gets even more complicated. And so you'll see me kind of be stuck in between these two different things. One, I'm frustrated and then two, I have this almost like just this deep sadness that I'm back in this place of like, “God, me being me seems like it's just not right.”  And then the other thing I just want you to know is what's important about this clip is you and the therapist ended up being very, very empathic to me. And what I love is I feel like you both especially you, most importantly you, that you actually did see that I was working really hard on my internal feelings. And it's interesting when I watch this clip back myself, I was still really disappointed in myself but I wasn't able to describe my sadness better. Like I still felt like, “God I'm so lame.” Like you know, if I was you describing the sadness, I would have like Celine Dion “All By Myself” playing. Tears, balling. You know, just streaming. Right? And I'm like, you know, like, “I'm just barely touching. I'm sad inside.” And so I felt kind of disappointed in myself again, that I'm not that good at being vulnerable. But I just saw this reflection from you throughout the clip and the video in your voice you really could see I was in pain and you're really empathizing with me so that felt really healing right? And so that's the other thing, you know, and that's towards the end of the clip you'll see me actually let that in that you and the therapist – I really felt that you really got that I was hurting and you are very validating and this feels like a huge transition for me. I mentioned that I could actually let some of that validation in the part of me that felt like I'm not enough and I could collapse or get frustrated. I didn't have to, in the end get frustrated, and I didn't have to collapse. I could actually feel, “Oh, you really get me and you actually love and care about me.” And I felt really good to let that in, you know, that maybe I wasn't like, not enough double negative, right. But you know what I mean? Anyway, so that's, I think this is really important for any supposedly emotionally withdrawn partners, or if you have an emotionally withdrawn partner, you know, hopefully this will help you better understand yourself or your partner. When maybe it's not as easy for them, or they don't show vulnerability in the kind of cinematic way of tears streaming down their face and snot flying out of their nose. Catching their breath. Like our children do. Anyway, that's a lot of words for me, but what's that like to hear me share? Why are you so –

Teale: I'm so happy that this landed in such a good place for you. And I just really trusted the process. It was like impossible for me to not really feel brought into your experience. And to really understand, you know, in the beginning of the session, we talked about kind of how I can be critical or how you can kind of feel missed at times. And then what I experienced is like, “Oh, my gosh, it's happening right now.”

[12:42]

Figs: Right. 

Teale: That really helped me to put that together. 

Figs: That’s one of our greatest interventions as therapists, right? Is to help people see and it's happening. 

Teale: Right, right, right. It's like I do this for other people, but I actually had a moment of seeing it for Figs. And it was really it's like, I'm kind of ashamed of this, but it's really rare that I can actually listen and be not like, “What about this?” Or, “Why do you criticize me like this?” Like, in my story, I'm defending myself. “I'm criticizing back all the freakin time.” This was a new experience for me. I'm not quite sure why I mean, I think that the therapist was there and I mean, obviously I want to give you credit because – 

Figs: And you were scared I was going to give up. 

Teale: I thought he was gonna walk out of therapy that day, but so I was trying to be really good but I really felt it. I can't even quite describe why this felt so different. Why it felt not so defensive. I saw a flash underneath the anger in your eyes. Usually in a conflict outside of a session like this I see this anger flash through Figs. And I described to him after the session, it was like you are a cat sitting in the grass, flicking your tail, pissed off, like about to pounce on something. That's what I saw from you. 

Figs: [agreeing] That's what it looks like on the surface. 

[14:03]

Teale: That’s what it looked like on the surface. But there was something that just I think I just followed my intuition and I also think that you showed me flashes of sadness or I could see I could see your eyes that,  “Oh my gosh, it's not just not just – “

Figs: Not just – 

Teale: “Not just this cat in the grass.” There was just a moment and it really brought me in and then you showed it just worked. It was like just being with your process or like getting you look at how it sort of ended. Look how it feels right now. 

Figs: Yeah, really great. Now it's really a transition to feeling loved by you and understood. Let's play, we'll play the tape. You'll get the, you know, watch or hear us depending how you're consuming this podcast, which is a good point, right? If you're watching this video of it, you can listen to the podcast and also of course if you're listening to the podcast, you can actually see us in session the videos will be in the show notes on YouTube and also on our website but with no further ado, let's just we'll play the clip and then we'll talk a bit about it again in the end. Yeah, here we go.

[15:07 Session begins]

Figs: Well, absolutely yeah, no, I feel a lot of shame. Like I personally –  and it's yeah, it's at the core of – it's at the root the core of everything for me like that. That's where I end up. That I feel really bad about myself and it's, you know, further evidence of my, you know – You know, being separate, different than everybody else, something is wrong with me. 

Therapist: Yeah, you're ready to go to Alaska. And I thought Teale was saying when you said that Teale does the repair. There's a way that Teale comes and fishes you out of your shame. I wonder if that's accurate?

Figs: Yeah, I mean, while I think it – It’s a combination of things. Yes, she does. You do. All right, absolutely. And look luckily, you know, by 49 years of age, I kind of have enough data to know it's not actually great to stay there for a long extended period of time. So I, you know, I'm able to reach eventually for the hour, you know, the road or whatever Teale offers. I know that that's like a temporary place right, but – 

Therapist: It does paralyze you for a moment though. 

Figs: Yeah, absolutely. You know, and this, the way I always think of like, “Oh, look, I time travel.” Right then my I end up back in – I just end up back as that kid – the – from the broken family and not talk about it. You have to survive and – 

Therapist: Right. 

[17:00]

Figs: I mean, yeah, I totally get paralyzed in it.  Now, I, here is the only thing I would say the good news is, and it's a matter of just put this down to just being a guy. Like I don't I'm not very good at staying somewhere. As much as I go there, and I can get stuck in a fight for a long time. Like, I'm not – I'm a moody person versus days or weeks. Like I'm a, you know, I've got moodyout. I've got moody,  I’ve got moody hours, not days. 

Teale: Yeah! What you repair really, like, I just love that about you.

Figs: I get hungry. 

Teale: For food or? –  like in the dungeon and you're like “Please let me out!”

Figs: Yeah. It really is an hours thing. Like you know, you know, it's minutes or hours.

Teale: It’s minutes, you're so good at coming out.

Therapist:  Even when you don't fish him out? 

Teale: No, no Figs does not come out unless he's fished out. 

Therapist: Oh, okay.

Teale: But I'm not saying– you know what you do? You're right, you do sometimes initiate repair one out of 90 times. And that's really important to me. But no, what I'm saying is that, “ Oh my God, it would be so devastating for me if I tried to fish you out, and you wouldn't come up.” 

Figs: Right.

Teale:  You're so like, he just changes. He just, he needs that help right? In that moment. And, finally, me that's not in – You know, this is really helping, because just even talking about shame. I think it just is really helpful for me. I realized, shit I'm so activating that part of Figs in that self righteous place. 

Therapist: Right. But Teale I think the other side of it is that when your well is dry, you said in the last session, you said, “When I'm in that place, I just want to be young.”  “Can I just be in my exhausted place? Do I have to come and fish you out?” Or you know, or something? I don't know what's going on like that.

Figs: You know, but like, just like my shame and what keeps me there is not just what's happening in between Teale and I. Your panic if I go away, you're like, you know, hang out in the costume. That's not like, you know, again, I know I'm stepping across the tennis net. And like the court or whatever, but you can't tolerate – Like, you know what I mean? Your organism cannot tolerate disconnection like, you exhausted or not, you have to make it better. Like, you know, you're like,

Teale: That’s true. 

Therapist: Well, so that would be interesting Teale if you actually mindfully experiment with not always repairing so quickly. 

Teale: Believe it or not, guys, I've done some work around this. 

Therapist: Okay. 

Teale: Yeah, well, you know, just actually wood in hakomi around just that panic and, you know, really? Karen, we're carrying. Yeah, yeah. So she, she was like, she really did a piece of work with me. And just like, you know, wonder if we can imagine staying for another couple minutes. I was like, you know, it's like, really in the child's state of like, “I'm alone in a room and the doors closed.” And you and I'm like, you know, I've tried to experiment with it. It's gonna be a journey. 

Therapist: For sure. 

Teale: But I'm also just like a real– So I don't know, I don't know how to do that. I don't know. I guess it hasn't healed. And I'm just like, I also look at how like I come in to kind of save myself from that discomfort is I'm like, “No, hell no. My life is about productivity. Let's get back into connection as soon as possible. Like, I really don't want to waste any time. I don't want to waste an afternoon. I don't want to waste even 20 minutes” – 

Therapist:  Feeling bad. 

[21:07]

Teale: Feeling bad. feeling disconnected, having Figs shut down. So I think there's a part that's like, I do a sacrifice of myself. 

Therapist: Just from a couples perspective, I just wonder if it's also enabling Figs a little bit to not fish his own way out sometimes. That would be like maybe a growth edge for Figs. I don't know, is that true Figs?

Figs: This is the interesting thing is like, you know, like, you know, you only notice –  Like, it's hard. So this is my story is I fish myself out all the time. Like I'm okay. 

Therapist: Okay

[21:38]

Figs: I fish myself out all the time. But the only thing that can be remembered– It's hard. It's hard. There isn't enough of a hook in the moment for Teale to remember. “Oh, Figs fished himself out.” But what's remembered is all the times Teale – 

Therapist: Oh I have to get him.

Figs: Yeah, but that doesn't mean the other ones don't exist. Because Teale – 

Therapist: For sure, for sure.  

Figs: Because listen, like I feel ashamed all the time. Look, I have two keys on my key ring. And I picked the wrong one it touches, “Yeah, well, someone like as shit as me. Of course, you're going to get it wrong.” 

Therapist: Right? 

Figs: You know, that's a crazy that silly example. But to be honest, it's not far from the truth. Right. Now.

Teale: Oh.

Figs: You know, so but the other thing I was gonna say is like so you know, like all of these things what Teale does where she is like, it's true from all angles, right? That she's feeling depleted and scared. She has to sacrifice herself.  To go reach – Does not necessarily mean – Sometimes it lands that way. And it does bring me out, right? Because the antidote to my own self absorption is seeing her pain. Brilliant. But then other times, that's not how it lands. 

Teale: Right. 

Figs: How it lands is I have been tracked. And she's telling me like you, “There's only one thing you could do and that is engage with me and right now in this way.”

Teale: Right

Figs:  It's literally the, you know, um, you don't physically hold me, right. But it's literally like the emotional equivalent of – 

Teale: Do you feel trapped? Because you don't know how to do it? Or because you don't want to do it? 

Figs: Because I Well, that's a good question to me. I mean, think about that.

[23:36]

Figs: I just want a bit more space. 

Therapist: Yeah.

Figs: It's not that I don't want to do it. I just need a little more space. Like, you know, recently I've been using this image myself a lot about – Look, I'm not a fisherman, if I'm fishing, I don't just reel the fish in all the way straight, right like on the journey alive. 

Therapist: Totally.

Figs: Now. I just sometimes I feel, because you understandably are panicking because I've gone away.

Teale: Mmhm

Figs: Teale is gonna just reel the line in straight and it's like, “Oh my God.”

Teale: Yeah. 

Figs: We literally have seen like –  We have things all the time where like, you know, you're remember we gave that example of the broken glass the bottle.

Therapist: Right.

Figs: But there aren't situations where I'm the one that cleans that up. Teale wins by – Cecause she's, you know, and this is a compliment them they're like and scary. Like there's a level of commitment that you have to your way. It’s kind of like – She does no, “Well, I hear you, I'll take it, I'll take a step back for a few minutes.” Like, it's just like gonna be, “Oh my God, like, I'm gonna have to just give her the brush and walk away.” Because I can see, she there will be no wavering. 

Therapist: So you, you actually have some feelings about that dynamic in her. Right?

Figs: I get scared, right? Because I feel again, it's um, it's again, it's like you're but –

Teale: Wait wait. But listen, there's many things happening in this moment. And I am starting to get a little overwhelmed and defensive. But I don't want to – I, I want to like be with what you. 

Therapist: Slow it down. 

Teale: It’s really important. And I've actually I know, I feel like you've mentioned invasion, or like, you know, you've talked about this was a long time ago, and we haven't, I haven't heard about it. So I'm really interested in the part of you that wants a little bit more space, you know, now you're going into, like, kind of my controlling ways in a situation. So I just feel like would you pick one. And I would love to understand.

[25:59]

Figs: Well, I know this is the problem, right? Of being therapists. these things are weaved together. 

Teale: But what I’m saying is it’s getting too overwhelming. 

Figs: So here's what I would like. I can, you know, collapse when I feel someone's asking something of me. Like, it's not as simple as, “I'm just in shame.” I also then will– I will collapse into just doing what is asked of me because I don't see any other way to do it. Right. So – 

Teale: That  just feels so bad to me like, I feel so sorry about it. It definitely helps me to get that. If you feel kind of, you know, here we are talking about being some positive way. And I really think, “Oh my gosh, I'm hot shit for always repairing”. And you are feeling, you know, really strong armed into repairing before you're ready. 

Figs: But when you say – Look, like you said, it's complicated. Sometimes it's not any one thing all the time. 

Teale. Mmhm. Yeah. 

Figs: There are some there are particular situations we get into where and I don't know why that rhymes this way with me that I have to kind of go into some kind of collapse to be compliant. Because it's not – Because I don't see any wavering on your side. 

Therapist: What would you like to say in those moments? Like, think of an example? Like, can we just slow down a little bit? Was that what you'd like to say? 

Figs: Yeah. 

Therapist: You don't think you have that choice? Or? Well, I feel like I do. Try to try and say those things but as you probably can tell, like, I'm pretty dramatic, right? So the way I say it doesn't necessarily – I think what happens is the way I say it lands more like, “I'm scared of you, I need more space than –” Like, you know, it lands or like I'm making the statement about Teale, you know, and it lands that I'm actually,  “No, look, I'm actually really scared. I do want to connect with you. I just need – I just – Can, can you just give me – let them line out a little bit.” Because I'm really triggered like that there's no space for me, I can't be me. 

Therapist: Mmhm

Figs: But then the way I look at you in those moments. If I was you, it would make me even more panicked, because now I'm looking at you like you're, you know, like a dangerous person. 

Teale: Mmhmm [agreeing]

Figs: And I'm very dramatic. I'm like, you know, my hands are up. I'm like– 

Teale: Mmhmm. Yeah, it's interesting, it really helps me to hear you say it. Because it's – There's not – I don't, I don't think I hear it. Like, I feel like we've talked about this, like, years ago, or moments years ago, and maybe you've just sort of, you know, surrender into my way. And that makes sense that it's not really working that I just repair when I'm – When I want and that you kind of have to go along with it. Because I don't think I see your hands up. I don't see you like asking me for any type of letting the line out. And I hear you that some that, a lot of times it does work. So I'm not gonna like just totally give up. But I think it just helps me to get a sense of like, and I guess I'm just curious more about what happens, like you're saying your hands are up, like I'm like almost like a dangerous person. And then somehow this feeds into the maid that's asking you to clean up the glass in particular orbit.

Figs: So this is where like, these are all totally to me, these are two completely different situations. 

Teale: Oh, I thought you linked them. 

Figs: Well, sorry, the glass as an example. You know, when I'm holding the brush and you're holding the brush, you will end up holding the brush. 

Teale: Right.

Figs: But that's very different. That's not necessarily – Look and that's not necessarily bad, right, on one level. But what I see in you is you are not going to waiver so I have to be the one that let's go. 

Teale: Yeah, I think just as a process question right now is like I want to give you space because my sense is like, “This all makes sense.” It's like cognitive, but I just feel – 

Therapist: Yeah I just want to get – 

Teale: I just wonder about making space for – 

Therapist: I noticed that that's the pattern is that you are both really intelligent and active therapists minds, and there is a sense of wrapping your conceptual arms around the thing before the process has happened. I think that's what you're pointing to maybe.

Teale: Yeah. 

Therapist: What do you what are you feeling, Teale, about hearing Figs talk about his different experiences with you?

Teale: Really, like just fascinated, really curious. Just like I really care. Like it totally makes sense. Like, I mean, like, I'm like, “Oh my god.” It's like a dream that you remember. Suddenly, like a month later. “Oh yeah. This is like this important piece.” And I feel like it's gotten crowded out of my consciousness, obviously, and not yours. And so I think I just want to know more about what that's like, just sounds really hard.

Figs: Yeah, well, thank you. I mean, you know, which, again, to me, it's like, it's just one piece of the multitude of pieces that can happen. Between us, right. It happens inside of me when we interact. It's nice. It just happened for whatever reason that happened to come up right now. But it's not something I'm really worried about or concerned about, or – 

Teale: Yeah. I'm just, I'm hungry for like, you know, giving you space around your internal process, because I feel like I can, I can take it and I can drop in there. And that, you know, we have, you know, these bright minds, working on that conceptual level and just, you know. You don't have to go like headfirst into it. I just, I just think it would – 

Figs: Tell me what you think that would look like, you know, when you say like, what do you think? So I guess this is what there's a gap between where I think I'm doing is trying to under like, access my own internal process and be able to describe that. And – 

Therapist: Do you have an example between the two of you that would illustrate this?

Figs: Well, let me just think for a second. I mean, look at the broken bottle and kitchen would be –

Therapist: Okay.

[32:53]

Figs: Right. But, but let me just actually just say, what's happening for me right now is – 

Therapist: Yeah

Figs: Look, I feel a little bit that way. Here's the message I feel like I'm hearing is: My way of processing is not right.

[33:13]

Therapist: Mmhmm [agreeing]

Figs: So what I hear, like, you know, I'm not in some – I'm really, really hurt with either view. But I know this thing that. Like, it's just the as like, my way of thinking about things describing things, all the nuances of all these things, like it's too heavy, you're not in feelings. It's like,  “Stop Figs”. It’s slowing down. And so and so on. Now, I'm just like, okay, well shit.  Like, what? Can you tell me what it is? What am I supposed to be?  Because, you like, I feel like I, I've gotten the message that it's not right.

Teale: I totally get it. I’m sorry. 

Therapist: I get that. No, but I did sort of summarize a conceptual way that I do want to say things, I experienced you both ways, I experienced you as a rapid processor. In other words, you're speaking rapidly, conceptually, but you're also in really close contact with your emotional body while you're speaking. So it's almost like I experienced your words as being validated by your emotional self. 

Figs: Right.

Therapist: Does that make sense? 

Figs: Yeah, I mean, thank you. I appreciate that because no, that's not–  That's what I feel like I'm doing. But – 

Teale: I think I was just pursuing you. Uou know, so it totally makes sense that you feel like that. I think, I think, you know, what's happening over here for me is I'm hearing you, and I'm working hard inside to not, you know, get defensive. Like, even though I'm like, “What am I getting defensive about? Like, this is Figs.” It's still, there's still a part that feels a little embarrassed. I think that like, “Oh my gosh, I'm this person that, you know, reels in the fish and doesn't sort of wait for it.” So, but I'm not collapsing in that. But I'm, I think what's happening is I'm just trying to be so good right now. I'm trying to be good. “Oh, that totally makes sense. So let me make  space for you.” And, um, and as I'm doing that, I'm kind of missing what you're saying. And, you know, I'm like, I have this deep exp–, you know, like, “Oh, Figs can really like what looks on the outside like a very vulnerable place," as though you're not doing right now. And what you're telling me is, “Look, I'm doing it right now.” And that you keep saying, “Come on. Let's do this.” I'm just feeling embarrassed. And I'm trying to be good. And I'm trying to invite you into place because I am – I'm really excited. I'm also really excited to hear you talk about your experience.

[35:54]

Therapist: Just for my benefit. Figs, can you tell her what you heard? I know and maybe she knows you got it. 

Figs: Yeah, just good. You are actually excited to hear me talk about this deep experience of mine, you know, where I collapse. And I feel like that's what's happening. But also, you're getting triggered and activated a bit, but you want to be good, and not let  – You want to be good. So you're kind of then also feeling a little bad about yourself that you're not able to just be present and listen, me. I'm trying, is there–

Teale:  That's perfect. Yeah, cause, you know, speaking of shame, maybe I'm having a shame response and that, you know, that it's not good for you. 

Figs: Yeah. 

Therapist: Can I self disclose a moment to that what happens for me is I get really excited, because there's so many things happening. It's like, you guys are one of the most sort of dynamic and sort of fireworks that are happening in my brain about all the different things that are interacting with you. And it's so exciting because you're so articulate about it. And there's so many different patterns I see. And I'm like, looking into my feelings and saying, which I want to track and I say something, it's just, it's moving too fast and away from my emotional body to like, really, keep up. Yeah, just say that. 

Figs: No, thank you. And that's what I was having. I appreciate that, because that's what I was what I was thinking, you know, I'm listening but what I was the meaning  – I was guess I was coming to inside myself is like, “Oh, my God.” It's so hard to really talk about one thing, because one thing triggers the second thing, which triggers the third thing, which deepens our saying, and it's kind of, like, you know, as much as this is our time, we're here in couples counseling. You know, like, if anything, sometimes it can feel like it's even harder to talk about something. Like it's even harder. Like I'm just really  – I'm feel that I'm  – I feel almost like a weight right now of like,  – we can talk about, hey, like, I can say, like, “Look, I want to talk about how beautiful the day was.” But as I'm talking about it, like it triggers, “But there's been more beautiful days than this. I didn't pause to hear you.” And now we're just on to something completely different. And like, it's just like, it just feels a little exhausting that  – Like just the reality of the interaction and all the things that are happening. I can't do one, we just can't do one thing. We can't get one thing done. And it's not because anybody's bad. There's just because there's 10 things happening. But it's a little, it's a little depressing. In the sense that, look, I would have thought– for whatever reason, for whatever reason, not anybody's fault — I feel like there's less time to talk about stuff here, not more time. Like, you know, in couples counseling. 

Therapist: Yeah. 

Figs: Because everything is activating. Everything is triggering, right? Everything. I literally feel like can not say something without triggering Teale. And, you know, I just like, you know, it's like, it's really, I'm really frustrated. And I'm not necessarily with Teale but I'm just I'm feeling that overwhelm right now. Just like, “What the fuck?”

[39:46]

Therapist: Is this like a just like a microcosm of life but sped up in the one hour? Kind of? 

Figs: Yeah, it's just a little heavy. It feels very heavy in the season that  – You know, like, I think I'm communicating one thing but it lands as something else and and now we're off in a completely different direction. Now, all of this started with I just realized this is the way it is. And it's just that's make sense. But it also is –  I feel pretty defeated about it. I mean, yeah, that sucks. You're right. I can feel that way in life. At times, right. And – 

Therapist: I don't experience either of you is getting triggered to a point where you're not communicating. I feel like you're communicating. I think there's just so many different reactions that are they're not out of control reactions are –  they're just data points of emotion that take us off a thread. So if we're trying to simplify, maybe that's a way to sort of slow it down is to simplify a cycle to start with and then find another cycle. 

Figs: [agreeing] Exactly what this is like. So here's the way I understood what happened. I'm talking  – KLike I don't even know how it got on this. I honestly have no idea that might be part of the problem. I somehow got in touch with like this part of me where I can feel like I'm collapsing versus just surrendering because I see the other person has got stronger will than I do in this moment. Like they are going to take the brush. 

Therapist: But like the two of us versus you.

Figs: Yeah, like, so I'm going to fuck it. Okay, I'll be the one that gives up. Like, I'll be the one that and some of that's good, pretty flexible, but some of it is, is not so good, right like that it feels like I'm this is what I have to do to survive. But then in the process of talking about this place where I can collapse. Like I would love to explore that. But there isn't really that gets transitioned into a cycle between Teale and I, like, I think I'm describing myself and describing, “I have this issue because of my wounding, my vulnerability.” 

Therapist: Right. 

Figs:  I survived in the world. But no more. No, by the time I've said, 20 words I'm triggered Teale. And so now we're on again  – I understand this is the way it is, this isn't there's something wrong with you. This is, like I said, like I was all day long. This is the way it is. And it's still friggin frustrating as hell. That I can't talk about one thing without it  turning into our cycle is really frustrating. 

Therapist: Would you like me to slow it down?

Figs: Well, but here's the thing. Well, yes, but, let's be clear what I  – The thing that I'm saying is frustrating that I can complete. I actually agree that I can't  – It's not right to complete it. Because once we're in our cycle we have to attend, we should attend to the cycle.  Like this you know, because now that's the thing that's happening in the room. But, but I just but at least part of the cycle is  – It is really frustrating that, like, “Oh, I just realized this thing.” I thought I'd describe it. And I'm in the process that triggered you. And it's really frustrating. But now we are in our cycles. So if you're going to slow it down. Yeah, I would still say you should slow down the cycle. Not let's go back to what Figs is saying.

Therapist: Well, I don't know. Because – 

Figs: I'm happy to-

Therapist: That's a question because sometimes I think the communication slowing it down by having people really reflect back what they heard. It sometimes feels tedious, but it actually does bring the emotions along. 

Figs: Yeah. No, I think it's great. And yeah, look, I'm happy to do it. Either way. I'm, yeah, I find myself  – I just find myself being like, I feel this real big heaviness in my, you know, my, my solar plexus. I'm just that like, just on that cusp, like there's this kind of like, you know, that I could collapse into it, like a two ways I could collapse into it just a defeated collapse into it. Or, you know, as you see, when I talk, I can be frustrated. Between those two reactions. It just feels so complicated. Like, I'm just so  – I feel so powerless and overwhelmed that, like, I can't live, nothing can be simple. Everything is so complicated. 

[44:37]

Therapist: I'm curious what you guys think. But I don't think it's so wrong for a therapy session, a couple session, to spend an entire session hearing and delving into one person's experience, and really getting it deeply and the work of the cycle doesn't have to be that rapid.

Teale: Can I just interrupt?  I'm wanting to be quiet because I feel like this is the thing that's happening there that you were describing is that –  Anyway, just feeling kind of like controlled or invaded. Not that's what's happening right now doesn't feel like you're saying, “Hey, I noticed this is happening and I don't like it.” And it's so it's really helpful for me. And so I'm wanting to be quiet because I don't want to do that thing where I push you and pressure you but I'm just I hear you. And you know, of course I can feel bad about myself but I'm not really hanging out there. I just hear you and I'm not feeling like,  “Oh my god. Everything triggers me.”I mean, I am feeling that a little bit which is you know, a little bit what came up in our first and second sessions and feeling bad about myself and to hear that that's you know, what's happening right now we just wanted to talk and to kind of finish a thought and it got kind of jumped on and you know, you're now you're kind of like raging against the machine. You guys are talking about the process of the therapy and so that's all.  It makes sense.

Figs: Thank you. 

Therapist: Figs, did you feel understood by Teale?

Figs: Yeah, I mean, yeah, I think  –.  Yeah, I feel like you did, that I'm conflicted with it. I feel bad that I'm not able to say things in a way that doesn't trigger you. Like, you know, I know that's like I'm so little, you know, I have a lot of hyperbole and over animated, but it makes sense I'd be triggering. And, you know, I'm bummed in this context, I feel like you're more triggerable than in our everyday life. I mean, I actually think we're flipped. I'm more of the one like Teale says, “Don't get those eggs, because they're in a plastic container.” I'm more like, even though it's totally understandable statement wasn't a criticism, I'm more likely to be, “Oh, okay, sorry.” Like, I'm more likely to be the one that's getting triggered and in habitual, reactive, non helpful – 

Therapist: But not right now. 

Figs: But in the sessions, my story is like, well, I literally can't say anything without Teale hitting like, “You know, I know, I feel bad about myself.” Or I feel you know, so whatever it is. The witness, or I don't know, like, I'm so I'm just finding the –  Yeah, I'm just feeling a little exhausted, with – I'm gonna trigger Teale all the time in session. You know, I know how to, like,  – But in a way that it will be so much that she’s gonna have to  – get you're gonna have to react. Again, outside this session, which we’re in much longer, I'm actually worse. I'm the one that is being reactive and triggered more often. So it's not  –  I'm not criticizing, 

[48:21]

Teale: I guess, like, I hear you. And, you know, I just, you're talking about, “Gosh, I would go on and on around the process.” And I'm like, we're doing that right now. Like, I hear you and I named shit. You know, I'm feeling a little my stuff, but I feel like I'm really here and get you. And then, you know, and then now it's, like, triggered this, this whole thing about how I am in session, how couples therapy feels for you. And, you know, I appreciate it. And, “Okay, what next?” 

Figs: Okay, yeah, I  – You know, that's fine. I feel again, yeah, we don't have to keep talking about it. It's fine. 

Therapist: I find myself, you know, understanding that couples therapy session is an invitation to the heat, right? 

Figs: Yeah. Yeah. 

Therapist: And you guys, at least my impression had been that you seem really up for it. Ready to go into the heat? 

Figs: Yeah. 

Therapist: And, you know, maybe, you know, like some therapy styles, mixing more positivity. And maybe we can do that more. 

Figs; Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's okay. You know, yeah, absolutely. 

Therapist: I found myself wanting to know more about how you're doing though Figs. And maybe you don't want to spend time on that.

[49:35]

Figs: No, I really, like again, you know, I do, I just feel a little bit. Like, you know, I don't know what we got here. Right. just feels like “Jesus. Like, we had an open road. And we somehow found ourselves, like, you know, in the middle of some desert.” 

Therapist: It had to do with slowing down. I think that's what started. 

Figs: Right. Yeah. You know, I just again, I just have this tightness in my chest, right? I just feel like, you know, frustrated, I'm a bit, you know, sad about ending up in what feels just like, a very confusing emotional place. And I don't know how necessarily to get out of it. And it's not acceptable, right? It's not acceptable for me to be down and dissatis– like, unhappy.

Therapist: Maybe it is, maybe that's what's happening. And we can spend time with it. 

Teale: Isn’t this exactly what you were describing? It's just like, getting to a place that feels really bad and not being kind of pressured to come out of it? Is so that I'm finding myself just, like, I just want to be in this space and I'm working with myself to not and I'm not feeling like I want to jump down the throat. I'm just kind of like, “Wow, this is happening. Like, right now.” 

Therapist: Maybe some of the shame is nearby underneath. 

Figs: Yeah, well, absolutely. It doesn't feel like it. Like again, I'm not doing it right. I'm not – That’s just what it feels like.

Therapist: I get it. 

Figs: You know, being stuck inside. Like there's some sense  – There's something else I'm supposed to do when I feel stuck and disappointed, right?

[51:52]

Therapist: It's like some kind of stop sign that says, “Uou better look at what you're doing, you're doing something wrong” Or something like that?

Figs: Yeah, exactly.

Teale: You felt really criticize by that when we were kind of like, “Qell let's do it in a less cognitive way”. Or,  “Hey, I really want to know more about that.”  As though you weren't doing it in the right way in that moment. And then I talked about why might that didn't feel good for you.  And then, you know, I talked about maybe what was coming up for me and then you felt like,  “Oh my God, we have to stop and process every single little thing happening so much right.” Now it feels like you just did it wrong. So I think I just hear that you're I don't know and I can be totally wrong. Like, that felt really really bad because you were doing that thing. You were you were describing it, you were going there. You were helping us understand. “Look, guys, I can feel this way.” And my combination of excitement and embarrassment. Just like felt like it really, like stopped things for you.

Figs: Yeah. Yeah, no, thank you. It helps me  – Like I feel like a combination of I'm too much and not enough all at the same time. The way I described things too much. It's too wordy.  –

Therapist: Yeah. 

Figs: It's too cognitive. I'm being too animated. I'm too fast. 

Therapist: I do want to say how I experienced you if you want to hear it. The overall arc of that period when you felt somewhat shut down.

[53:30]

Figs: Well, let me just say last part of this, that I can feel, “That's too much”. And then that quickly transitions into, “I'm not enough,”  Because, “Oh, I was too much again.” Which, you know, is the sudden interruption of positive affect, right, the shame. And now I'm in the, like, “Oh, look, I'm with two therapists who know how to process their feelings.” And I'm the shit one. I'm the crap one. Now I'm not enough. And now we're in some vortex. 

Teale: Totally, that totally makes sense to me that that's how you're experiencing. So I think, I like want to just touch you, like reach out to say, I care. And I feel I've felt exactly the way that you're feeling before. Not that's gonna help you. I'm just here. You're making sense. It totally makes sense.

Figs: Thank you.

Therapist:  I didn't even  – It made a lot of sense to me that you felt kind of shut down a little bit. Like, because I experienced you was in a kind of a trusting open joy of all the feelings that were connecting for you. And then the way you could explain it so articulately. It felt like you were riffing with us in a way, and you were joyful about it. And then,  “Oops!” Yeah, you know, calling in your vulnerability, you got called that you got to slow down. And so that's how I experienced it. 

Figs: Well, thank you. And I know we don't have a lot of time. Like just because, you know, like, I do really appreciate it. Because of both of you  – Because it does help me access the sadness inside. Like, like something that just came up, but it's just important to know that, you know, when I was 11/12 years old, I got disowned by all my friends when I moved from the suburbs to the city. And it just felt that extreme interruption, a positive affect. Like that shame, right? Like, I always thought I was like the leader of some group of people. And then I just like I told them too much, not enough. Haven't literally those people never talked to me again for the rest of them. Right. And I just like I feel like this moment that like is a microcosm of that, like, I thought I was just being me and like – 

Therapist: I thought so too.

Figs: And then I got to told. “You're being too much.” And I'm not saying this is actually what someone said, that's how it landed. And I got stuck in the shame place, but it actually really – I do notice, I just again want to reiterate, which is really nice. Just that place that I'd like to be able to go, which is to transitioning, to the sadness that's inside me. Like with it, you know, when this – 

Therapist: Beautiful, beautiful 

Figs: Because I was able to let it like your kind of reflection and also yours, which isn't. That's a big deal. Right? Because I I tend to not I won't let anyone in when I'm really hurting. Right, no one's going to get to see that plac.. So it does feel good that it was even the possibility to be sad and loveded in that place. You know. 

Therapist: I really, really feel honored that you could open up and stay with that with me.

Figs; Well, thank you.

[56:57]

Therapist: Can I say one thing about you know this about shame, right? You know that shame loves to be isolated in it, it thrives in isolation, and the best antidote is to reach out, or have someone reach out. Yeah, poor connection is the antidote for shame. Right. And the other thing I've heard about shame, which has helped me is that you break your shame up into two parts. There's a self writing part. Often times, there's a self writing part. And then there's the “I am shit” part. Right. And you just you jettison the ship part. And the self writing part is saying, like, "Huh, why is shame so hard to let go of? It's because there is some message that I want to take a look at what caused me to feel this." It might be just a message about your childhood and nothing about the present. You know? 

Figs: Yeah. No, absolutely. 

Teale: Are you sure?

Figs: Yeah, you can hug me. Your head on my shoulder.

Therapist: Good. I felt like this was, this was a good thing. That you went there. I don't think it's – 

Figs: You know, it was really good. It was really good. Thank you. 

Therapist: Yeah.

Figs: Yeah, I think we got, interestingly, it got to a deeper place by being messy than we would have by not being messy. 

Therapist: Right. So we can maybe we can think about all three of us. How do we navigate those times when there's a different, there's a different pace, and there's, you know, how do we talk about that?

Teale: I just, I feel really, like touched and like, I just feel really, I like feel your sadness. And I feel like I really, I really just got it. Right now. And just, you know, I'm just wanting, I don't want to – I want to help sort of uninterrupted joy in identifying it. And being able to celebrate it and to just sort of rest easy in myself. And I felt like I actually had an opportunity to do that in this session. Once I got it, and I felt really like untriggered throughout the whole time. You know, after like a little bit of embarrassment, I just felt again. 

Figs: So thank you. I really appreciate it.

[59:20 Session ends]

Figs: Well, that's always, always interesting watching yourself in a therapy session doesn't get easier. I have to say, “Whose idea was this again?” Yeah, what was that like for you, Teale, to watch our couple therapy session?

[59:42]

Teale: You know, I have to say, this was the most transformative session for me. I like felt like I learned so much. Did that learning come about in a kind of, like, gentle way of understanding? No, this felt really confrontive to me. 

Figs: What did you learn? 

Teale: Well, I felt like I was just learning so much about myself and how it's like I was in such a place in myself, like, “Oh, I really want to help I want to be present for Figs.” I think session two, I kind of felt like I took up a lot of space. And, you know, part of that taking up space is a risk and felt good. And the second therapy session, but I just wanted to give you some space. And then there I was, and I noticed how trying to invite and give you this space, I was just kind of very subtly aggressive and critical. And, “You're not doing it right.” It's like I'm saying it in a therapist-ey in a nice way. But what I saw was, “Oh, of course, that had some really painful impact for you.” And that's what we saw.

Figs: That was at the very beginning where you and the therapists were like, “You know, maybe you could actually do this better, Figs.” 

Teale: Yes. Yeah. No, that's a good point is that was in the beginning. And towards the end? What did I learn? Wow, I just, I felt like I learned about your sadness, and about something that started out feeling about like me and the therapist and how we were kind of critical. And then, whoa! Dropped into this much younger part of you. And so I felt like I learned about you. And that created understanding for me, it created empathy. And I had this great moment of recognizing, this is what's inside for Figs. “Here's this vulnerable place, it's actually sad, he looks so mad. But he's actually really sad.” So I had an experiential moment of learning, when my partner looks friggin pissed. It's not just one thing. It's not just anger and pissedness. There's a lot here. And some of that included sadness and despair and grief – 

Figs: Powerless. 

Teale: Yeah. 

Figs: Shame 

Teale: And the shame. And you let us and you let me and just towards the end, and it just felt like a gift. You call it a gift.

[62:01]

Figs: Thank you, sweetie. So nice to hear. And I'm looking at I do think for our listener that I'd really like – So self involved talking about ourselves and do their own therapy. But what you know, hopefully, this is useful for you. And what I would hope the big takeaway is, you know, like I mentioned in the intro, is that you get to see that just because some people, they don't wear their vulnerable emotions on their face, it doesn't mean they're not hurting inside. So it would be very easy to see me and hear me and like you interpret how Figs is just annoyed or irritated or he's just blabbing away. But actually, I'm starting to hit this deep sadness and not feeling understood. And starting to feel like, once again, I did it wrong. And I'm two months, and I'm starting to feel powerless and the shame. 

Teale: Right. 

Figs: And it's a really kind of potent, painful cocktail of vulnerable feelings inside me, that's hard to really sit with. And I end up talking a lot trying to get in touch with what bad experiences are inside me. But then in the talking, you know, I know, maybe on the surface, all you can see is frustrated, but I'm actually hurting inside. And I love what you're like  – If you can get a glimpse. I mean, obviously, if you're more like me, then you can realize about yourself, look, you're actually hurting when you're frustrated. And then of course, if your partner's that one, that it looks like they're just frustrated or annoyed and you start to get a little hook inside them into their vulnerable place that you're like, “Oh my god, all this time, I thought you were just so frustrated, angry person.” But now I get to see how you get really hurt – 

Teale: Yes.

Figs: When it looks like I'm disapproving of you or critical of you. That's huge. Because now you have a glimpse into who your partner really, really is at the deepest level. They're a vulnerable person too. And they really need your love. Like I really need your love. You know, and it's vulnerable for me to say that because my impulse is to protect myself or shut down or just be frustrated.

Teale: Right. 

Figs: So the last thing if  – I know I mentioned this in the intro that was huge for me personally is that  – I just  – So you have your therapist being very empathic as the session went on, and I could really trust that you both meant that you really got it all make sense. This would have hurt that you would have felt that sudden interruption from us like, we are criticizing you. And so it did give me the space. Just your validation of like, “It makes sense that you'd be hurt FIgs.”  Did give me the space to actually question what are the vulnerable feelings I'm having versus just, you know, just being frustrated. And then when I shared them, those vulnerable feelings that I was having, I did feel like, which is really still a strange, you know, experience for me to let in, I felt that you were very loving. And I let that touch, you know, the places inside me that I usually protect from getting hurt. And of course, if you protect those places from getting hurt, you also block out the ability that any love could get into those places.

Teale: Wow, like what you just said, I think it's so huge. And it's like, it's like, I know this, but it's blowing my mind. Just as you're saying it, you know, I can feel the parts of myself and I can  – It's really potent coming from you with this example. Like and how brave that was for you. And I'm also letting in, “Wow, I was doing it right.” And you know, what's cool is, I wasn't faking it. And you could feel that. It's like, sometimes I do and, you know, I think we see it back in sessions or we see it, you know, as we watch ourselves present as I can be feeling like I'm doing the right thing, or I need to do the right thing. But like, I just couldn't help it. So something about how you were in it that day, and something about having our wonderful therapists there. 

Figs: Yeah.

Teale: It was just, it was a gift, because you how you were doing it. And I suddenly was finally an access, like, “Oh, I'm feeling this.” And I think it was you. And it was staying with it. And it was having someone else to support us.

[66:24]

Figs: Well, thank you, I really appreciate it. Because I still have – I've kind of absorbed this judgment that two way one is supposed to feel their vulnerable feelings. And it has to be very dramatic. I see lots of tears when you feel sadness. And so even when I see the session back, I still have this judgment of myself, to really feel my sadness and my shame and the pain of not being understood. I should be feeling and expressing vulnerable emotions in a much bigger way than that. And so there's still some part of me that's like, I'm kind of amazed that you are being so empathic. Versus what I often seek someone like me in a relationship could be with a partner that they're like, “No, I still don't think they're vulnerable. I didn't see their tears.” Right. And so that's really huge to know that other people, they're still feeling a tremendous amount of pain. Even though they don't express their feeling, they don't show like, you know, like dramatic tears and snot coming out their nose, the way you might. That's what I'm hoping like, you know, our listeners and viewers could be like you and  –  Is like, “I can feel that pain inside of Figs. There it is.”  And be so empathic the way you were to me. You don't have to  have this signal to signpost, like, “I only know he's hurting if tears are streaming down his face.” And, “I don't even want to hug him because I'm worried I'm gonna get that snot from his nose on my shoulder.” Right. And last thing I'll just say, right, I'm gonna shut up, is I often liken the difference between  – It's like watching an American movie or a French movie. American movies, they really, really telegraph their feelings. “I'm sad. Look at these tears.” And a French movie, they don't necessarily show you that someone is bawling, crying. They just show like a table like a hallway table and someone puts the ring on the table. And then the blurred out background is someone leaving the door of the house. Right? 

Teale: [agreeing] Oh! Yeah! 

Figs: “Oh, God that was there.” Right there. Right. But that's what I'm like, you know, so I feel like you got right. “Oh, God, there it is. There it is. There's Figs sadness, there was the ring touching the whole table. And there's the door closing. Oh the the poor devil.” So that's hopefully I hope you listeners, viewers, you can start to really tap into your own subtle, vulnerable places inside and see them in each other and then love each other and be validated like you were. And thank you.

Teale: Thank you. And that's a powerful image. And I think you're absolutely right. And just for the listeners back home, you don't have to get it right the first time. I mean, think about this, meditate on it. But, listen, what you saw was that I didn't get it right. 

Figs: Exactly, that’s a really good point. 

Teale: Thanks. The first time that you gave me your patience. Oh, you know, I didn't get it real. 

Figs: But that's exactly that's where we have it where we have an opportunity. Yeah, right is after we got around, right? People always want to get it right the first time, right? No one gets it right the first time.

Teale:  This is the perfect example of magic is in the repair. 

Figs: Exactly. 

Teale: We didn't quite do that like in a synchronized way, but it was the French way. 

Figs: Okay. Okay. Well, thank you again. And we'll see you next week. Next week's episode, we're actually going to do a little bit of processing of what it's been like for us doing this whole project. I think it's going to be a good one because it has actually  – This whole project has been very triggering and activating. 

Teale: Yes. 

Figs: Sometimes a question like,  “Hold on a second, did we just make our whole lives and relationships even more complicated than it already was? Like in a pandemic, working, kids?” Like, “Oh my god.” But, yeah, tune into the next one, and I think it's going to be a really good one. So, see it. 

Teale: Thank you. Keep fighting the good fight people. 

Figs: Bye.