Speaker 1: Stop interrupting me.

Speaker 1: No matter what the internet says, neither of you are bad people.

Speaker 1: Welcome back, everybody.

Speaker 1: This is another Come Here To Me episode.

Speaker 1: I'm Figs, your host, and I'm joined today by our wonderful co-host, Steph.

Speaker 1: How are you, Steph?

Speaker 1: Good to see you.

Speaker 1: I'm doing great, Figs.

Speaker 1: Thanks for having me.

Speaker 1: Of course, of course.

Speaker 1: Today, we're going to do another hopefully short, concise, helpful

Speaker 1: podcast where we're going to look at another meme, little short video from the internet

Speaker 1: of a hard moment between a couple and show you how I, as an emotionally focused couples therapist,

Speaker 1: attachment-focused therapist, systems-focused therapist, would look at what's happened between

Speaker 1: the couple and how we would help that couple be able to make their relationship work,

Speaker 1: even from a place that seems, as you will see or hear in the clip, like an almost impossible

Speaker 1: place to imagine things ever getting better from.

Speaker 2: Don't know me, and I wouldn't have done it, and if you- If I don't know you, then why- Please stop interrupting me.

Speaker 2: The thing is, when I got down on one knee, again, I got interrupted.

Speaker 2: I'm done with this.

Speaker 1: Now, let's just be clear, right?

Speaker 1: We don't know the actual context, right?

Speaker 1: Why it never- It looks like one of those, I'm not a reality- A bachelor.

Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: And look, I'm not a reality TV person, no judgment to those that love it, and so I just have literally no idea what actually happened.

Speaker 1: I know for a lot of people that is problematic, right?

Speaker 1: How can you talk about something when you don't know the context?

Speaker 1: And when it comes to couples' work and helping relationship work, obviously context matters, and the history matters, but ultimately, if we're going to help a couple, we have to solve the present moment of time.

Speaker 1: And a lot of the time, the history leading up to the event and how both people relate to the history leading up to the event, it actually gets in the way of us resolving, fixing, healing a present moment, right?

Speaker 1: So in a weird way, it's actually quite helpful for us to be able to, just for a moment, go in

Speaker 1: and imagine we're unencumbered by the content and everything that's happened before,

Speaker 1: and just take a look at what is it that's actually going on just in these five or 10 seconds between

Speaker 1: this couple, and how would we have to frame it and have each member of the couple see and

Speaker 1: understand what's happening if we were going to help them transition from that level of

Speaker 1: disconnectedness, pain, suffering between the two of them to actually being able to be

Speaker 1: connected to each other?

Speaker 1: I don't know exactly what connected to each other would look like.

Speaker 1: It could be connected to each other where they're loving each other, but it also could be connecting to each other where one of us isn't collapsing, the other isn't crazy mad, but we actually just understand each other, even if we still determine it's impossible for us to make it work between each other.

Speaker 1: So the first thing is we want to try and help that couple get to a place that they understand what's actually happening right now, and right now being in this clip between them.

Speaker 1: Remember, there's two different people in each of them, and so we're going to have some idea about who the two different people in each of them are, right?

Speaker 1: Inside of him, we're making an assumption that we do always start with this assumption that there's actually someone inside him that is hurting.

Speaker 1: There is a vulnerable person, and I know for some viewers, listeners, this is going to be hard to believe, someone that can shout at their partner, significant other, stop interrupting me.

Speaker 1: Please stop interrupting me.

Speaker 1: It might be hard for you to believe that there's a

Speaker 1: vulnerable one inside of someone that shouts like that, but there's an assumption here,

Speaker 1: and we would test it, and 99 times out of 100, we will discover that assumption is right,

Speaker 1: that the only reason anybody shouts, stop interrupting me at someone else,

Speaker 1: is because their feelings are hurt, and the hurt feelings they're having are so overwhelming for

Speaker 1: them that they rise up and react and protest, and we know what this guy's protest is.

Speaker 1: He's exasperated, and he lashes out with his word, right?

Speaker 1: Stop interrupting me, and then even there you go again, like just got interrupted again, right?

Speaker 1: Can we like zoom in on that a little bit?

Speaker 1: Because this is an interesting Rorschach test where I look at it, and I see one thing as my initial reaction, and then I look at the comments, all completely different, where somebody's like, oh, she's really annoying, and my initial reaction was, he seems like a sociopath, like where's the emotion, like that kind of thing, as the like snap judgment.

Speaker 1: So when we take a look at him, and you're saying it's coming from a place of hurt, and it's rising up, people may say, well, where was any of the other emotion that was so sudden?

Speaker 1: That seems like really out of nowhere.

Speaker 1: I can't imagine that there would be something inside, other than like, you know, a sociopath.

Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1: Well, look, this is, we have to remember what we're trying to get to is where we can see that they're both hurting, and they're both reacting in ways that are very difficult for the other person, all at the exact same time.

Speaker 1: Now, everybody is going to come, given their life experience, and view this video, step into your own relationship, and you will have your first person perspective of what's going on and say, like, just this video, depending on what your vulnerabilities are, you will identify more as the woman in this video, you'll identify more as the man.

Speaker 1: Now, by the way, it doesn't even mean, it's even more complicated than that, unfortunately, because let's say you in your life identify more with the woman and the woman's pain, it doesn't mean that you necessarily immediately hate the guy in the video, you could identify with the woman's pain in your life, but dislike that part of yourself so much, that it's still the woman you hate, right?

Speaker 1: And you find annoying in the video.

Speaker 1: That's very interesting.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: And you could dislike the part of yourself that when you feel, you know, like powerless, like overwhelmed inside that you snap at people.

Speaker 1: And so you actually identify more with a man, but you dislike your own reactivity, or you dislike your own vulnerability.

Speaker 1: So you really judge him.

Speaker 1: And it's not uncommon.

Speaker 1: This is one of the most fascinating thing as couples therapists, it is not uncommon that therapists that are pursuers themselves, like they're the one that is more likely, let's say to be the woman in this video, like emotionally.

Speaker 1: Well, can you give a quick descriptor of what a pursuer is?

Speaker 1: Well, again, yeah, this is complicated.

Speaker 2: Take the quiz, but...

Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1: Take the empathy quiz, right?

Speaker 1: To learn about relentless lovers slash pursuers, and reluctant lovers slash emotional withdrawers.

Speaker 1: But look, the ultimate thing is I feel abandoned, I don't feel cared for, I don't feel like I'm a priority.

Speaker 1: And I'm likely to think of myself as too much or other people are going to think I'm too much, right?

Speaker 1: And the typical behavior of a pursuer, it's going to look like they're critical and blaming and disappointed in their partner.

Speaker 1: So it could be easy for someone at first to look at this video and just on what you see to go, well, he's the pursuer because he's the one that's protesting what sounds in a more critical way.

Speaker 1: But his wound is probably not, I'm not a priority, I don't matter.

Speaker 1: The ultimate source of the wound is it, I'm more likely to be seen as not enough.

Speaker 1: And my partner thinks they're the good one.

Speaker 1: And then of course, on the pursuer side, right, like I'm the one that's not loved and cared for, and my partner is doing it to me, right?

Speaker 1: So that's why even though it comes out, like she's collapsing.

Speaker 1: She's collapsing in on how unloved I am and how unfair this is.

Speaker 1: Let's just say all four parts very quickly, because it's really important.

Speaker 1: This is where we want to get to.

Speaker 1: And that's why it's so hard to do with a couple, right, is he's got a little wounded one where like, there's no room for me.

Speaker 1: It's impossible for me to be actually heard and seen as acceptable.

Speaker 1: And it's actually very overwhelming, right?

Speaker 1: I feel powerless.

Speaker 1: And it's just a devastating place to be inside.

Speaker 1: So he rises up into his protester.

Speaker 1: He is, you know, angry, exasperated, and stop interrupting me, right?

Speaker 1: This is always what happens.

Speaker 1: It's so unfair.

Speaker 1: He's hurt, and he protests.

Speaker 1: And of course, his protest lands on her like, see, I knew like, just doesn't care about my feelings, right?

Speaker 1: I'm not loved.

Speaker 1: Even when I'm in feeling vulnerable, he's going to be mean to me, right?

Speaker 1: It just confirms the story that I'm not loved.

Speaker 1: I'm not cared for.

Speaker 1: He's not going to be there for me.

Speaker 1: He's not going to be kind and gentle with me.

Speaker 1: So I'm like, she's completely now consumed.

Speaker 1: He's consumed, and there's no room for me, and I have to frickin' be angry.

Speaker 1: And now she's completely consumed as I'm not loved.

Speaker 1: And this is so wrong.

Speaker 1: She's completely now I am the victim, and I'm hurt.

Speaker 1: And so then her collapse is her protest.

Speaker 1: This is weird.

Speaker 1: If you identify with her, you would think of her collapse as just this absolute pure expression of vulnerability.

Speaker 1: But the collapse is actually the protest, and it lands as such.

Speaker 1: She collapses into absolute powerlessness, like her behavior.

Speaker 1: And that behavior then, it's an interruption.

Speaker 1: It is a reinjury.

Speaker 1: Her collapse into emotional outbreak of crying because of what you're doing to me actually re-injures him, re-hurts him.

Speaker 1: There is no room for me.

Speaker 1: I can never be seen as anything but bad.

Speaker 1: I'm unacceptable.

Speaker 1: It literally puts him in an impossible emotional prison inside, right?

Speaker 1: A powerlessness that is so bad for him that he rises up and, yep, see?

Speaker 1: You're doing it again.

Speaker 1: You're interrupting me again.

Speaker 1: So he's going to look really mean, and you don't see that he's hurting.

Speaker 1: And of course, she will hear that as like, this person is always going to not love me and be kind to me when I'm hurt.

Speaker 1: It just reaffirmed, right?

Speaker 1: It just reaffirmed.

Speaker 1: My heart is not safe with this person.

Speaker 1: So she's hurt, and she only sees him as bad.

Speaker 1: And then her behavior, she walks away, which again, absolutely confirms for him, from his first-person perspective, right?

Speaker 1: Oh my God.

Speaker 1: There's just no way out of being the bad one.

Speaker 1: I can't talk.

Speaker 1: I can't see anything.

Speaker 1: I can't try to make space for myself, right?

Speaker 1: Her emotionality will always trump my attempts to be heard, always.

Speaker 1: So he is now in a forever and ever, you're bad and you're powerless.

Speaker 1: In my world, it makes sense that he would then protest vehemently the way he does.

Speaker 1: Just like it, of course, makes sense that she now is, I am never going to really be considered, is never going to be loving and kind to me.

Speaker 1: I've hurt so much that I'm going to go into an emotional collapse, right?

Speaker 1: But of course, both of them, they're both throwing boomerangs.

Speaker 1: What they're doing, and they're not doing it on purpose, right?

Speaker 1: It's not like it's a choice.

Speaker 1: Both of their protest behaviors absolutely guarantee that they both stay really hurt, not met, not heard, not understood, not loved by each other.

Speaker 1: And it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy that there is no way for them to both get their needs met at the same time or ever.

Speaker 1: So for him, for the man, would you say that the interrupting to him feels like a rejection of him and then that hits the wound?

Speaker 1: Is that one of the ways of reading the protest versus wound situation?

Speaker 1: Yeah, well, if you think about it, here's how it lands, right?

Speaker 1: That her hurt, her feelings, they always trump, no pun intended, post-election week, right?

Speaker 1: But they always are a bigger priority than him being heard and understood, right?

Speaker 1: It's always a bigger priority that her hurt feelings, and they're so important, and they're so big, right?

Speaker 1: Because that's what happens.

Speaker 1: Remember, the emotional pursuer lives in a world that I'm so clearly hurt.

Speaker 1: I'm validly hurt.

Speaker 1: And I'm typically, I am the good one at being able to feel emotions and share emotions in the relationship.

Speaker 1: And the other person is a hurter.

Speaker 1: My withdrawing partner is a hurter, and their behavior is so clearly bad, right?

Speaker 1: That it almost always makes sense for them.

Speaker 1: How they try and make things better is I want to tell you about my feeling.

Speaker 1: And so even when, let's say, so here's this moment where the guy that necessarily isn't very good at feeling his feelings and sharing what's going on, and he's trying to, and as he's trying to, of course, the conversation comes back through her emotion, through her first trying to explain herself.

Speaker 1: Actually, no, let's talk about me.

Speaker 1: Let's talk about my experience.

Speaker 1: And then when he says, stop interrupting me.

Speaker 1: And then that hurts her feelings even more.

Speaker 1: And then her collapse has the impact and the effect of actually interrupting him again.

Speaker 1: It confirmed we are not in a relationship of equals where my experience is seen as as important as yours, right?

Speaker 1: Because the pursuer is the most hurt one, and you're the most crap one in the relationship.

Speaker 1: And unfortunately, that leaves the other person, whereas, okay, if I'm seen as bad, and my experience is invalid, they're going to actually give you the behavior that you perceive as so hurtful.

Speaker 1: This one is particularly angry.

Speaker 1: And I just had enough of being interrupted.

Speaker 1: But that is a consequence of a pattern of experiences.

Speaker 1: He may not have had it with her, but he's had it throughout his life that my experience isn't as important as the pursuer's experience.

Speaker 1: Right?

Speaker 1: Could I ask you a little bit about her perspective of how his behavior is landing with her, and how that turns into a reaction that makes sense?

Speaker 1: Well, absolutely.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: So she looks, she most likely lives in a world where I am so hurt, and you have hurt me, you haven't been caring, you haven't prioritized, you haven't considered me, you haven't loved me fully, and I've been hurt.

Speaker 1: And now I'm really trying to get him to understand how hurt I am, and actually believe I'm giving you an opportunity, I'm actually trying to help you, I actually want to be connected to you.

Speaker 1: And to be connected to you means you would show up in a particular way for my hurt one.

Speaker 1: So she's actually trying to tell him, like, this is the way you should show up.

Speaker 1: Now, it doesn't land that way.

Speaker 1: By the way, incredible parallels with our political system.

Speaker 1: Right?

Speaker 1: I mean, you know, well, the progressives, let's say, and Democrats at large, are pursuers.

Speaker 1: We have been so hurt, we've been so wronged.

Speaker 1: And it's so clear.

Speaker 1: And it's so obvious, for hundreds of years, like, we really are righteous and how hurt we are.

Speaker 1: And we're going to tell other people, and they need to see it.

Speaker 1: And they need to show up for us in a particular way.

Speaker 1: But when they speak to their withdrawing partner, that is already now, look, I got the message, I'm bad, I'm crap, I'm unacceptable, I'm not supposed to feel this way.

Speaker 1: What do they we get back?

Speaker 1: Well, like, stubbornness, resentment, stop interrupting me, don't tell me what to think.

Speaker 1: And of course, what does it do, right, to the pursuer progressive?

Speaker 1: Ah, trigger warning, right, which, of course, makes the withdrawer even more powerless, the, you know, Republicans, right wing, whatever you want to call it, right?

Speaker 1: You're telling me I'm even more unacceptable.

Speaker 1: I'm so exasperated.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: And of course, it's heartbreaking for both of them, right.

Speaker 1: But where it breaks down is it's we have a better chance with the couple of helping them resolve it.

Speaker 1: And maybe not this couple, because it's a bloody TV show.

Speaker 1: Let's say you the couple at home, right, you the couple at home, we have a better chance of helping you resolve this, because there's an assumption, another assumption we're making is you're living together or going to movies twice a week together, spending your time together, you're actually very important to each other.

Speaker 1: And there is some actually inherent belief that this relationship matters to both of us.

Speaker 1: And it would be beneficial to both of us if we could get our shit together and get along.

Speaker 1: Yes.

Speaker 1: So we can use that to actually help this couple get along and see and now listen, all of that is happening, right?

Speaker 1: You're feeling unacceptable.

Speaker 1: You're being a little resentful.

Speaker 1: The other person is hurting validly.

Speaker 1: And yeah, you are telling them what to think and what to say.

Speaker 1: It's not going well.

Speaker 1: You're both hurt.

Speaker 1: You're nice.

Speaker 1: If we both got on the same page and went, Hey, can we see we're in a system where we're both hurting?

Speaker 1: We're both hurting each other.

Speaker 1: And we're both valid.

Speaker 1: And could we kind of from that, then try and solve problems.

Speaker 1: I'm very skeptical on the political part.

Speaker 1: You know, I'm very happy always to help build bridges between people politically.

Speaker 1: But on a national level, we're recording this on two days after the election.

Speaker 1: I'm skeptical that the time is now but I'm still optimistic that there will be some moment in the future where pursuers, withdrawers, progressives and right wingers go for flip sake, we're both hurting, we're both hurting each other.

Speaker 1: And we got to get our shit together because everybody's valid.

Speaker 1: And our country, the world really matters.

Speaker 1: And we're all in it together.

Speaker 1: We're not going to get rid of the other person.

Speaker 1: We can't get rid of everybody else.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: As many fantasies as people may have of splitting up the country.

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 1: You're not going to split them up.

Speaker 1: And you can't convert them all to you, right?

Speaker 1: Like again, your pursuers can't get the withdrawal partner to be like them.

Speaker 1: I want you to cry more, right?

Speaker 1: I need you to call me sweetie pootie peepee poo pie every day, right?

Speaker 1: Like saying, stop trying to make everybody into you.

Speaker 1: Right?

Speaker 1: Everybody's right.

Speaker 1: No violence, no threats of violence.

Speaker 1: People have a right to feel and think what they do.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: And then on the other side, just for equity, the conservative or right wing side isn't necessarily going to continue to win over the country by what would be the relationship equivalent be?

Speaker 1: Well, the relationship equivalent would be to completely ignore you pursue or you like, I'm going to keep telling you're too much.

Speaker 1: You're too.

Speaker 1: Whoa.

Speaker 1: The way you protest is so invalid that the wounds you have inside are also invalid, right?

Speaker 1: That that would be the mistake, right?

Speaker 1: We don't like how you protest.

Speaker 1: So we think your protests are invalid.

Speaker 1: So we will also invalidate the wounds that those protests come from.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: And look, these are real wounds, right?

Speaker 1: Like whether we're talking about equality, whether we're talking about there are real people that are immigrants, whether we're talking about reproductive rights, like these are real wounds and people are really threatened.

Speaker 1: And those threats to those people are real.

Speaker 1: You can reject the pursuers protester, but fingers crossed, don't reject the actual wounds are real and actually be loving and caring and considerate and take considerate action for those that are actually hurting.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: And unfortunately, what happens is just the same as in a relationship when we don't like the person's protest behavior, we reject the validity of their actual wounding suffering.

Speaker 1: And we don't meet their wounding and suffering with compassion.

Speaker 1: Because then it hits our wound and suffering and on and on.

Speaker 1: Well, yeah, we'd have to get this more global point of view.

Speaker 1: There's three things you could focus on in a relationship, right?

Speaker 1: Two of them are really good.

Speaker 1: One of them is bad.

Speaker 1: The two that are good.

Speaker 1: What is it in me that is happening emotionally inside me?

Speaker 1: And what am I doing that perpetuates the negative system and cycle that I am in, we are in?

Speaker 1: And then what is it that we together are doing that is making our relationship, our political world, our social world, a shitshow?

Speaker 1: The one that's bad is because it's the easiest thing to gorge yourself on.

Speaker 1: What is that the other person is doing or the other side is doing that is terrible?

Speaker 1: Now, here we are two days later, right?

Speaker 1: And there aren't a lot of Democrats, no offense to my lifelong brothers and sisters, right?

Speaker 1: That are like, wait a second, what have we been doing?

Speaker 1: What is it we ourselves did that we got it so wrong?

Speaker 1: We've been tone deaf, right?

Speaker 1: There's some.

Speaker 1: And then what is this system that we and the other side are co-creating?

Speaker 1: Now, the same is true on the other side, right?

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Like I see like, you know, conservative comments like Kamala makes great concession speech.

Speaker 1: And instead of being able to take it graciously, they're like, yeah, but what have you been doing for the last four years?

Speaker 1: They're still going to focus on what is it that the other side did wrong?

Speaker 1: You know, and in the moment of victory, it's often a moment that, okay, now I don't feel threatened.

Speaker 1: I could take a look at myself and what have I been doing to perpetuate this negative political climate in our world?

Speaker 1: I mean, if you're ever going to make a relationship work, it can't ever just be the other person's fault.

Speaker 1: I get really worried when I see a couple, if one of them or both of them are hell bent on, it is just the other person's fault and the other person has to get their shit together.

Speaker 1: There isn't actually a viable path to making that relationship work.

Speaker 1: If one of us or both of us never move from, it is just the other person's problem.

Speaker 1: And unfortunately for our country, last thing I'll say, marriage is marriage, you can get divorced, the kids can have a shit life in separate homes, you know, whatever, you can do what you want.

Speaker 1: But our country, there's not a great viable path to we just go our separate ways.

Speaker 1: So it's a little worrying.

Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I'll say the one thing that gives me hope as a Democrat, is the recognition that there is such a just disconnect in terms of internet spaces, literally just being in two separate worlds, but sharing the same space, like the literal connection is a huge issue in terms of being able to actually talk to people.

Speaker 1: You know, they do polls and like the responses are people just having no idea what the other perspective is at all, like no understanding.

Speaker 1: I'm saying this on the left and the right.

Speaker 2: Sure.

Speaker 1: Because there's just, you know, if you are living in a different country, and you never call your partner, if there's no communication, there's no connection.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: I mean, so that is the thing that I think a lot of people's minds are on and trying to solve.

Speaker 1: Yeah, I saw an interesting meme, which I tend to think has some validity to it that actually, the left doesn't understand the right.

Speaker 1: But the right is better at understanding the left because many people on the right were once progressives.

Speaker 1: So, you know, people, as they get older, they get more conservative.

Speaker 1: But so they had at some point, they were actually progressive themselves.

Speaker 1: Well, I mean, the same, I would put that under question, just because of, for instance, like college educated voters tend to trend more liberal.

Speaker 1: So then they're rationally, there's like a change that happens over education, whether you want to talk about the actual learning things, or the culture, etc.

Speaker 1: There's definitely like, people go back and forth.

Speaker 1: And that's why every year, it's like a 50 50, what's going on, who is where.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: But I do think there's validity to the idea that the left, because it thinks it's the right one, because it's the pursuer, basically, isn't necessarily interested in figuring out what the other perspective is.

Speaker 1: And then the right is kind of knows the perspective and kind of shrugs, you know?

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: So we remember when I we have a couple come into my office, and there's a pursuer and a withdraw, the pursuer is I'm really hurt.

Speaker 1: I'm actually very good at relationship.

Speaker 1: And I've been unfairly hurt.

Speaker 1: And my partner is bad.

Speaker 1: They're not good at relationship.

Speaker 1: And then the other person comes in, they're like, they're dreading the session, because great, here's another venue that I'm going to be told that I am bad, I need to show up differently.

Speaker 1: And then we talk.

Speaker 1: And that they hear, hey, by the way, it's both of you, you're both hurting, and you both hurt each other.

Speaker 1: That is an easier message for the person that has been seen as absolutely bad to get on board with, then it is a message for the person who has been I am absolutely righteously hurt.

Speaker 1: And the other side, the other person is bad.

Speaker 1: And there's no reason to ever change and try and understand the other person when you're absolutely sure that I am hurt, and the other person is absolutely bad, and their behavior is a threat to me.

Speaker 1: There's nothing to understand what they need to do is they need to change, right.

Speaker 1: And so just like with a couple, it is going to be harder, it is harder to get the pursuer to come to, hey, listen, it's both of you.

Speaker 1: And by the way, and that would be good for you, it's only the other side or bad is a really bad outcome for you.

Speaker 1: Now, if someone maintains forever and ever, the other side is just bad, and they need to change, like, like, again, you do you, right?

Speaker 1: But it's an impossible outcome for a relationship.

Speaker 1: So yeah, it is easier, typically, for the side in a couple or in a country that have been seen as inherently bad, just by the very nature of the setup to go, I could sign up for I'm hurting, and you're hurting, and we're both bad.

Speaker 1: It's the net gain for them from their personal perspective, where it seems at first, like a net loss at first from the person that I'm hurting so much, and the other person has done it all to me.

Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a little harder of a pill to swallow.

Speaker 1: And like, it's hard to see how you get past that part to then feeling like the other person is there for you and showing up in the ways that ultimately matter, you know?

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 1: And so look, that's where we want to learn this stuff.

Speaker 1: First, and our relationships, because what we have going for us is our relationship matters, our marriage matters, our family matters, our relationship to each other matters, right?

Speaker 1: Our relationship with our community and friends matter.

Speaker 1: We have a vested interest in making this work.

Speaker 1: We love each other, even if we drive each other crazy.

Speaker 1: I always love that pop song.

Speaker 1: What is it?

Speaker 1: If our love is a tragedy, then why are you my remedy?

Speaker 1: Wow.

Speaker 1: Semi-throwback.

Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know how long that is.

Speaker 1: It's probably 10, 15 years ago, right?

Speaker 1: But I love it.

Speaker 1: It feels like it was yesterday, so it was probably like, yeah, 15 years ago.

Speaker 1: It's a dance track, right?

Speaker 1: And you know, I'm European, right?

Speaker 1: This is the thing, right?

Speaker 1: In a couple, the relationship is important enough that some part of them knows it doesn't work that we both just go to our respective corners of the internet or the corners of the house, and hate on each other, right?

Speaker 1: It's not a viable long-term solution, and they know that.

Speaker 1: So good news with a couple, we can learn that.

Speaker 1: The couple in the meme that we just shared, right, doesn't have to be with each other, right?

Speaker 1: But here we are.

Speaker 1: We've got a present moment where, look, I'm feeling powerless.

Speaker 1: I'm the bad one.

Speaker 1: And anytime I try and talk about it, it hurts your feelings.

Speaker 1: You feel like you're getting hurt more.

Speaker 1: So you end up protesting by trying to be understood, which leaves me feeling more powerless.

Speaker 1: There's no room for me.

Speaker 1: My feelings are always the less important.

Speaker 1: I'm not understood.

Speaker 1: So I'm even more angry at you, more like, stop interrupting me.

Speaker 1: And then you're even more.

Speaker 1: I am so hurt.

Speaker 1: You're so unkind to me.

Speaker 1: Like, I need kindness.

Speaker 1: And it hurts so much when you're not kind.

Speaker 1: And then I go into a complete self-righteous and behavioral collapse, just the equivalent of a stop interrupting me.

Speaker 1: And I have every right just to walk away from you.

Speaker 1: And so I'm heartbroken when I walk away.

Speaker 1: You're never going to give me the love I need.

Speaker 1: And I'm so alone.

Speaker 1: And then he's also heartbroken when you walk away, because I am not actually that bad.

Speaker 1: But once again, I'm seen as bad and unacceptable, and there's no way out.

Speaker 1: There's no way out.

Speaker 1: So it's heartbreaking for both of them.

Speaker 1: Now, if I had that couple for long enough, I don't know, it could be 100 hours long enough, right?

Speaker 1: It could be one, but it could be 100, right?

Speaker 1: And I could get them on board with that perspective, right?

Speaker 1: That we'd be able to show him that, listen, you're feeling powerless inside.

Speaker 1: Like, could you tell her you're feeling powerless?

Speaker 1: And it's hard that you're feeling like there's no way to explain yourself.

Speaker 1: That's why you get angry, right?

Speaker 1: And I can show her like, hey, hey, hey, can you be hurt and share your hurt without collapsing?

Speaker 1: Can you hear him and understand it actually makes sense that it's really painful and powerless for you when there's no room for you to share without my feelings taking over?

Speaker 1: And of course, I could help him.

Speaker 1: Can you see that she gets really scared that she's never going to get cared for?

Speaker 1: And being cared for by you means so much to her that she's so frightened that it hurts so much that she collapses.

Speaker 1: Look how hard this is for both of you.

Speaker 1: And both of you actually deserve a lot of love and care in that place, right?

Speaker 1: And then if we could just like, can you see each other, right?

Speaker 1: You're both hurt, and you both hurt each other, and you both make sense.

Speaker 1: Neither of you are bad people.

Speaker 1: No matter what the internet says, looking at your 10 seconds of internet meme fame, both of you make sense.

Speaker 1: It really makes sense you would collapse when it looks like he's getting angry with you.

Speaker 1: And it absolutely makes sense that you would be exasperated.

Speaker 1: And you would, don't interrupt me, right?

Speaker 1: When you feel powerless inside, there's no room for your feelings.

Speaker 1: No bad people here.

Speaker 1: This is a totally normal reaction between two people that are really important to each other.

Speaker 1: Don't be listening to the trolls on the internet.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: And the bots.

Speaker 1: And the bots.

Speaker 1: Remember, you're humans.

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 1: But who says that, by the way?

Speaker 1: Like, is there one?

Speaker 1: And I'm not getting involved in commenting on the internet.

Speaker 1: I'm sorry.

Speaker 1: I'm not stupid.

Speaker 1: Like, some other hero.

Speaker 1: It's not only me.

Speaker 1: I am not a hero.

Speaker 1: I'm not making well-meaning, balanced comments politically, or about some relationship meme, where like 100% of them are picking sides.

Speaker 1: If 100% of them are picking sides, I don't want this.

Speaker 1: I will stand in front of that train when a couple comes to see me.

Speaker 1: And I'll do it over and over again, right?

Speaker 1: Like, I'm a vampire.

Speaker 1: If they invite me in, you know, the vampire myth, right?

Speaker 1: Like, I can't go into their house without them inviting me in.

Speaker 1: If they invite me in, I'll come in, right?

Speaker 1: They come to my office, I will stand in front of the train.

Speaker 1: And if both of them being consumed with the other person is an asshole, right?

Speaker 1: She's so annoying.

Speaker 1: He's such an asshole.

Speaker 1: I will help them go actually, you're both right.

Speaker 1: And at the same time, you're not right.

Speaker 1: It's only happened because you're both hurting because you freaking love each other, right?

Speaker 1: Not gonna hear anything else, right?

Speaker 1: That's what's happening.

Speaker 1: And the sooner you get on board on that, then we can make your relationship work.

Speaker 1: I will do that in a therapy room.

Speaker 1: I'm not doing it on the interwebs.

Speaker 1: It's just not working.

Speaker 1: That's okay.

Speaker 1: So I'll take the bullet.

Speaker 1: I'll go in the comments.

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 1: You can go.

Speaker 1: But that's also why I like the work that you do so much as somebody who is just interested in people and politics and what have you, because even if you're not talking about politics, you're not talking about, you know, my favorite TV show, you're not talking about music or poetry, or you're talking about relationships, but that is fundamental to human nature.

Speaker 1: And it helps you to understand everything in the world a little bit better.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: So I approve of the way that you participate.

Speaker 1: Well, thank you.

Speaker 1: Thank you.

Speaker 1: And look, I try as much as I can to stay in my lane, right?

Speaker 1: I know it's always risky.

Speaker 1: Like, I do think I have some expertise worthy of commenting on love and relationship.

Speaker 1: I'm very aware of great free speech, and it's good that people have the freedom to explore ideas and to share their ideas that they're wrestling with and, you know, and thinking about in their own head when they go for a walk and not be ripped apart if it's not absolutely correct.

Speaker 1: I don't know how anybody actually gains any expertise without trying things on, embodying it, sharing it, refining it, getting feedback, being willing to take that feedback in.

Speaker 1: Unfortunately, we've kind of lost that kind of town square that that's an acceptable practice, which is really sad.

Speaker 1: So anyway, look, this couple, both of them make a lot of sense to me.

Speaker 1: And again, unfortunately, the circumstances of a dating show, that may not be conducive to them genuinely repairing.

Speaker 1: But let's say that couple was there living together for the last three years, or they met and they had a wonderful two-month honeymoon, and now they're really upset they're not getting on.

Speaker 1: I would be actually very confident that I could help them.

Speaker 1: And I just need like people

Speaker 1: that know how to do this work, could actually help them understand each other, get rid of at

Speaker 1: least the suffering of how painful it is not to be understood by each other, and then get them to the

Speaker 1: threshold of revelation, just this threshold moment, right, where they could then choose,

Speaker 1: do we meet the needs of the unaccepted one and the abandoned one and choose to actually be there for

Speaker 1: those two valid hurts in each other, and then decide to do that over and over again.

Speaker 1: I'm pretty confident we could get them to that threshold and understand each other and that they then we see what emerges, they choose each other and they love each other forever, or whatever is appropriate time for them is, right.

Speaker 1: But it would be dramatically less suffering, even if we can just get to that place where we both make sense.

Speaker 1: It's not she's annoying, or he's an asshole.

Speaker 1: I'll tell you one thing.

Speaker 1: That's not true.

Speaker 1: Right?

Speaker 1: She is not annoying, and he is not an asshole.

Speaker 1: She lays an annoying person on TV, and he lays an asshole on TV.

Speaker 1: But deep down inside, they're both very valid and very lovable.

Speaker 1: And not just because they're on reality TV, is it played on TV?

Speaker 1: Not just because they're on reality TV.

Speaker 1: So that's it.

Speaker 1: That's all I wanted to say about that.

Speaker 1: We kind of got into the political thing.

Speaker 1: By the way, I should like give a shout out to Teal.

Speaker 1: And maybe we'll talk about this.

Speaker 1: You know, Teal and I don't see eye to eye politically.

Speaker 1: Like, you know, I'm like, I would say, I'm like center right leaning with like, like typical, socially liberal, economically more libertarian.

Speaker 1: So Teal and I really got into a tough discussion about this.

Speaker 1: Maybe we'll do an episode on it.

Speaker 1: Like a lot of the stuff I'm talking about, the cycle between Democrats and Republicans is the fruit of us going in difficult conversation with each other.

Speaker 1: And instead of us both like her retreating to my husband's second asshole, I'm me retreating.

Speaker 1: Oh, there she is.

Speaker 1: There's no point in talking to her because she's so self righteous.

Speaker 1: We were able to put it into the cycle, right?

Speaker 1: I think there's no point in talking.

Speaker 1: So I'm going to be defensive and resentful.

Speaker 1: I'm like, I'm so hurt.

Speaker 1: I'm going to keep explaining to you.

Speaker 1: And we could see how yeah, we're stuck in a cycle where we're both hurting and we both make sense.

Speaker 1: If you guys did an episode on that, I think that would be really valuable.

Speaker 1: That's just my two cents.

Speaker 1: Yeah, we we might we have a small enough audience.

Speaker 1: I think it's around 1000 ish people view the videos and listen to the episodes.

Speaker 1: So I've only 1000 people to avoid.

Speaker 1: Like 52,000 if they were all different people, 52 would get like a year would get tricky.

Speaker 1: Like if you know, but look, on this episode, thank you.

Speaker 1: Come here to me, listeners, watchers.

Speaker 1: And thank you, Steph.

Speaker 1: Thanks, Fitz.

Speaker 1: And if anyone has any other I guess reality TV little clips to send over that would be a good idea to look at.

Speaker 1: These have been pretty useful as a snapshot in time.

Speaker 1: Yeah, I enjoy it, right?

Speaker 1: Because it's the snapshot we have to fix.

Speaker 1: We got to fix the present moment, not the past, not the future.

Speaker 1: If we fix the present moment, it actually infects the past with this new beautiful moment.

Speaker 1: And it changes the future to a brighter one.

Speaker 1: Thanks, everyone.

Speaker 1: Okay, thank you.

Speaker 1: Next time.

Speaker 1: Bye.

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