Speaker 1: Woman has a story that never showed up for me.

Speaker 1: I'm off to the pub to tell the guys she's never happy.

Speaker 1: Both of those stories are a dead end and a disaster for those people.

Speaker 1: Welcome back.

Speaker 1: Come here to me podcast listeners and viewers.

Speaker 1: This week's episode is actually a guest presentation I did on Nick Gregoriadis's show, but Nick has decided not to continue recording and releasing episodes at this time for his own show.

Speaker 1: He's been gracious enough to let me get the interview out into the world, even though he's not going to publish it himself.

Speaker 1: So thank you, Nick.

Speaker 1: I particularly like this interview because Nick is a fellow commonwelter like myself, from one of the former British colonies.

Speaker 1: He's from South Africa and from Ireland, and so we really kind of get into it a little bit about how do you make love and relationship work.

Speaker 1: Nick was a little bit skeptical, and I'll let you be the judge.

Speaker 1: And if I changed his mind.

Speaker 2: Hey everyone, welcome back to Nick Gregoriadis' show.

Speaker 2: I'm here with Mr. Figgs O'Sullivan, who is in Oahu, Hawaii, by way of Dublin, Ireland.

Speaker 2: I'm so happy to have you on, Figgs.

Speaker 2: Thanks for coming on the show.

Speaker 1: Thanks for having me, Nick.

Speaker 1: Really honored to be here.

Speaker 2: Yeah, this one is one that I've been looking forward to for a while, primarily because you bill yourself as a relationship expert.

Speaker 2: And I was just talking to someone the night before last, and I said to them, I would estimate conservatively that 80 to 85% of all the pain in my life that I've experienced in my life was directly related to relationships or relationship failures, specifically.

Speaker 2: So it's something that I am very interested in, because I sure as fuck don't want to go through that shit again on any level.

Speaker 2: So if you can teach myself and some of the listeners how to avoid at least some of the pain that's inherent with relationships, I'm all ears.

Speaker 2: I guess my first question would be, what qualifies you to be dispensing this advice?

Speaker 1: Yeah, well, that is the most important question, right?

Speaker 1: Actually, yeah, because there's 18-year-old relationship experts out there right now, right?

Speaker 2: I've seen a couple of them, yeah.

Speaker 1: Exactly, right.

Speaker 1: So everybody and anyone could be a relationship expert, right?

Speaker 1: So basically, the most important qualifier is, look, I've had trauma in my own life, right?

Speaker 1: I'm a cliched Irish story, son of an alcoholic father, heartbroken mother.

Speaker 1: And, you know, so I just had my own pain and suffering being from a broken family, so to speak.

Speaker 1: And then I actually, you know, tried everything I could to compensate for that, you know, drinking, gambling, womanizing, you name it, right?

Speaker 1: I've done it, you know, good Irish fella in his 20s living in San Francisco, like a lunatic in the 90s.

Speaker 1: You know, so I've gone through all of the attempts, you know, to like try to hide my own pain.

Speaker 1: And then, of course, I've done every different type of relationship, whether it's, you know, rescuing people, chasing strippers and actresses.

Speaker 1: And like, I've just made all the mistakes.

Speaker 1: And to be honest with you, that is really, I think, the most important qualification.

Speaker 1: I always say that, like when I hire therapists for my own company, like I'm only looking for traumatized therapists.

Speaker 1: You have to have had trauma.

Speaker 1: So I have all of that, like, you know, that I have wounding that I have to integrate.

Speaker 1: And then most importantly, because I didn't know how to make love and relationship work, I actually, you know, learned how to do it.

Speaker 1: And for me, the big change was I was already a therapist.

Speaker 1: But you know, I still couldn't get my act together because I really wanted to be a husband and a dad.

Speaker 1: And so I learned how to do this thing called emotionally focused couples therapy.

Speaker 1: And it's the gold standard, most researched evidence-based way to help couples.

Speaker 1: And it just blew my mind away.

Speaker 1: I mean, and I really don't even mean at first, like helping other people.

Speaker 1: I was sitting in the trainings and I wanted to vomit because I was like, oh my God, this is so me.

Speaker 1: Like I am every single one of these characters that describe them, that you could help them this way.

Speaker 1: I'm like, I'm all of those people.

Speaker 1: And I just, I could barely sit still in the trainings.

Speaker 1: So I learned how to do this thing.

Speaker 1: It actually helped me be able to, you know, form a good relationship with my now wife and have two kids.

Speaker 1: Shocking, right?

Speaker 1: That I'm a husband and a dad, right?

Speaker 1: You know, serial relationship failure, right?

Speaker 1: To like actually live in my dream, you know, the dream of a little boy that it was me that could be part of a family.

Speaker 1: And so now I'm like, you know, I'm 12 years into being a couples therapist and I've helped, I think I've done about 15,000 hours of sitting with couples, right?

Speaker 1: And I'm just doing this thing, helping them work out what love is, who you are as a person, who the other person is as a person, what you're co-creating with each other.

Speaker 1: And then I hate to use technical language, but helping that couple calm the fuck down and get to a place that they're safe for each other.

Speaker 1: And then another technical term and then love the shit out of each other.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: So I know how I have to learn it myself and I know how to help other people that are feeling threatened by each other, feel safe with each other and then love each other again.

Speaker 2: Okay.

Speaker 2: I mean, that sounds good.

Speaker 2: It sounds amazing.

Speaker 2: I respect the hell out of you for being vulnerable enough to admit that, yeah, you fucked up in your past and that was your pathway to being the person you are and doing the work you do is like, you didn't come from this place of expertise.

Speaker 2: You came from this place of wounding, right?

Speaker 2: I respect that a lot.

Speaker 2: My, my reservations are, I think it's, it's a limitation within my own mind, but I still think there is some, some value to it.

Speaker 2: And that is that it's my understanding that generally counseling and therapy, by the time it gets to that point, it's too far gone.

Speaker 2: And from what I've, the statistics that I've been exposed to, it's also my understanding that the success rate of therapy is very, very low.

Speaker 2: Let's say we take, and I'm throwing random numbers out here, but it's my understanding.

Speaker 2: You take a hundred couples who are not doing well, they go to therapy five years later, the vast majority of those will either be divorced or if they're still together, they're, they hate each other's guts, right?

Speaker 2: The, the amount of them that have become loving, happy, successful relationships is pretty low.

Speaker 1: And again, that's not an accurate statistic, but I think there's some, well, let me give you actual statistics and I'll give you the research paper to put in the show notes so that it's not, you know, it's not just me spouting away, right?

Speaker 1: So emotionally focused couples therapy.

Speaker 1: And again, this is the other thing.

Speaker 1: I'm just not, I'm not making this up how we help couples, right?

Speaker 1: Like, so it's called emotionally focused couples therapy.

Speaker 1: This woman called Sue Johnson was the creator of it.

Speaker 1: Now, when I say the creator of it, it's an integrated model, right?

Speaker 1: It's comes from all different parts of, you know, psychotherapy and wisdom that we already had.

Speaker 1: And here are the statistics, right?

Speaker 1: When we put people through 12 sessions, now let's be clear, this research, it was 12, 90 minutes sessions.

Speaker 1: The therapist was sitting with the couple, and then they were watching the video like in between sessions, right?

Speaker 1: 86% of those couples showed significant improvement in their relationship.

Speaker 1: And we go, when we go back to those couples, two years later, 75% of them still maintain the gains.

Speaker 1: Now that's like, you know, peer reviewed research.

Speaker 1: Let me just talk for myself, right?

Speaker 1: So, you know, just for myself, oh, I can take a couple that have already divorced.

Speaker 1: They're already living in opposite, like separate States, help them understand what's really going on inside each of them and have them back living together with two or three months.

Speaker 1: Now I know that is not a sales pitch.

Speaker 1: What happens is the vast majority of people, they don't understand themselves.

Speaker 1: They don't understand the system that they're co-creating with someone else.

Speaker 1: They don't really understand what love is.

Speaker 1: And so they end up, right?

Speaker 1: Most people, when they're in relationship distress, they're running around with a can that they think is labeled, it's got water in it, but it's actually gasoline.

Speaker 1: What almost every human being does is they throw gasoline on the fire of their disconnection and they make things worse.

Speaker 1: So one of the first things I got to do is show them, Hey, would you look at what you're doing?

Speaker 1: You're hurting right now.

Speaker 1: And everything that you think is an intuitive thing and a rational thing to do to get out of this pain, you're literally making it worse.

Speaker 1: Now your partner is the same, right?

Speaker 1: They're hurting and everything they think they should do to like make things better as making it worse.

Speaker 1: And so, you know, that expression, like, if you're going to tell someone the truth, you better make them laugh because otherwise they'll kill you.

Speaker 2: I haven't heard that, but I like it.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: So one of the first things I do is I got to reflect to the couple, right?

Speaker 1: Look, look who you are together.

Speaker 1: You're both hurting.

Speaker 1: You're both making it worse, right?

Speaker 1: And the way you make it worse is because you're hurting the other person.

Speaker 1: And now they're definitely going to have an even more negative story about you.

Speaker 1: And they're going to be driven to protect themselves from getting hurt with you even more.

Speaker 1: How tragic for both of you.

Speaker 1: But usually at first I got to reflect it to them in a way that's an exaggeration so that it's funny, right?

Speaker 1: So that they see, Oh, would you look at the comic tragedy of this situation?

Speaker 1: And this is the key word that we are in.

Speaker 1: We're not trying to find a bad guy.

Speaker 1: The only reason this disconnection is happening is because we love each other so much.

Speaker 1: And if I can get a couple to live inside of that narrative, we're both hurting and we're both hurting each other because we mean so much to each other.

Speaker 1: Then we can start to make things actually better between them.

Speaker 2: Okay.

Speaker 2: So while I'm processing that, I just want to dive a little bit deeper into some of the things you mentioned.

Speaker 2: You said that generally these disconnections happen because people don't understand themselves.

Speaker 2: They don't understand the system and they don't what love is.

Speaker 2: So that's, I'd like to break down all three of those and get more input on, Oh, sorry.

Speaker 2: More of an explanation, all of them.

Speaker 2: So most people don't understand themselves.

Speaker 2: Let's start with that one.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Well, it might be easier to start with what love is, right?

Speaker 1: But I guess they'll go into both, but I don't mind you.

Speaker 1: Let me just say, so here's what, this is the thing that people don't really understand what love actually is, right?

Speaker 1: Love like is basically, it's the need to be emotionally bonded, right?

Speaker 1: From a biological perspective, right?

Speaker 1: We all need to be what's called attached.

Speaker 1: Being attached means being emotionally bonded.

Speaker 1: All right.

Speaker 1: And so from the cradle, from your first moment, your first need is there's a good enough other on the other side of your birth.

Speaker 1: If there's not a good enough other on the other side of your birth, you will die.

Speaker 1: Like it took millions of years for this particular, you know, model of human to be here.

Speaker 1: But physiologically we're the same.

Speaker 1: We come out into the world, right?

Speaker 1: And we're like, is there someone else here?

Speaker 1: So that a dingo doesn't eat us.

Speaker 1: So your body for the rest of your life is still built to look out in the world and go, is someone here for me to make sure that I'm not going to get eaten?

Speaker 1: And there's two different sides of that.

Speaker 1: One is I don't want to be eaten.

Speaker 1: I need you to be physically emotionally here.

Speaker 1: And the other side is I need to know I'm enough for you.

Speaker 1: So I'm not going to be rejected or shun because like my bum is too shitty and you don't want to wipe it.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: So we got, we got to know that someone there for you and you have the most basic level and you got to know that you're good enough.

Speaker 1: And in your life, even though now you're a grown up, right.

Speaker 1: And you're like, you have an amazing podcast.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: And you're just like, so awesome at being a human being.

Speaker 1: You're incredible dancer, really smart.

Speaker 1: Your body is still the same.

Speaker 1: You're still going to look out in the world and is my person here for me or am I enough for them?

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: And if it looks like the answer is no to that question, you're going to freak out.

Speaker 1: You're still going to freak out.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Okay.

Speaker 1: So that's attachment theory, right?

Speaker 1: We all need to be emotionally bonded from the cradle to the grave.

Speaker 1: Okay.

Speaker 1: Now, so that, how do we apply that to who you are as a human being?

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: So look, love really matters.

Speaker 1: It's the most important thing.

Speaker 1: And this isn't some woo woo, like, you know, look at these beautiful songs.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: We're, that's just how we're built.

Speaker 1: It'll be the last thing to be extracted when we're like merged with AI.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Or like that we have this attachment mechanism inside of us.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: So right now you're in a relationship, you meet someone at a club in Los Angeles and you see them do the moonwalk.

Speaker 1: And you're like, that person's the best moonwalker I've ever seen.

Speaker 1: So you do your worm across the dance floor.

Speaker 1: And they're like, oh my God, I love you.

Speaker 1: And you guys get together because you both look at each other and you're sending these messages going, oh my God, like this person's really here for me.

Speaker 1: And then you look at them and they're like, they're looking at me like I'm really enough for them.

Speaker 1: And you have this great little romance for a day, a week, a month, two years.

Speaker 1: But then eventually at some moment, now that you're so important to each other, you're going to look across when you're doing your worm and they're looking out the window and you're like, wait, wait a second.

Speaker 1: You said you'd always be here.

Speaker 1: Where did you go?

Speaker 1: But then when they hear you say, where did you go?

Speaker 1: They're like, what?

Speaker 1: They just got scared.

Speaker 1: You said I'd always be enough for you.

Speaker 1: I was just having a daydream.

Speaker 1: And now you both scared each other because your emotional bond is so important to each other.

Speaker 1: And you both reacted in a way to protest that that love that you wanted wasn't there.

Speaker 1: And you scared each other some more.

Speaker 1: And then you kept going so fast forward six months.

Speaker 1: I'm just going to do my own shit from now on.

Speaker 1: I don't need anybody.

Speaker 1: And then the other person is sending like self-help books for you to read in the mail because you're such a shit partner because you're off doing your own thing.

Speaker 1: You just continue to ratchet up your protest behavior when you're actually really hurting because you're not emotionally bonded.

Speaker 1: And then here's the punchline.

Speaker 1: And this is the key.

Speaker 1: This is like, so that's awful that these two people are continuing to scare each other.

Speaker 1: But the punchline is, look how sad this is for both of you.

Speaker 1: You're two people that really love each other.

Speaker 1: And the more scared you get that you're not emotionally bonded, you're not attached.

Speaker 1: The more you react with each other in a way that scares the living daylights out of each other.

Speaker 1: This is so sad.

Speaker 1: Imagine that just for a moment, like, you know, you look back at your past relationships, right?

Speaker 1: Imagine you got to sit with someone like me, who's like a pit bull with a locked jaw.

Speaker 1: But if you sit with me, I'm not going to stop getting both of you to live inside that world.

Speaker 1: Now, you can stop.

Speaker 1: I'm not going to stop.

Speaker 1: And if both of you live inside that world I just described, where all of a sudden your limbic systems relax, I'm not actually in the room anymore at a crocodile or a cold stone.

Speaker 1: I'm in the room with another little scared mammal just like me.

Speaker 1: And you know why they're scared?

Speaker 1: Because they're disconnected from me.

Speaker 1: They love the shit out of me, just like I love the shit out of them.

Speaker 1: Now we can make love work.

Speaker 1: So that's the revolutionary part, getting people to see, hey, listen, you're just two little scared mammals because you mean so much to each other.

Speaker 1: Wow, that is.

Speaker 2: I'm not going to lie, Figs, I'm really fucking impressed with that.

Speaker 2: Wow.

Speaker 2: It's a whole new perspective on the relationship paradigm, the perspective that I've...

Speaker 2: I mean, I've heard kind of similar ones, but this one's, wow, very cool.

Speaker 1: Well, Nick, come here.

Speaker 1: It's okay to say.

Speaker 1: And you know those statistics you're saying it doesn't work?

Speaker 1: Who has been introduced to this perspective of what's happening?

Speaker 1: Everybody's living inside a model of relationship, right?

Speaker 1: I'm going to make like gender specific generalizations here for a second, right?

Speaker 1: Man and a woman get together.

Speaker 1: The woman has a story.

Speaker 1: That fucker never showed up for me.

Speaker 1: Fuck him.

Speaker 1: I deserve to be prioritized.

Speaker 1: I'm a queen.

Speaker 1: Guy's like, I'm off to the pub to tell the guys, oh, she's never fucking happy.

Speaker 1: Thank God I got away for a weekend.

Speaker 1: Everybody's been living in this paradigm.

Speaker 1: And like, I'm reinforcing it, that it's like, it's the problem with the other person not prioritizing me.

Speaker 1: It's the problem with the other person never being happy.

Speaker 1: No, listen, you're both locked in a system that is unbelievably tragic and painful for both of you.

Speaker 1: Now, even if let's say a couple wasn't going to be together, I got to get into a place that she doesn't go off to her yoga class and go, I wasn't prioritized again.

Speaker 1: And he doesn't go off to the pub and have an extra two shots to go, you fucking bullshit.

Speaker 1: Both of those stories are a dead end and a disaster for those people.

Speaker 1: But the story I just told you, Hey, listen, I couldn't handle my own reactivity when I didn't feel prioritized and I blamed and criticized.

Speaker 1: And I wasn't able to handle intimacy because I kept thinking I was going to be not enough.

Speaker 1: And we ended up fucking it up.

Speaker 1: Come here.

Speaker 1: No, you come here.

Speaker 1: And we could even part going, Oh, we learned so much about ourselves and that didn't we?

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: And we're better able to make the next one work.

Speaker 2: Yeah, look, I'm sold.

Speaker 2: There is something that yeah, I'd like to discuss with you because it's clear you you're the real deal.

Speaker 2: That's always a concern with me with a podcast, you know, people want to come on and I can only do so much research based on the things I read online or the videos I watch.

Speaker 2: And sometimes they're not the real deal.

Speaker 2: And, you know, I sit there like, you know what I'm talking about?

Speaker 2: I do clearly the real deal.

Speaker 2: Like, you know, I'm all for taking responsibility for personal responsibility.

Speaker 2: I really think that's the pivotal variable in an actualized human being's life is are they have they taken responsibility for themselves?

Speaker 2: You know, my mother who I love to pieces, she is someone she's the consummate victim, she just will not accept that the fact that my father who was a crappy husband and cheated on her and was just an adulterer his whole life.

Speaker 2: She just will not accept that.

Speaker 2: Yeah, she could have left at any time, right?

Speaker 2: Like it's she just doesn't want to just doesn't want to see that she doesn't want to see that that's her responsibility.

Speaker 2: However, I will say like you mentioned something in this intake form, you said like, you just want to be the husband and father, you want to show up as the husband and father like that your wife and kids deserve, right?

Speaker 2: And I respect the hell out of that.

Speaker 2: In relationship, I want to be the best person I can be, I want to make sure the person I'm with feels loved and saved, safe and protected and cherished and all those things.

Speaker 2: But I, and again, this is purely subjective, and it might be due to some of the traumas that I went through.

Speaker 2: So I see society, especially Western society, specifically United States and Britain, to a lesser extent, I see that we've shifted into this kind of very gyno centric model, in which men are invariably blamed for everything that goes wrong in relationships, right?

Speaker 2: Men are pigs, men are misogynists, men never do anything, right?

Speaker 2: Men are insensitive, men are cruel, blah, blah, blah.

Speaker 2: I mean, this is litany of complaints against men.

Speaker 2: And I, I just think that that's bullshit.

Speaker 2: You know, I think that I agree.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I think that most men, and obviously, there are exceptions, but most men are fully committed to showing up and being the best versions of themselves.

Speaker 2: And that we have this sense of entitlement amongst women these days that men are expected to be this list of things and get everything right and never make any kind of mistakes.

Speaker 2: And you wouldn't I first read that, oh, you want you want to show up as the best husband and father for your wife and kids.

Speaker 2: The first thing that flashed up in my mind is like, are your your wife and kids showing up as the best wife and kids for you?

Speaker 1: That was my kids.

Speaker 1: No, right?

Speaker 1: Like, they're the bosses, right?

Speaker 1: But come here.

Speaker 1: Let me speak to this.

Speaker 1: Is that okay?

Speaker 2: Let me speak.

Speaker 2: Yeah, of course.

Speaker 1: I love what you're saying.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: So I agree that look, men are fucking awesome.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: And actually, probably one of the most healing things about doing this work has been my relationship with men in general, and guy friends in my life.

Speaker 1: I has improved dramatically, because I've gotten to see men as really beautiful people, not just oh, you're emotionally not available.

Speaker 1: You just want to do your like fantasy football league, whatever, right?

Speaker 1: It's bullshit.

Speaker 1: So there's a little story I made, right?

Speaker 1: Here's the crazy thing.

Speaker 1: It's an easier journey for in this type of couples counseling, let's say the man, right, or the person that is seen as the bad one, the one that hasn't got emotional intelligence, the one that's not showing up enough, right?

Speaker 1: It let's say if a couple is in that dynamic, and the other person most likely a woman, but not always is the one that I'm really good.

Speaker 1: And I'm the one that's trying, why aren't you prioritizing me?

Speaker 2: Right?

Speaker 1: Valid feelings, by the way, not mocking them, right?

Speaker 1: Because they're coming from a really deep primary place in both of them.

Speaker 1: Here's the crazy thing.

Speaker 1: The person that thinks they're going to ace couples counseling, the one that usually I'm actually already know my feelings, and I can share them easily.

Speaker 1: They're probably going to have a harder time at first, the person that's supposedly the shit one, right?

Speaker 1: Often the man, they'll actually have an easier time because just think about everything I said, right?

Speaker 1: Let's say what the offer is, but you know, here's what I'm offering, right?

Speaker 1: You guys love each other.

Speaker 1: That's why you fight.

Speaker 1: And it's both of you, right?

Speaker 1: And so here's the analogy or little story I made up, right?

Speaker 1: So imagine this couple lives in an apartment building, the woman, right?

Speaker 1: You know, from like, live most of my life in San Francisco.

Speaker 1: So anytime I'm just doing man woman, I get nervous, right?

Speaker 1: But let's say in this heteronormative story, right?

Speaker 1: The woman lives in the penthouse of the building, right?

Speaker 1: She's up there on her own sipping cosmopolitans looking across town or other women in the penthouse apartments.

Speaker 1: They're so good, but they're alone because their partners are shit, right?

Speaker 1: And the world validates them for that, right?

Speaker 1: I should be loved more.

Speaker 1: But again, let me just get a shout out to those people.

Speaker 1: Listen, that's valid pain because they're in real deep attachment, bonding terror that I'm alone and you're not here.

Speaker 1: They're not being bad people.

Speaker 1: That's just how they protest when they're scared.

Speaker 1: Okay.

Speaker 1: So they're alone in that like penthouse.

Speaker 1: The man is down in the basement.

Speaker 1: Look, the room he lives in wasn't even supposed to be living quarters.

Speaker 1: It's a janitorial fucking suite.

Speaker 1: It's got brooms and mops.

Speaker 1: And he's down there like with his little fucking like iPhone watching Netflix.

Speaker 1: Like I'm not coming out of here because I'm already shit.

Speaker 1: Why would I come out to find out I'm even more shit?

Speaker 1: And then I come along and say, Hey, listen, I'm going to help you guys.

Speaker 1: Here's what we're going to do.

Speaker 1: I'm going to create a well-appointed apartment in the middle of the building.

Speaker 1: In the middle of the building where both of you can live together, right?

Speaker 1: Where look, both of you the way like, look, I'm staying down here.

Speaker 1: No, I'm up here alone.

Speaker 1: You fucker.

Speaker 1: Right?

Speaker 1: Look, both of you are making it worse on live in the middle of the building where it's like, it's both of you that create this, this connection.

Speaker 1: It is an easier journey to go from the basement to a well-appointed apartment where, hold on a second.

Speaker 1: I'm not just the bad one.

Speaker 1: It's both of us.

Speaker 1: Then it is to come down from the penthouse.

Speaker 1: Now getting that person down from the penthouse is the best thing I can do to help them.

Speaker 1: The only reason they're blaming bitch and complain.

Speaker 1: And as they're terrified, cause they love that person down in the basement so much.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Only reason they're doing it.

Speaker 1: And the only reason the fella is down in the basement is look, it hurts so much when I'm a disappointment.

Speaker 1: I am actually doing my best.

Speaker 1: Please.

Speaker 1: Can I have a passing grade?

Speaker 1: I don't even need an A.

Speaker 1: Just let me pass.

Speaker 1: So you can imagine he's already like one meeting, the guy that would be sitting there, right?

Speaker 1: Like I don't fucking know about this couples counseling thing.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: He's like, I'm in, I'm not going to be the bad guy anymore.

Speaker 1: And, but she might be a little, wait a second.

Speaker 1: I thought we were here to change him.

Speaker 1: This is starting to sound.

Speaker 2: Anyway.

Speaker 1: So look, this is the, the crazy thing is I agree.

Speaker 1: It is not all the men's fault.

Speaker 1: It's not that they're bad.

Speaker 1: And the other thing that blows me away, men actually have amazing access to their internal experience.

Speaker 1: They just need a lot more space.

Speaker 1: They just need a bit more space.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 2: So this comes back to another example that I was going to cite, you know, the, the, is this narrative in the modern world that men are terrible communicators and women are better at communication than men.

Speaker 2: And, you know, after a lot of deep introspection and analysis of that, I've realized that that's just bullshit.

Speaker 2: It's just, it's just a lie.

Speaker 2: It's a lie.

Speaker 2: In fact, it's the complete opposite.

Speaker 2: For example, if a man has a problem with another man, what do we do?

Speaker 2: We go confront the guy.

Speaker 2: We say, Hey dude, what's the deal?

Speaker 2: What's what's going on.

Speaker 2: Right.

Speaker 2: And we talk it out or we fight it out to whatever it might be what we deal with it there.

Speaker 2: And then every man listening to this, every single man listening to this, including you has experienced their partner being angry with them and just giving them the silent treatment and expecting them to know what they did wrong.

Speaker 2: Right.

Speaker 2: And I remember specifically, I was with a partner once and she said to me, I was trying to figure it out.

Speaker 2: I was like, Hey, let's discuss this thing.

Speaker 2: Let's get to the bottom of it.

Speaker 2: And it's not a rational thing.

Speaker 2: And then I was like, okay, so what you're telling me is you're expecting me to understand this thing coming from you.

Speaker 2: That's not rational or logical.

Speaker 2: And I'm a rational, logical human being that like, I moved through the world using rational and logic, you know, like if it's rainy outside, I put on a rain coat, right.

Speaker 2: If I don't know, I cut my foot, I logically deduce that it's bleeding.

Speaker 2: I've got to stop the bleeding.

Speaker 2: Right.

Speaker 2: Like that's, that's the way like a human being that succeeds on this physical plane moves through the world.

Speaker 2: And you're telling me that I've just got to intuit and understand why something I've done has upset you or why you're upset without any verbal communication.

Speaker 2: And then you're holding me to that standard and woman, yeah, they have this, this gift or this gift might even be a strong word, but they have this ability to just generally like sense and intuit things in a way men can't, but then to hold us to that standard, I think that's just bullshit.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Well, so let me tell you what I would do in that scenario.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: So, so here's what I would look at it is both of you make sense.

Speaker 1: Everybody always makes sense.

Speaker 1: Like, this is the other thing.

Speaker 1: Everyone always makes sense.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: So here's what I hear.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: And it may not be exactly this because you just told me the story, but this is probably what's going on.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Deep down inside, she feels alone that she can't really connect with you, even though you might be talking, like, I just can't feel like he's really here.

Speaker 1: I can't quite feel Nick.

Speaker 1: I want to like eat him.

Speaker 1: I just, but I can't get him.

Speaker 1: So anytime she feels like that, she's hurting inside.

Speaker 1: So she tried to explain it to you.

Speaker 1: Like she, you don't respond the way she wants you to.

Speaker 1: And at some point she lets you know, explicitly or implicitly, she's disappointed in you that she can't connect with you.

Speaker 1: Like, and in this case, let's say she's eventually look, I'm not even going to bother trying to tell you because you should know already that lands as criticism telling you you're not good enough.

Speaker 1: It hurts you.

Speaker 1: And then you go into hyper rational mode.

Speaker 1: Like, look, explain to me what the hell is going on now.

Speaker 1: Now she's like, whoa, he's definitely not here, even though you're engaging more.

Speaker 1: So she gets more scared and she's like, look, there's no point even explaining to you.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Which puts you down even more.

Speaker 1: So you feel even not enough, more powerless.

Speaker 1: And now you're going to tell her you're not even rational.

Speaker 1: Look at what you're doing now.

Speaker 1: She's like, oh, Jesus, if I was scared, he wasn't here.

Speaker 1: This is really terrifying.

Speaker 1: My God, he's not the person that loves me.

Speaker 1: And so she's going to give up or criticize you even more.

Speaker 1: And so you both end up getting more hurt.

Speaker 1: You both end up reacting in ways that are making it worse.

Speaker 1: And so I'll get both of you to live.

Speaker 1: Hey, listen, can you see what's happening between the two of you?

Speaker 1: You poor little, poor little devils.

Speaker 1: You poor little devils.

Speaker 1: The only reason this happened is you just really want to connect.

Speaker 1: And when you don't connect, you get scared and you end up criticizing him.

Speaker 1: You didn't even mean to criticize him.

Speaker 1: You thought you were just giving him some helpful advice.

Speaker 1: Could you not just like feel what I'm feeling?

Speaker 1: But it actually lands like criticism.

Speaker 1: It hurts him.

Speaker 1: And now he's going to come back and defend himself.

Speaker 1: Oh, Jesus, guys, this is so sad for both of you.

Speaker 1: Now, imagine again if I got both of you to live and that's what's happening.

Speaker 1: Both of you are right.

Speaker 1: No one's wrong.

Speaker 1: And it's only happening because you love each other.

Speaker 1: So we don't have to make the she's wrong, you're wrong dead end.

Speaker 1: If you play the battle of who's right or who's wrong, everybody loses.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 2: OK, well, let's segue off from that.

Speaker 2: I appreciate that.

Speaker 2: I appreciate your perspective.

Speaker 2: It's making me reconsider.

Speaker 2: It hasn't.

Speaker 1: Yeah, I told you I'm a pitbull.

Speaker 1: It's a first time.

Speaker 1: It isn't.

Speaker 1: By the way, when I trained therapists and they come back and we go figs, I did it and it didn't work.

Speaker 1: I'm like, it didn't work.

Speaker 1: I'm going to do that 40 times an hour for 20 hours.

Speaker 1: I don't expect it to work the first time your brain is wired to see it this way over a lifetime of being hurt.

Speaker 1: I come along and reflect to you a story that you could actually be safe and connection one time.

Speaker 1: It's not going to work.

Speaker 1: I'm going to have to do this over and over again.

Speaker 2: Sure, sure.

Speaker 2: I agree.

Speaker 2: So I wanted to ask you for maybe three to five specific action steps that people could take or incorporate into the relationship so they could see the power and efficacy of your work.

Speaker 2: Let's start.

Speaker 2: Let's use that as one of them.

Speaker 2: Let's say a man is with a woman who is constantly saying or doing things that imply that she's not being heard or seen.

Speaker 2: And he is really doing his very best to make sure she's feeling heard or seen.

Speaker 2: But for some reason, there's this disconnect.

Speaker 2: What would you say is an appropriate or an effective way for that man to counter that or to solve that?

Speaker 1: Well, look, here's the thing.

Speaker 1: It's a three legged race.

Speaker 1: Here's the good news, bad news.

Speaker 1: It's a three legged race.

Speaker 1: You know, like if you're doing a three legged race, you can't have one person here.

Speaker 1: I'll put the tire around my race and run it.

Speaker 1: No, you're already disqualified.

Speaker 1: We need both.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: By the way, real downside of my business model, I can't really sell to one person.

Speaker 1: I need both people.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: If we're going to change the system, we need all the parts of the system.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: So where's the most important thing is that you start to change your mind that it's always a system.

Speaker 1: If I'm hurting, they're hurting.

Speaker 1: Just even just if you just believe this, even if you can't see it, if I'm feeling like shit, they're feeling like shit.

Speaker 1: If I have a negative judgment of them, they have a negative judgment of me.

Speaker 1: And we both make sense.

Speaker 1: It's always both of you.

Speaker 1: Always.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Now, you might have to reverse engineer into the truth of that.

Speaker 1: But like the story I just gave you, the only reason she's saying like, you know, whatever she's saying, you're not here for me the way I want you to be is because she's scared inside.

Speaker 1: Guaranteed.

Speaker 1: The only reason you now have this story of like, I'm never happy.

Speaker 1: It's supposed to end like rationality isn't like needed.

Speaker 1: That's the way I live my life.

Speaker 1: The only reason you're saying that shit is you feel awful inside to not be accepted by the other person.

Speaker 1: So it's always a system.

Speaker 1: Always both of you.

Speaker 2: OK, so let's let's say now I'm with this knowledge that you've just shared with me.

Speaker 2: If a woman that I was with started to display those characteristics, I would then logically deduce she doesn't feel safe.

Speaker 2: She's not connecting with me.

Speaker 2: And I would sit her down.

Speaker 2: And because my word means a lot to me and I only speak what I mean, I would say, look, I understand that you do not feel safe and I want you to know that you are safe.

Speaker 1: OK, slow down.

Speaker 1: Let me stop you here.

Speaker 1: No.

Speaker 1: Yeah, let's tell you why.

Speaker 2: But you understand how like to a rational, sane person, it would seem like.

Speaker 1: Yeah, but this is where we got to accept reality.

Speaker 1: Just let me run the scenario.

Speaker 1: This is like a kid like is scared.

Speaker 1: There's a monster under the bed and you come in.

Speaker 1: You say you're a father, right?

Speaker 1: And your kid, there's a monster under the bed.

Speaker 1: There's a monster in the bed.

Speaker 1: And you come in and say, son, there is no monster under the bed.

Speaker 1: You must go back to sleep.

Speaker 1: You should not be scared.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Did you meet your son's needs?

Speaker 1: But you actually stopped me before I was finished.

Speaker 2: The second thing I got over the second.

Speaker 2: And I agree.

Speaker 2: First of all, that was a good counterpoint.

Speaker 2: The second part I would say is I want you to say I want you to know that you are safe.

Speaker 2: I'm telling you, you are safe.

Speaker 2: What else could I do to make you feel safe?

Speaker 1: Great.

Speaker 2: That's great.

Speaker 1: What else could you.

Speaker 1: But here's the first thing.

Speaker 1: This is the weird thing, right?

Speaker 1: The first thing we have to do with human beings.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: And no one gets it right.

Speaker 1: The first time we usually get a chance to get it right.

Speaker 1: Like I don't get it right.

Speaker 1: My wife, my wife says I'm really sad right now.

Speaker 1: And I say, would you like a sandwich?

Speaker 1: Did I meet her?

Speaker 1: I'm like, I try and come up with a solution.

Speaker 1: Do you want to go for a walk?

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Like and then I see like, hey, listen, figs, I just told you I'm sad.

Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, wait, I got it.

Speaker 1: Like that was enough of a prompt that I'm failing to get it right.

Speaker 1: So the first thing we have to do is accept the other person's experience.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: And then validate their experience.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Be with them in where they are right now.

Speaker 1: Not try.

Speaker 1: See, this is the thing.

Speaker 1: And this is a really hard one, especially for men.

Speaker 1: We want to say we want.

Speaker 1: Yeah, we want to get we want to move from here to somewhere that it isn't bad.

Speaker 1: And men have to tolerate being in bad.

Speaker 1: We've got to grow our ability like let's go to the gym and tolerate everything right now is an OK and be with the person.

Speaker 1: And by the way, this is how it'll get to OK much quicker.

Speaker 1: So let's say again, your girlfriend says like, look, I'm really sad right now.

Speaker 1: I'm not feeling safe.

Speaker 1: I don't feel connected to you.

Speaker 1: Ideally.

Speaker 1: Now, again, no one does this right the first time because it's going to feel really bad.

Speaker 1: You're going to try.

Speaker 1: I do.

Speaker 1: You are safe.

Speaker 1: I do love you.

Speaker 1: What are you talking about?

Speaker 1: How is this not enough?

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: And then eventually you'll see that didn't work.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: And so hopefully that's enough ago.

Speaker 1: What did Fig say?

Speaker 1: Oh, shit.

Speaker 1: That's right.

Speaker 1: I'm going to try and like be with look, I accept you're sad.

Speaker 1: It must be terrible to feel not connected to me, especially when I know how being connected to me is so important.

Speaker 1: Oh, sweetie, how awful that you're so sad right now.

Speaker 1: I'm actually going to accept and validate their experience, be with them, not try and fix it and change it.

Speaker 1: Like this is the crazy thing.

Speaker 1: Every time you it's this is going to sound terribly dramatic if someone is sad and you try and change their experience.

Speaker 1: Let's say the person that's sad is an actual person.

Speaker 1: You've actually told the sad one, fuck off.

Speaker 1: I want this other person.

Speaker 2: Invalidated the way they feel, basically.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: You want to you want to change them into something else.

Speaker 1: And the sad one.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: The you know, the not safe one has heard your attempt to fix it as you're trying to get rid of me.

Speaker 1: And so, of course, they're going to protest.

Speaker 1: No, listen, you're not getting it.

Speaker 1: So all your attempts to fix it makes things worse.

Speaker 1: OK, I agree.

Speaker 2: That sounds like a very logical explanation.

Speaker 2: What came to me while you were describing it is if we accept the evolutionary theory that this was this is a million pair bonding response that's been crafted over millions of years.

Speaker 2: Why is it so fucking ineffective?

Speaker 2: Why do we have to have guys like you come and decode the whole thing for us?

Speaker 2: Why didn't we evolve like a better way of communicating with each other?

Speaker 1: Well, yeah, but like when you say it's so ineffective, I mean, it's a really good question, firstly.

Speaker 1: I mean, it's a really good question.

Speaker 1: Why is it so difficult?

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: You know, I don't know, really.

Speaker 1: I'm not sure I have a great answer.

Speaker 2: Yeah, what a great.

Speaker 1: I mean, that's I have to think about that, you know.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 2: I say to myself, if I ever meet if there is a God that's like takes on some sort of anthropomorphic form that I could have a discussion with and I meet him or her one day, that will be the first question I ask is like, why did you make it so fucking complicated and difficult?

Speaker 2: Like, why couldn't just be like, yeah, you meet someone, you fall in love with them and it's happily ever after.

Speaker 2: Why do they have to be all these like hoops to jump through and things to change about yourself and compromises to make?

Speaker 2: And it's like, and this is something I said to a very close mentor of mine.

Speaker 2: I said, like, look, as a man, right.

Speaker 2: Like, okay.

Speaker 2: I said to him, sell it to me here.

Speaker 2: I'm a man.

Speaker 2: I'm a reasonably attractive man.

Speaker 2: I don't find it difficult to meet woman.

Speaker 2: Like this, there's two options in front of me.

Speaker 2: One, I could just sleep with a new woman of Tinder every, every week.

Speaker 2: You know, I could have my bachelor life, you know, like no, no complications, no problems and get my physical needs met every week by a new one.

Speaker 2: Or the other side of it, the other path is, yeah, you have a relationship, right.

Speaker 2: In which you have one woman and you're exclusive to her.

Speaker 2: And you then start to make all these compromises and deal with all these things.

Speaker 2: And sure there are positive things, you know, there's a certain level of intimacy that comes along with it.

Speaker 2: And I said to him, like, I don't know, dude, it's like, it's a tough sell for me.

Speaker 2: Like, I mean, and he, and he said, yeah, it is worth it.

Speaker 2: He said like the depth of love and intimacy that you can find is worth it.

Speaker 2: And I still like to believe that.

Speaker 2: I still want to believe that.

Speaker 2: So I guess what I'd ask you Figgs is, can you sell it to me?

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Well, well, so here's where, you know, you're saying that it's so painful here, here's, and there's, it's such a heavy price.

Speaker 1: I think we got to start with the frame.

Speaker 1: And as I was saying, remember, like, like people don't really understand what love is.

Speaker 1: Love is not feeling just so amazing with each other.

Speaker 1: That's a benefit of love, but ultimately love is these, there's just these, these two simple equations, right?

Speaker 1: You're so important to me when it looks like you're not there for me, I get scared.

Speaker 1: Like if I have two people that come into my office and one of them feels you're so important, like I interpret everything they're saying is, oh, this person, the relationship is so important.

Speaker 1: The other person is so important that every time it looks like they're not a priority, they're not cared for, they're not special to that person.

Speaker 1: They get scared inside.

Speaker 1: So this is the weird thing.

Speaker 1: It's the negative feelings that indicate that they're in love, right?

Speaker 1: Like, like long-term attachment, love, not romantic, you know, Barry White music playing love, right?

Speaker 1: Okay.

Speaker 1: So the other, the other equation is you're so important to me that when it looks like I'm a disappointment to you, I'm in pain.

Speaker 1: I'm devastated inside.

Speaker 1: Now, both of those people, then because they, every single day, they're trying to move away from accepting.

Speaker 1: That's what love is.

Speaker 1: It's like, we're so important to each other.

Speaker 1: We hurt when it looks like the other person isn't giving us what we need, right?

Speaker 1: If two people accepted that, then they can celebrate that.

Speaker 1: I know this sounds weird.

Speaker 1: It's like, Matt, look, so look, you're next time you're in relationship.

Speaker 1: Let's say you one day lived inside this model, right?

Speaker 1: Here's what your work would be.

Speaker 1: No offense, Nick, you said you were going to ask me tough questions.

Speaker 1: I'm going to ask you a tough question.

Speaker 1: I'll tell you what your work would be.

Speaker 1: You have been really hurt in love and relationship, your primary relationship, relationships with other people.

Speaker 1: Your primary work is to drop, go from your, the way you protect yourself, protest being hurt, have limiting beliefs, like imaginal structures, right?

Speaker 1: Belief structures, right?

Speaker 1: And you come to the world from that place.

Speaker 1: But the only reason they're there is right underneath that part of you.

Speaker 1: There's a little boy who's really hurting and it's really desperate when it looks like there's no way for me to be enough.

Speaker 1: He's the one that has to be in relationship.

Speaker 1: Now, if you do that work, you will end up, and now this part, there is no scientific proof for this part, right?

Speaker 1: So you can, I totally up for you calling bullshit on this part.

Speaker 1: Let's say you move yourself from a nine out of 10 to a five out of 10.

Speaker 1: Have I been wounded about not being enough and it's not safe to be in relationship?

Speaker 1: Fuck them.

Speaker 1: My heart's not safe, right?

Speaker 1: You go from a nine out of 10 to a five out of 10.

Speaker 1: You will fucking attract someone who's a five out of 10 of like, you're not here for me, but I'm not going to freak out.

Speaker 1: I'll just reach out and hold your hand because I just got scared you weren't there.

Speaker 1: Oh, I was so funny when you squeezed my hand, I got a little scared that you were disappointed in me.

Speaker 1: Look how much we mean to each other.

Speaker 1: Squeeze, big hug, little rub of the noses.

Speaker 1: We should go to 7-Eleven and buy the most expensive bottle of champagne they have because look, we just got scared again because we love each other.

Speaker 1: So it would take both.

Speaker 1: Let's say you right now, you're most likely going to attract a nine out of 10 and I'm not sure if you're here for me and you're like, you're fucking disappointed in me already.

Speaker 1: Fuck you.

Speaker 1: No, fuck you, right?

Speaker 1: Okay.

Speaker 1: Well, we need to help both of you calm the fuck down.

Speaker 1: You both are hurt.

Speaker 1: You're both scared the worst thing that ever happened to you is going to happen again, but you both hold the key for what you, yourself and the other person needs, which is a loving repair and my nervous system and limbic system is safe now.

Speaker 1: This is the crazy thing.

Speaker 1: We only have to heal the present moment.

Speaker 1: Everybody wants to heal the future or the past.

Speaker 1: We only have to solve this moment and that's what makes couples work so powerful.

Speaker 1: We don't just talk about it.

Speaker 1: The two of you are like, I do everything on video.

Speaker 1: You're literally there right now.

Speaker 1: We can fucking create the deepest healing in both of you as individuals right now.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Anyway, sorry.

Speaker 1: You got me pumped up.

Speaker 1: You said you're going to ask me hard questions.

Speaker 1: I went full Irish.

Speaker 1: No, I'm a drunkard.

Speaker 2: Figs, if I didn't have another podcast schedule to record right after this one, I would speak to you for easily another hour.

Speaker 2: You're clearly the real deal.

Speaker 2: There's no doubt about it.

Speaker 2: You've confirmed several things that other extraordinarily intelligent people have postulated and shared with me and also illuminated some aspects of relationships that I didn't understand.

Speaker 2: And I'm greatly, greatly appreciative for your time.

Speaker 1: Nick, I really love talking to you and thank you.

Speaker 1: I really appreciate you really engaging with me like this.

Speaker 1: Like you said, not just like, you know, letting us have a bit of banter.

Speaker 1: Yeah, no, we weren't typical Californians.

Speaker 1: We didn't just validate each other.

Speaker 1: It's better that way.

Speaker 1: It's more authentic that way.

Speaker 1: Thanks a lot, Figs.

Speaker 1: Thank you, Nick.

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