Speaker 1: And then I feel really alone with everything that I do.

Speaker 2: I have no models.

Speaker 2: I'm a son of an alcoholic.

Speaker 2: I don't know.

Speaker 2: Successful relationships.

Speaker 1: Let me be here to say to you.

Speaker 1: Did you get hurt too?

Speaker 1: You come here to me.

Speaker 1: So yeah, this is our first time recording our podcast live.

Speaker 1: So bear with us, right?

Speaker 1: We're, um, no, we're gen, we're gen Xers, right?

Speaker 1: We're not boomers.

Speaker 1: Thank God.

Speaker 2: No, we're not boomers.

Speaker 2: Despite my teenage daughter, always accusing me of being a boomer.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 2: We are all gen X.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: We are gen Xers.

Speaker 1: So we're not internet natives.

Speaker 1: So forgive us where we're like, what do we do?

Speaker 1: We're live recording a podcast.

Speaker 1: So just for all of you that have never heard of us before, I'm Figgs.

Speaker 1: I'm the founder of empathy.com.

Speaker 1: Couples therapist, relationship expert, supposedly.

Speaker 1: Don't ask my wife.

Speaker 1: She would completely disagree.

Speaker 1: And I'm joined today by amazing therapist on our team.

Speaker 1: Karen Gordon.

Speaker 1: Welcome, Karen.

Speaker 1: Hi, Figgs.

Speaker 1: Good to have you with us.

Speaker 1: And just for a little context, what we're going to do today is trying to answer a listener's specific question about what they're dealing with in their relationship.

Speaker 1: And we're going to try and use much of the wisdom that we described kind of more on or you call it academically.

Speaker 1: But we kind of went through in the last two episodes with the couples therapy work series about what attachment theory is and what systems theory is.

Speaker 1: And so this will be the first time we're going to then try and apply those two main pillars of our work on how we help couples to a specific problem of a listener.

Speaker 1: So it's kind of exciting.

Speaker 1: And we're going to do our best like it was, you know, we're therapists.

Speaker 1: We can blab on forever because we're always listening.

Speaker 1: No one listens to us.

Speaker 1: So what we're going to try and do is be a bit more like, you know, condensed and get to the meat of it.

Speaker 1: And so Karen do shut me up.

Speaker 1: If I start telling stories about when I was eight on the farm chasing bulls, I've already started.

Speaker 2: But that's part of your charm.

Speaker 1: Why?

Speaker 1: No.

Speaker 1: Well, thank you.

Speaker 1: I get away with it in America and Ireland.

Speaker 1: If I start telling the stories about me chasing bulls, they're like, okay, listen, stop.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: We're not Americans.

Speaker 1: We don't want to hear anymore.

Speaker 1: And then by the way, we also have staff who's our podcast producer, who is not Gen X.

Speaker 1: So they actually know what they're doing.

Speaker 1: Thank you, Steph.

Speaker 1: So she'll help us out.

Speaker 1: If there's any questions from you that are listening live to make sure we don't miss them.

Speaker 1: But, um, but let's see anything I missed.

Speaker 1: And just setting up the context for today.

Speaker 1: Karen.

Speaker 2: No, perfect.

Speaker 2: We're just taking the theory and we're putting it into practice.

Speaker 1: Could you tell me I'm perfect again?

Speaker 1: Just to settle my nerves.

Speaker 1: Okay.

Speaker 1: That was way too intimate.

Speaker 1: Now I'm getting, it has to be, it has to be perfect again inside a very narrow band that it's like.

Speaker 2: You're going to kick ass and you're doing great.

Speaker 2: You're doing so great.

Speaker 1: You were almost too loving there that I got scared, but okay.

Speaker 1: Thank you.

Speaker 1: But so come here.

Speaker 1: What, what is our listeners specific question that they're dealing with in their relationship?

Speaker 2: Yes.

Speaker 2: And we have, there are so many to choose from, but this one I thought would be a great first one for us to do, because I see this so frequently in my own practice.

Speaker 2: It's just a very common issue that people have.

Speaker 2: So this listener is saying that her partner works too much.

Speaker 2: And he works to a point where when they're having dinner, either at home or they're out at a restaurant, or maybe they're on a hike or they're in the car together.

Speaker 2: He's checking his texts.

Speaker 2: He's checking his emails and he's responding in the middle of time.

Speaker 2: That's supposed to be kind of designated time for the two of them to be together.

Speaker 2: So sometimes this specific listener is saying it even happens when I'm in the middle of the sentence.

Speaker 2: I'm in the middle of a sentence.

Speaker 2: And then he just interrupts and looks down at his phone and starts responding to a text from.

Speaker 1: Hey, wait, wait, wait.

Speaker 1: This is a setup.

Speaker 1: Is this, is this listener Teal, my wife.

Speaker 1: Wait a second.

Speaker 1: This is a total setup.

Speaker 1: This is like, what is this?

Speaker 1: An intervention?

Speaker 1: Like, come on.

Speaker 1: Yeah, I know.

Speaker 1: Yeah, this is actually, this one is feeling way too familiar.

Speaker 1: I'm getting hotter, but go on.

Speaker 1: I didn't mean to drop it.

Speaker 2: And you know what?

Speaker 2: Same for me because I'm guilty of it too with my daughter.

Speaker 2: She accuses me of this all the time.

Speaker 2: And just to say at the very beginning that even though this is kind of a, this is a woman talking about her husband.

Speaker 2: This issue could also be a husband complaining about his wife or, you know, anything, anything like that.

Speaker 1: Got it.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: So let me just make sure I get it right.

Speaker 1: So the listener is basically look.

Speaker 1: My husband, she's a woman and the listeners like you, my husband.

Speaker 1: Is constantly working, prioritizing work in a given present moment over being with me.

Speaker 1: And like, yeah, that, that makes sense.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: That would really, that would really hurt.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: I mean, I can totally get how like one could feel not prioritized, right.

Speaker 1: Not like actually valued if your, your spouse or partner was basically, you know, constantly choosing anything else.

Speaker 1: And especially like something like work over spending quality, you know, time with you.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: And then where it's being interrupted in these micro levels, like, you know, checking the phone, getting back to a text.

Speaker 1: Like I could not only not feeling prioritized, really loved, valued, right.

Speaker 1: Like that I'm important to you.

Speaker 1: I could also imagine that someone would feel like desperate, right.

Speaker 1: That it could be interrupted.

Speaker 1: Like even when you are here at any second, you're like your top priority work or your phone, whatever like is going to take you away from me.

Speaker 2: Right.

Speaker 2: Right.

Speaker 2: Like even though we're in physical space with each other and this is supposed to be time we're spending together.

Speaker 2: I actually don't really matter to you as much as work.

Speaker 2: And you're willing to abandon this moment to, to prioritize work at any given moment.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: So look, that sounds really hard.

Speaker 1: So let me just like, here's the way I think through it.

Speaker 1: And this is what, you know, we'd want to how we would try and help this listener is.

Speaker 1: So there's an unmet love need and what's the unmet love me now we're doing a little, you know, we'll hopefully they'll give us some feedback.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: We know a flavor of the unmet love need is some, we know like it's something about not being prioritized.

Speaker 1: I'm not special to you.

Speaker 1: Important to you.

Speaker 1: Like I long for us to be together.

Speaker 1: I want togetherness.

Speaker 2: Are you really here with me?

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Like we're, you are with me.

Speaker 1: That is a primary love need.

Speaker 1: And when that's not happening, there's an assumption I'm making.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: But I think it's a fair assumption, right.

Speaker 1: Given the fact that she is a human being, right.

Speaker 1: She's not artificial intelligence yet.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: That basically that actually leads her to have a vulnerable feeling inside, whether she feels sad, deep sense of loss, grief or the connection we used to have powerlessness.

Speaker 1: And by the way, like I'm, I'm doing conjecture, but obviously we're talking to her specifically.

Speaker 1: We're trying to get that from her first, not just use conjecture.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: That there must be some vulnerable feeling.

Speaker 1: And the next part of that would be what I would be imagining.

Speaker 1: Deep down inside that she could actually feel kind of bad about herself.

Speaker 2: Right.

Speaker 1: You know, so that, that would be the, this is the assumption I'd have is, Ooh, nothing prioritized.

Speaker 1: We're not together.

Speaker 1: That's the longing.

Speaker 1: When that's not there, it must really hurt.

Speaker 1: And it probably could add a negative story of self, right.

Speaker 1: That I'm not enough or too much for you to actually spend time with me.

Speaker 2: Exactly.

Speaker 2: And so when somebody brings the problem of like, here's the issue is he works too much and it's really annoying or it's really obnoxious or I don't appreciate it.

Speaker 2: Like they're so focused on the thing that their partner is doing that they don't like.

Speaker 2: And our job is all the stuff that you just said.

Speaker 2: There's no expectation from us that a listener right now is going to be able to access all of those feelings for themselves.

Speaker 2: That's what we do as couples therapists is we help them to flush all that out, to figure out what is the attachment need?

Speaker 2: What is the emotion that you're feeling?

Speaker 1: That's brilliant, Karen.

Speaker 1: I really glad that you jumped in and said that because yeah, the first thing most likely, if that's the scenario, let's say, you know, that's the painting they're living in.

Speaker 1: Husband prioritizes work they're on their phone, right.

Speaker 1: That they're in a lot of suffering, but most likely they're not fully embodied or embedded in the way it's a vulnerable experience.

Speaker 1: They're more likely to be in the, ah, this isn't the way it's supposed to be.

Speaker 1: Who knows how this particular listener expresses that, whether they shut down or they, you know, they get their own interests or whether they they're a bitch or complain or like, you know, totally understand, criticize or advice giver.

Speaker 1: But I would expect that they would have a negative story of the local Dan prioritizing work they're on their phone.

Speaker 1: Don't they know that phones at the dinner is bad.

Speaker 1: And so they'd be protesting the way they're not feeling prioritized, right.

Speaker 1: In some way.

Speaker 1: And they'd have a secondary emotion.

Speaker 1: They'd be frustrated and annoyed, um, you know, and that obviously having a negative view of the other person.

Speaker 1: But then, so we, the assumption that it would have is to try and see all of that, right.

Speaker 1: And then validate, of course, you would be frustrated.

Speaker 1: You'd be annoyed.

Speaker 1: You'd have this negative story, prioritize and work.

Speaker 1: You can't even have a dinner without the phone buzzing and I'm checking it.

Speaker 1: That totally makes sense.

Speaker 2: And they might even be saying that to their partner, like, oh yeah, you got a text.

Speaker 2: You got to check your text again, like making snide comments or noticing that they're checking their texts.

Speaker 2: And then suddenly they're, they just become aloof and sort of shut down.

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 1: So let's, again, it's a big assumption, but let's just say it makes, we'll make the assumption that's what they do, that they explicitly or implicitly let their partner spouse know that I'm really disappointed in you.

Speaker 1: That's your prioritizing work, right?

Speaker 1: So the action is sharing disappointment, whether they're doing it on purpose or not.

Speaker 1: The secondary emotion they're having is I'm frustrated with you.

Speaker 1: And the negative view of the other person would be like, look, you're an uncaring, unprioritizing person, right?

Speaker 1: So now the first thing, the weird thing we'd want to do is we actually want to validate that that actually makes sense that you'd have a negative view of your partner.

Speaker 1: Of course, it's frustrating.

Speaker 1: And no wonder you tell them like, Hey, get your act together and stop texting when we're in the middle of a date.

Speaker 1: This is so inappropriate.

Speaker 1: Totally makes sense.

Speaker 1: You're frustrated.

Speaker 1: You have that negative view.

Speaker 1: Of course, texting like a dinner is wrong.

Speaker 1: And I get why you would let them know specifically why they're a disappointment that they just can't stop doing it.

Speaker 1: So the first thing that we're going to validate, validate, validate that that totally makes sense.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Anything you would add to that character?

Speaker 2: Yeah, we totally, it totally makes sense that it would hurt your feelings.

Speaker 2: It totally makes sense that when you get hurt like that, the only thing you know how to do is criticize them or make some, some sort of passive aggressive comment or just flat out say like, can you please get off your phone?

Speaker 2: But you might say it in such a way that it's laced with criticism.

Speaker 2: It's laced with you are letting me down right now.

Speaker 1: It's great.

Speaker 1: And so that's great.

Speaker 1: So we actually already have in our head, we have it all like kind of like the scaffolding of what's happening.

Speaker 1: Negative view of the partner.

Speaker 1: You're on prior.

Speaker 1: You don't prioritize us.

Speaker 1: You think work is more important than being here with me.

Speaker 1: I'm frustrated with you and I'm going to explicitly or implicitly let you know that you're a disappointment to me.

Speaker 1: Why is that happening?

Speaker 1: Again, assumption.

Speaker 1: Why is it not just because of the other person's behavior, what's happening inside this listener?

Speaker 1: I am not feeling prioritized.

Speaker 1: I'm not feeling we are together.

Speaker 1: And when I'm not prioritized because being prioritized by you is so important because being a team with you, being together with you is so important.

Speaker 1: I'm actually experiencing emotional bonding, vulnerable feelings.

Speaker 1: I'm sad.

Speaker 1: I'm powerless.

Speaker 1: I'm scared.

Speaker 1: I'm not going to be able to reach you.

Speaker 1: And I can actually feel bad about myself.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 2: I don't feel connected to you right now.

Speaker 2: And when I don't feel connected, I'm like, maybe I'm not lovable.

Speaker 2: Maybe there's something wrong with me.

Speaker 2: Maybe I'm not being interesting enough.

Speaker 2: What's going on right now that he's not really here with me.

Speaker 2: And he's instead looking on his phone.

Speaker 1: Absolutely.

Speaker 1: So that's where we put all that together.

Speaker 1: We helped, you know, the listener put it together from their own perspectives, us not telling them like we're doing right now is like, look, yeah.

Speaker 1: When like, see if they could land in, I have this story about them for sure.

Speaker 1: What they're doing is wrong, but I'm actually really hurting and vulnerable.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: And then hopefully that that actually feels really good, which, you know, 99% of the time it does that.

Speaker 1: Oh my God, somebody gets me on a level.

Speaker 1: I didn't even fully get myself.

Speaker 2: Exactly.

Speaker 2: And that's the thing is like, I think a lot of people don't even realize themselves, that whole reservoir of emotion that's going on for them that leads to that reactive comment that they make that gets them into a negative conflict cycle with their partner.

Speaker 2: So we help them flush that out.

Speaker 2: It's like, oh, this is what you're really feeling.

Speaker 2: And there's actually a negative feeling about yourself in there too.

Speaker 2: Like maybe I'm not enough for this person or maybe I'm too much for them.

Speaker 1: Yeah, it totally makes sense.

Speaker 1: You love them.

Speaker 1: You want to be a team.

Speaker 1: Of course you'd be sad.

Speaker 1: You can feel bad about yourself.

Speaker 1: Why didn't you want to spend time with me?

Speaker 1: No wonder you see him as a disappointment.

Speaker 1: You tell him he's a disappointment and you're frustrated with him.

Speaker 1: All of that makes sense.

Speaker 1: So at first that's enough, right?

Speaker 1: Cause we're just wanting to like, you make sense.

Speaker 1: You're totally valid.

Speaker 1: Now, whether we're working with the person on their own or as a couple, then what we would want to do, if we succeed at that part, let's say you, everything makes sense.

Speaker 1: Everything about you, what you're doing, why you would be sending them articles about texting is wrong.

Speaker 1: Like it all makes sense.

Speaker 1: I will, I will actually send you articles to send him.

Speaker 2: Right.

Speaker 1: Everything makes sense.

Speaker 1: We do that part well.

Speaker 1: And it's cause you're hurting.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Cause he means so much to you.

Speaker 1: Absolutely.

Speaker 1: Now we would try and construct the same thing for the spouse, the husband.

Speaker 1: So let's see if we can construct again.

Speaker 1: Imagining what would that be?

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: So in this moment, they're seen as a disappointment as someone that's not prioritizing and not being part of the togetherness that their wife longs for.

Speaker 1: So there's an assumption here, right?

Speaker 1: Is that most, that must really suck.

Speaker 1: That must really be hard to be like, listen, you, you are a disappointment.

Speaker 1: You cannot control yourself and stop prioritizing work.

Speaker 1: Are you kidding me?

Speaker 1: You just checked your phone again.

Speaker 1: I'm not saying that that's totally justified, that the person would be frustrated and annoyed because they're hurting so much, but just for a moment, we're going to imagine what must it be like for this person to hear that feedback and that second.

Speaker 1: And that split second, they've just heard, I am a disappointment to you.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: So what would be the unmet love need for them in that moment from their spouse?

Speaker 2: Well, the unmet love need for them is I want to feel like I'm acceptable to you.

Speaker 2: I want to feel like I'm good.

Speaker 2: I want to feel like I'm good.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: So now they're not good.

Speaker 1: They're not acceptable.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: And when they don't feel good and acceptable, even if they don't have conscious access to this, right.

Speaker 1: If their spouse is their primary attachment figure, their emotional bonding partner, and now they think like, I'm not good.

Speaker 1: I'm not acceptable.

Speaker 1: What is the vulnerable emotion that typically accompanies that?

Speaker 1: I'm not good and I'm not acceptable.

Speaker 1: The person that I, I most long to be good and acceptable to.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 2: Despair, hopelessness, sadness, and powerlessness.

Speaker 1: It's really hard.

Speaker 2: I wonder if we should flush out what might be going on on his side, because I'm, as you're talking about this, I'm imagining all the stories that I hear from the people who are being accused of this.

Speaker 1: I keep going to probably do quickly to the vulnerable experience.

Speaker 1: I guess this is the, what I'm always trying to work out, even though it's not in the room yet.

Speaker 1: Like what would the vulnerable experience be?

Speaker 1: But you're right.

Speaker 1: Like why would someone be checking their phone at work?

Speaker 2: Right.

Speaker 2: So what I've heard a lot of is.

Speaker 2: Well, I have to.

Speaker 2: It's part of my job.

Speaker 2: I need to be on all the time.

Speaker 2: There are people that depend on me.

Speaker 2: There are people that can't do what they need to do unless they get the okay from me.

Speaker 2: I'm a manager of some kind.

Speaker 2: I'm managing a whole bunch of offices.

Speaker 2: There are crises that happen.

Speaker 2: I have to be on call to respond to this right away or X catastrophe occurs.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 2: So they have some sense of that.

Speaker 2: And they might even have some sense of, oh my God, how could you be accusing me of this when I'm doing this for us, I'm doing this for our family, I'm doing this so that we can have this money.

Speaker 1: Yes.

Speaker 1: So that's good.

Speaker 1: You did a really good enactment.

Speaker 1: So what is the.

Speaker 1: So the, the behavior is they're defending themselves, explaining themselves, defending themselves.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: The secondary emotion, right.

Speaker 1: The above the line.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: So where this person says, look, I'm criticizing you.

Speaker 1: They're equivalent behaviors.

Speaker 1: I'm going to defend myself, explain myself.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Where the spouse that's that isn't doing the texting is frustrated.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: And annoyed.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: At the texter husband, the texter husband.

Speaker 1: What's their secondary emotion?

Speaker 1: They're, they're frustrated too.

Speaker 2: They're angry.

Speaker 2: They're like, well, I'm doing this for us.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 2: I have to, I have no choice.

Speaker 2: I'd rather be here with you.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: And then what's their negative view of their spouse?

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 2: Like so unreasonable.

Speaker 1: You're unreasonable.

Speaker 1: You're not appreciative.

Speaker 2: You don't appreciate all that.

Speaker 2: I do.

Speaker 2: You don't respect my work.

Speaker 2: You don't respect me and how hard I work and what my role is here.

Speaker 2: And you don't really understand it.

Speaker 1: Totally.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: So again, so this is the thing, like, you know, I'm low, you know, that makes sense that another human being, when, when I text, because I feel like I literally live in a world that I have to do these things.

Speaker 1: These are my responsibilities.

Speaker 1: And you look like you're disappointed in me because I did it.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: That like, I'm going to defend and explain myself because like, I start to see you as like, oh my God, there's no way to make you happy.

Speaker 1: Like, why can't you appreciate me or respect what I do?

Speaker 1: Like, I'm so frustrated with you that like, I'm in trouble for doing this when this is what I have to do.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Like that behavior and that way of responding.

Speaker 1: I mean, I hope it makes sense to the listeners.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: On viewers, like that actually makes sense to me that that's how they would respond.

Speaker 2: Right.

Speaker 2: Right.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: And then, so now we have to, like, we do the same where I started.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Which, you know, you're right, Karen, to do that part first is right.

Speaker 1: We're going to validate, you know, and hopefully help the listeners see like, look, you're so important to them.

Speaker 1: Anytime you tell them that they're a disappointment to you, they're, they're going to freak out.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: They're going to like, oh my God, I'm unacceptable.

Speaker 1: Like, how come you're never happy when you don't respect me?

Speaker 1: They're going to defend themselves, explain themselves.

Speaker 1: They're going to be frustrated with you and see you negatively.

Speaker 1: Like the same way as you see them that way, negatively, they're going to see you negatively and they're going to respond to protect themselves and protest that they're not getting the love they long for from you.

Speaker 2: Right.

Speaker 1: So wide and deep down inside them, would that be happening?

Speaker 1: Now, interestingly to me, it's just math.

Speaker 1: We actually, it's all in there.

Speaker 1: The judgment, you're not appreciative.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: You don't respect me.

Speaker 1: His judgments actually tell us what his, um, love needs are.

Speaker 1: I long to be appreciated, respected like that.

Speaker 1: You believe in me.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: That you see that I'm trying, like these are things I have to do.

Speaker 1: You understand, like I'm doing my best here.

Speaker 1: Like, can I, like my, can you say, can I get a passing grade?

Speaker 2: Can I get a passing grade?

Speaker 2: Exactly.

Speaker 2: I want to be acceptable to you.

Speaker 2: Not just accept, but I want you to see that I'm doing this for us.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: And it makes sense.

Speaker 1: That would really hurt you.

Speaker 1: My attachment figure, even if you don't really get it.

Speaker 1: When I look at the phone, you think I'm not prioritizing you.

Speaker 1: You being happy with me means everything.

Speaker 1: And now I looked at the phone.

Speaker 1: I'm back to no respect.

Speaker 1: I'm not appreciated.

Speaker 1: I'm not acceptable.

Speaker 1: And those love needs are just as important to him, even though they don't, he doesn't act the same way as his wife on the outside as her needs to know that we're, we're together and we're, you prioritize me and us, right?

Speaker 1: So he's now not getting this love need that matters so much.

Speaker 1: It actually now makes sense why he would defend and explain himself.

Speaker 1: I don't have a negative view because that's just the way he protests.

Speaker 2: Right.

Speaker 2: That's the fact that now he doesn't feel connected.

Speaker 2: So first she didn't feel connected because he's, he's checking his phone and now he finds out from her that she's not, she doesn't approve of him and the way that he's acting.

Speaker 2: So now he doesn't feel connected.

Speaker 2: So now he's got to defend himself.

Speaker 1: Now he's got to defend.

Speaker 1: Like he's fighting for his life now.

Speaker 1: They're like, no, no, no.

Speaker 1: I wasn't bad.

Speaker 1: Please, please.

Speaker 1: But it just lands like, yeah, he's invalidating her.

Speaker 1: Like, you know, that, you know, like longings to be a team and please stop texting.

Speaker 1: And so they're, they're going to ratchet up the, I'm going to criticize you.

Speaker 1: I'm going to defend myself, criticize the fan and they're going to sit at that dinner together.

Speaker 1: Just pissed off and disconnected.

Speaker 1: Both of them feeling not love.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 2: And that's that you just, you just mentioned, I just want to highlight it.

Speaker 2: Cause it's really important that when he starts to defend himself, he, the other thing that he's doing is he's invalidating her protest to the disconnection.

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 2: And that makes everybody feel worse.

Speaker 2: Cause now she feels even worse than she did before.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: She feels even more or less like we're together than I, my initial protests were even less together.

Speaker 1: Now, when you defend and say like, Hey, don't you know, like I have to do these things.

Speaker 1: And so she now is going to protest even more that we're even less together, which is going to invalidate his longing for being like, you know, the way he protested that I'm not actually appreciated.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: That I'm not good enough again.

Speaker 1: I'm failing again.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: And so here's the assumption.

Speaker 1: The just, just like both of that, whether they're your criticizer or defender, there's some flavor of love you're not getting.

Speaker 1: We kind of assuming for her, like it's the, if I'm, we're not together, I get scared and vulnerable inside when I'm not acceptable to you.

Speaker 1: And it looks like I'm not appreciated.

Speaker 1: I actually get, he actually assumption at this point, it gets scared and feels powerless and it's unbearable.

Speaker 1: So he rises up frustrated with her for making him feel this way that I'm not appreciated that I'm not good enough.

Speaker 1: You're disappointed in me again.

Speaker 1: So now he's going to defend himself, explain himself frustrated with her.

Speaker 1: It's going to make her feel even less to get like we're together in a team.

Speaker 1: It's even sadder and scarier for me.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: And so she's going to have to now tell him even more.

Speaker 1: You should know texting at dinner.

Speaker 1: Who doesn't know that's a bad thing.

Speaker 1: So now he's got, he's even more of a disappointment.

Speaker 1: Like, like now it's not the teacher didn't tell him you're about to fail.

Speaker 1: You have failed.

Speaker 2: And now that he's invalidated her, she might even just, just ratchet it up another notch.

Speaker 2: In fact, actually, you know what?

Speaker 2: I feel like you you're never there for me.

Speaker 2: You owe.

Speaker 1: We get, we get into the, yeah, the language of the limbic system, right?

Speaker 1: The forever.

Speaker 1: You're never there for me.

Speaker 1: And then of course his response, you're never happy.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 2: You're never.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: We've raised the stakes.

Speaker 1: This isn't just now.

Speaker 1: Are we going to have a good dinner where like we're together and we're actually getting passing grades from each other.

Speaker 1: Now it's like we have never, you're never here and you're never happy.

Speaker 1: So now we've re this, this couple are really terrifying each other.

Speaker 2: Right.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 2: So from like a injury to all of a sudden, like the biggest, most terrible feelings you've ever had in the entire relationship is what you're inside of.

Speaker 2: And then that can happen inside of like five minutes.

Speaker 1: Absolutely.

Speaker 1: And so here's the thing, just think about what we did.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: And.

Speaker 1: You know, so what we did is we took a look at the listener's question, right?

Speaker 1: The wife in this case, and we go, the way you're reacting makes sense.

Speaker 1: The negative view makes sense.

Speaker 1: Absolutely.

Speaker 1: You must be really hurting when we're not together.

Speaker 1: Of course it would be sad for you.

Speaker 1: I get where you'd feel bad about yourself, but, and we did that well enough because we've no right to start validating the other person.

Speaker 1: If we don't do that well enough, right.

Speaker 1: They won't be coming back to see us.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: So, so now we earn the right to go, but hold on a second.

Speaker 1: Let me just for a second, imagine what it's like to be your husband.

Speaker 1: Like, you know, you actually really matter to him.

Speaker 1: So when you're this disappointed in him, when like, he's just, this is just what even look, even if it's like not the most adaptive behavior in the world that he feels he has to check his texts at dinner.

Speaker 1: Like he does live in a world that he feels that's what he has to do.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Pretty sad for him actually.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Like he thinks that's what he has to do.

Speaker 1: And, and he gets immediate feedback that he's a disappointment to you explicitly or implicitly, which is devastating for him, because more than anything, he wants to be enough for you.

Speaker 1: And so now he's in a vulnerable experience.

Speaker 1: He's feeling bad about himself.

Speaker 1: So it actually makes sense to me that he would very swiftly defend himself and be mad at you for making him feel those vulnerable feelings that he doesn't like to feel.

Speaker 1: And so you're going to feel even less together.

Speaker 1: You're going to be more scared.

Speaker 1: There's no way to be really connected to him.

Speaker 1: You're going to feel even worse about yourself.

Speaker 1: And so you're going to judge him and tell him even more how it's inappropriate.

Speaker 1: And you never, ever hear from me.

Speaker 1: Do you ever prioritize us?

Speaker 1: So he's going to like, oh my God, you have flunked me.

Speaker 1: I am never acceptable.

Speaker 1: You're just never happy.

Speaker 1: Are you?

Speaker 1: You have to ruin this dinner.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Never.

Speaker 1: And so now both of them, hopefully listeners and viewers, you're, you get this.

Speaker 1: My heart breaks for both of them.

Speaker 1: My heart breaks for both of them together.

Speaker 1: Both of them make sense, what they're feeling, how they're responding and the way they're responding, even though it makes logical sense, it is definitely going to devastate the person that they actually love and care about so much.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: If we can get that couple, right, they each, if it's just an individual, we can change the system of one person.

Speaker 1: But if we could get that couple that they saw texting a dinner gate, you know, whatever we call, whatever we put in front of the word gate, that's how I do it.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: You know, prioritizing work gate.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: If we could see over me, if they could actually come to see the entire system in this way, that's the foundation upon which they can stand together as a team where they're both valid people.

Speaker 1: And you can accept each other's vulnerable experience and see why they both react the way they do that.

Speaker 1: Now they could go, Hey, what can we do?

Speaker 1: So that you feel more prioritized.

Speaker 1: And I don't feel like I'm such a failure all the time when I'm feeling really stressed about, I have to do this stuff for work.

Speaker 1: This is the weird thing.

Speaker 1: That part is the hardest part to get them inside this one shared narrative.

Speaker 1: It becomes, and this is a leap of faith for people.

Speaker 1: It is incredible how easy it is to resolve.

Speaker 1: What do we do about like work interrupting our time together?

Speaker 1: If we get to stand upon that place where, Hey, it totally makes sense.

Speaker 1: This is so painful for both of us.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: That's the main work.

Speaker 2: We get stuck here together.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 2: You know, I want to say one more thing.

Speaker 2: Cause as you, as you were talking and doing that whole summary, which was awesome there.

Speaker 2: That one part I'm aware of is always the part that's really surprising to the one who's doing the criticizing of their partner's behavior.

Speaker 2: So in this case, the person who, who wrote in and said, you know, my partner works too much, the piece that's always a real revelation to that person is when we get the other person who's being criticized to that point where they can say, it's actually really painful for me.

Speaker 2: It actually really hurts me to feel like I'm somehow letting them down.

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 1: And that's the craft of our work, right?

Speaker 1: When you were describing earlier, Karen, like this person, like, Hey, I have to do this.

Speaker 1: These people are relying on me.

Speaker 1: Like, if I don't get this done, they can't do their work.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Like, like, like to me, it's like, you know, haven't met with so many people that live in that world.

Speaker 1: Me being one of them.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Like I know that's tremendous suffering inside.

Speaker 1: That person is really scared that they're going to fail and they have to respond to things or else I'm going, I'm going to fail.

Speaker 1: And so that's great.

Speaker 1: So we already know, even though they never shared a vulnerable feeling, oh my God, this person lives in actually a very scary world.

Speaker 1: And if I, if I, you write validate as the therapist, we do what, of course it's realistic to expect the spouse that's not being prioritized to be able to do.

Speaker 1: If we can validate them in, of course, you would be defending and explaining yourself.

Speaker 1: Of course you'd be frustrated that how come you, you're like, you don't accept me when I try so hard.

Speaker 1: Like kidding me.

Speaker 1: Like I, I, we have a project and I checked my phone and now you're upset with me.

Speaker 1: Like, come on.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: If we can validate that world for them and, you know, their spouse will trust us that we're helping them when we do it, we will have earned the right.

Speaker 1: To then access the more vulnerable.

Speaker 1: I got a little one, the little boy that's really still in your husband.

Speaker 1: I have to do these things to be good.

Speaker 1: I I'm fighting for my acceptance, right?

Speaker 1: My being appreciated in the world.

Speaker 1: They're actually really vulnerable and scared inside, but we have to work really skillfully to create the right environment and space that they would feel safe to feel that.

Speaker 1: And then share that.

Speaker 1: The spouse that like, we're not a team.

Speaker 1: You're not here one day in a session.

Speaker 1: We could actually go, Hey, you know, the way I'm defending and explain myself, I actually feel really bad when I'm a disappointment to you.

Speaker 1: And I, this is the way I live in the world.

Speaker 1: I feel like I have to do everything and I can't stop checking stuff.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: And not like all of a sudden that spouse that it was like, you don't prioritize me.

Speaker 1: You check your, your phone all the time.

Speaker 1: Now they might see the, the phone checker as a very different person.

Speaker 1: They're they're really suffering when they have to keep checking their phone and they they're devastated when it looks like I'm disappointed in them, AKA the member technical language.

Speaker 1: They actually love the shit out of me.

Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2: That's it.

Speaker 2: That's the revelation.

Speaker 2: It's like they're suffering because they want to feel like they're enough at work and then they're suffering double when they find out that they're actually disappointing.

Speaker 2: Their partner.

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 1: And of course, let's be clear the other way around, right?

Speaker 1: It might be hard for the texter to realize that their wife loves them so much.

Speaker 1: They're not actually just chronically disappointed.

Speaker 1: They're not a criticizer, right?

Speaker 1: That's just who they play on TV when they're terrified.

Speaker 1: They're not together emotionally bonded with the person they love the most in the whole world.

Speaker 1: So we can help that person like for a moment, put the letting the other person know the way it's inappropriate to be texting and you should be prioritizing our relationship and not working in our personal time.

Speaker 1: Okay, you've said that part.

Speaker 1: We're gonna let's not talk about that part right now, but help like we've earned their trust so that they would let us help them feel that.

Speaker 1: Look, I really long to be together.

Speaker 1: With you actually sad and scared that I'm never going to reach you.

Speaker 1: I miss being with you.

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 1: That will help, right?

Speaker 1: That will help so tremendously.

Speaker 1: The husband go, wait a second.

Speaker 1: This isn't just them criticizing me and telling me they're not enough.

Speaker 1: I'm not enough.

Speaker 1: It's like right.

Speaker 1: They actually really love me and they'll just long to be with me.

Speaker 1: So if we could succeed, this is the most important thing that that's the way this couple sees the problem.

Speaker 1: The entire world changes.

Speaker 1: Same problem.

Speaker 1: They're probably still going to check the phone.

Speaker 1: The other person's going to be after flip sake, but they can, if this is the primary narrative that they live in, that this is what happens, right?

Speaker 1: I am really confident.

Speaker 1: They'll be able to sort this out about working at home, right?

Speaker 2: Because we filled in all the pieces of what else is going on that were previously invisible.

Speaker 2: And so now both people, both partners are more connected to those vulnerable parts and the attachment needs that each of them has is, oh, you, you love me so much.

Speaker 2: You just want to feel connected.

Speaker 2: Oh, you love me so much.

Speaker 2: You just want to feel acceptable.

Speaker 1: I love it.

Speaker 1: And so that look, that's the primary thing, right?

Speaker 1: Like once we get to that part, we can do deeper work.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: But, but I'd say the most important thing, right.

Speaker 1: For the listener, right.

Speaker 1: Is imagine getting into this world where yep.

Speaker 1: Your reactivity makes sense, but your reactivity isn't just happening because your husband isn't texting.

Speaker 1: It's you're actually hurting inside because they're so important to you.

Speaker 1: Now, if that's true, they're not just being like defensive and like, leave me alone.

Speaker 1: I have to do this, right.

Speaker 1: Because they're just an annoying defensive person.

Speaker 1: They're actually devastated inside when they're a disappointment to you.

Speaker 1: And at first that might be a leap of fate.

Speaker 1: I'm telling you, both of you are hurting, both of you are reacting and it's only happening because you love each other.

Speaker 1: We get inside that world together.

Speaker 1: Now it could be an all needs met moment.

Speaker 1: I'm finally enough.

Speaker 1: And you understand me.

Speaker 1: Oh my God, you're actually here with me.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: That couple could like solve any problem together.

Speaker 1: And we, and we got there by through this one little piece of content that we explored.

Speaker 1: Like, this is the weird thing.

Speaker 1: We actually solve all issues almost with solving this one thing of them understanding each other about working when we're supposed to be together as a couple.

Speaker 2: Exactly.

Speaker 1: Did we leave anything out?

Speaker 1: Cause I'm, I'm kind of conscious now at time that we, we want to, no, I think we got the whole thing down.

Speaker 2: And I just want to say like, it's occurring to me.

Speaker 2: It's kind of like scuba diving.

Speaker 2: It's like mostly what couples are doing when they're having an argument.

Speaker 2: Is there above the waterline just in the place of the reactivity.

Speaker 2: And what we do is we go scuba diving with them.

Speaker 2: We look at everything that's under the waterline.

Speaker 2: Like what is the vulnerable feeling that you're having?

Speaker 2: What's the attachment need that you're having underneath.

Speaker 2: And then we bring that to the surface.

Speaker 2: And when all of that is present in the room, it's that aha that you just said that you just described so well.

Speaker 1: I love it.

Speaker 1: Scuba diving.

Speaker 1: Scuba diving.

Speaker 1: And scuba diving is scary for some people.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: It's going down like under the murky water.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: But beautiful.

Speaker 1: I love, I love that analogy.

Speaker 1: That's great.

Speaker 1: A great place to leave it.

Speaker 1: Listeners, viewers, if you want us to answer a question about your specific case, like what you're dealing with in your relationship, we'd love to.

Speaker 1: And if you want to, I'm even open to meeting with like in a, we'll have you sign a release and everything that is not psychotherapy.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: That if you wanted to be live with me or me and Karen, probably at first just me on my own, I imagine.

Speaker 1: But Karen and I'll talk about it until my wife.

Speaker 1: But I'd be very happy to run through the scenario for real with an individual or a couple.

Speaker 1: Of course, I say that now and I'll be terrified if someone takes me up on it.

Speaker 1: But, but yeah, if you wanted to be live, get to spend an hour with me for free.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: I would do that if you.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: So let's, let's, um.

Speaker 2: My phone, if they didn't want to be on video.

Speaker 1: Like you could do where we just released the audio, but I probably would need to see there.

Speaker 1: I can't, I gotta be honest.

Speaker 1: I can't do the phone only thing.

Speaker 1: I need to see people's faces.

Speaker 2: Totally.

Speaker 2: There's so much nonverbal communication.

Speaker 1: I don't do phone only sessions because I'm just, I'm 10% as effective.

Speaker 1: So I literally tell people you really don't want to do a phone only session with me.

Speaker 1: I need to see people's faces.

Speaker 2: Anyway.

Speaker 1: Thank you.

Speaker 1: This was a new thing for us.

Speaker 1: Thank you for bearing with us.

Speaker 1: Well, we're a little nervous.

Speaker 1: Thank you, Karen.

Speaker 1: You're so brave to do this with me.

Speaker 1: Just like I'm in.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: And hopefully that was helpful for people.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: And you did great.

Speaker 1: Oh, thank you.

Speaker 1: You did brilliant.

Speaker 1: Thank you, Karen.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Okay.

Speaker 1: Well, thank you listeners.

Speaker 1: We'll be back on another episode.

Speaker 1: Can't wait to answer another specific, I have to keep saying that word because it's hard for me, specific question about your relationship.

Speaker 1: Yes.

Speaker 1: Okay.

Speaker 1: Until next time.

Speaker 1: Okay.

Speaker 1: Bye.

Speaker 1: Bye.

Speaker 1: Bye.

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