Speaker 1: And then I feel really alone when everything is going on.

Speaker 2: I have no models.

Speaker 2: I'm a son of an alcoholic.

Speaker 2: No, no.

Speaker 2: Successful relationships.

Speaker 1: 11 repeat purposes.

Speaker 1: Did you get hurt too?

Speaker 1: You commute to me.

Speaker 1: Hi listeners.

Speaker 1: Figs here, just dropping in before the show starts to let you know that myself and Karen Gordon are going to try our hand at doing a live podcast episode recording.

Speaker 1: Next Wednesday, January 18 at noon pacific time.

Speaker 1: You can listen, interact.

Speaker 1: I would love to answer listeners questions live.

Speaker 1: And so hoping you'll tune in.

Speaker 1: You can get the link to the live recording in the show notes or find us on YouTube at empathy now.

Speaker 1: So E.M.P.A.T.H.I.N.O.W. So welcome back to come here to me and the couples therapy work series today.

Speaker 1: It's just myself figs.

Speaker 1: And I'm joined by Karen Gordon, my prodigy.

Speaker 1: I'd say it's not condescending or patronizing to call you that.

Speaker 1: But like I was at you have been kind of the most dedicated to really getting immersed and learning and have been with me three years or three and a half years.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: So like so I really enjoy when we get to talk about love and relationship.

Speaker 1: So thank you, Karen, for being with us today.

Speaker 2: My pleasure.

Speaker 1: Brilliant.

Speaker 1: So today, the first episode of the couples therapy work series, we did the attachment A to Z.

Speaker 1: And we just talked in plain English about why it's important to understand attachment theory and to be able to see yourself, understand yourself and understand your significant other from the lens of attachment.

Speaker 1: So today we're going to talk about the other main pillar of attachment, which is systems theory.

Speaker 1: So that there are two, say, main pillars, attachment theory and systems theory.

Speaker 1: And as couples therapists, how we primarily help people is we kind of see everything through these two lenses.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Attachment theory and systems theory.

Speaker 1: And so no further ado, we'll try and do a general kind of discussion.

Speaker 1: And then we can get in more detail and more specific examples in later episodes.

Speaker 1: But what do we mean when we talk about applying systems theory to a relationship?

Speaker 1: Like, I don't want to put you on the spot, but you are.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: I mean, as a general, that's the question.

Speaker 1: Like, I think I want to pose to the audience, but and I don't want to put you on the spot, Karen.

Speaker 2: I like to be on the spot.

Speaker 1: Yes.

Speaker 2: So I think that the main thing is and the first thing is that I tell couples when I'm working with them is, hey, guess what?

Speaker 2: There's not just one of you here.

Speaker 2: There's two of you.

Speaker 2: And the two of you create a system.

Speaker 2: And that system is.

Speaker 2: It's a constant feedback loop between how you act and how your partner responds and how they act and how you respond.

Speaker 2: And just getting that buy in is like, hey, you're both part of the system.

Speaker 2: You're actually both 50 percent of the system.

Speaker 2: I know you think your partner is 100 percent of the system and everything is their fault, but you're actually 50 percent.

Speaker 2: You're not 49 percent.

Speaker 2: You're not 51 percent.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 2: And so is your partner.

Speaker 2: And together, you're creating this cycle that you're getting into, which sometimes can be very problematic and painful for you.

Speaker 2: And probably that's why you're here in couples therapy.

Speaker 1: Brilliant.

Speaker 1: I love that.

Speaker 1: Karen has really well said.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: And there's like there's so many.

Speaker 1: I mean, here's what I do.

Speaker 1: I always put it is the biggest shift that I have to help a couple make when they first come in is this exact shift you just talked about.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: To see that their problem is not a me or you problem.

Speaker 1: It's an us problem.

Speaker 1: And that us being the negative system.

Speaker 1: It's a positive feedback loop that feels very negative that we co-create with each other.

Speaker 1: And there's so many obstacles to making that shift.

Speaker 1: And what I call it is a shift from I consciousness to we consciousness.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: So that movement from seeing the world from these are the vulnerable feelings I'm having, if you can access them at all.

Speaker 1: And because of what my partner is doing to me, that's what I call like I consciousness.

Speaker 1: And of course, their partners probably the same way.

Speaker 1: These are the vulnerable feelings I'm having, if they can feel them at all because of what my partner is doing to me.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: So they're both in I consciousness narratives.

Speaker 1: And so in a way, like our job as a attachment systems focused therapist is the first trying to help the couple get into a shared narrative of what it is we are co-creating with each other.

Speaker 2: Exactly.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: And and this is like that seems like such a small thing, but it's actually like the biggest leap for a couple to make.

Speaker 1: And I kind of I can't remember who the physicist I stole this from, like, you know, talking about like a multidimensional universe, like starting to see.

Speaker 1: Of course, I do remember, but I can't pronounce his name.

Speaker 1: Some Japanese fella.

Speaker 1: But terrible.

Speaker 1: My Japanese isn't very good.

Speaker 1: But so look, imagine like it's like when a couple is stuck in their like their parts narrative, right, their subjective experience narrative of what's happening in their relationship.

Speaker 1: They're like, you know, a koi fish in a pond that's looking up at the world above the water.

Speaker 1: And so all they see is the world is in two dimensions.

Speaker 1: Everything outside of the water is just two dimensions.

Speaker 1: And when we help a couple go from seeing like, oh, I'm just seeing this from my subjective experience to standing above the entire system that they're both a part of and seeing all of it.

Speaker 1: It's literally like taking the koi fish out of the water and they are living immersed in a three dimensional world.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: That's how big a shift it is.

Speaker 2: And I think it's revolutionary for people like just in that first session, when you help them understand that they're like, oh, I didn't realize.

Speaker 2: I didn't realize what I did affected my partner and what they do affects me.

Speaker 2: And it's actually both of us just to co-creating just the idea that we're co-creating.

Speaker 2: It's not exactly you're not just a victim of what they're doing to you.

Speaker 1: Right, exactly.

Speaker 1: And this is one of the things that I find is so hard.

Speaker 1: I always like, how do we get this message out?

Speaker 1: Because what people want to do, right, people want to like, how do I communicate better?

Speaker 1: And I don't mean to mock everybody comes.

Speaker 1: They want to communicate better.

Speaker 1: Yes.

Speaker 1: Communication skills are great.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: You know, everybody wants to fix their partner.

Speaker 1: Like, how do I get them to stop wearing, you know, white socks and no belt when they wear a suit?

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: I mean, big problems.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Well, whatever it is.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: No one wears suits anymore anyway.

Speaker 2: But at least not below the waist.

Speaker 1: At least.

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 1: No need for like uncomfortable pants anymore.

Speaker 1: But it doesn't ring a bell.

Speaker 1: One of the hardest things is like it doesn't feel like this huge life changing perspective until you've experienced it.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Like I can just imagine right now a listener like like whatever it is.

Speaker 1: Let's say like, you know, I have to do the dishes every night.

Speaker 1: My partner's off drinking with his buddies the fortnight in a row or her buddies.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Whatever it is.

Speaker 1: My wife is obsessed with yoga.

Speaker 1: She cannot buy any more Lululemon pans.

Speaker 1: So we go bankrupt.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Like I had to get both really inappropriate generalizations in there.

Speaker 1: But it doesn't seem like a very satisfying solution.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Like, you know, imagine that's really, you know, you have this really big pain, your relationship.

Speaker 1: It looks like my partner is not prioritizing me.

Speaker 1: And then you you reach out to us and you come to see us.

Speaker 1: And then we spend session after session after session trying to get both of them to have this one shared narrative that we're actually both hurting and we're both hurting each other.

Speaker 1: And we're getting stuck like two tigers chasing, you know, like holding each other's tail, going round and round in a circle.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Ouch.

Speaker 1: Look how painful this is for both of you.

Speaker 1: That shift.

Speaker 1: Everything in the couple's relationship gets better if they start to live inside of that, that systemic view of their relationship.

Speaker 2: Right.

Speaker 2: And my experience has been that couples, especially in the beginning, will get that for a moment.

Speaker 2: And you can see them get it in their bodies because they relax and they exhale and they're like, whoa.

Speaker 2: And then it goes right back to the default way of thinking.

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 1: I love that, Karen.

Speaker 1: And that's where, like, you know, the work.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Like, you know, there are three baskets that your relationship can be in.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: The good, the bad, the ugly.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: And the good is we're really connected to each other.

Speaker 1: We're not in a positive feedback loop that feels really negative.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Or, you know, we're not having a problem.

Speaker 1: We feel like we love each other.

Speaker 1: We're safely emotionally bonded with each other.

Speaker 1: And then something bad happens and we're disconnected.

Speaker 1: And now we're both in our separate narratives that the other person's hurting me.

Speaker 1: If only they would change, everything would be better.

Speaker 1: And then you have a reason to react the way you do, both of you.

Speaker 1: And so now we're in the bad place.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: And that's where the work begins.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: So this is another thing.

Speaker 1: It's really the work begins when you are in bad.

Speaker 1: And now you have to decide, are you going to give yourself and the other person a chance to get back to good?

Speaker 1: Or are you going to let the bad fester and move towards the third basket that a relationship can be in, which is ugly?

Speaker 1: And the ugly basket is you're not willing to give yourself or the other person a chance to get back to good.

Speaker 1: And some people are doing they're not even doing that consciously.

Speaker 1: Because, like, let's say I felt really alone.

Speaker 1: My partner wasn't prioritizing me.

Speaker 1: And I said, you know, I'll write him a letter every day telling him how bad he is.

Speaker 1: Like you actually might think you're helping.

Speaker 1: But that is one of the actions that keeps this negative system going.

Speaker 1: So you can imagine your partner opens that letter email again or carrier pigeon like every day.

Speaker 1: They can take it off the pigeon's leg, open it up.

Speaker 1: It just gets a lot.

Speaker 1: The pigeon can barely fly by the fifth day.

Speaker 1: Because there's so there's so much written like how bad you are on their on their ankle.

Speaker 2: But the but the person writing the letter is like trying to say like, hey, this is how I'm hurting.

Speaker 2: But they don't know how to say it from their vulnerability.

Speaker 2: So they say it from the reactive place where it's like, here's all the way that you're wrong because of the way that you're hurting me.

Speaker 2: You and so it's just criticism.

Speaker 1: They're not being bad.

Speaker 1: They're not like purposely adding like to this negative feeling, positive feedback loop they're in.

Speaker 1: They're actually desperately making a bid for connection.

Speaker 1: But unfortunately, it's not how it lands on their partner.

Speaker 1: It hurts them.

Speaker 1: It confirms they're not good enough.

Speaker 1: They're bad, whatever it is.

Speaker 2: And so now hold on, let's slow that down.

Speaker 2: Because you and I know that.

Speaker 2: But I don't think that a lot of other people realize that.

Speaker 1: How would we expand on that?

Speaker 2: So the person who's writing the letter is like, ouch, I'm in so much pain.

Speaker 2: And I really need you to hear me and understand and get me and see me and understand why I'm hurting so much.

Speaker 2: And if you understand, then maybe it'll be different.

Speaker 2: And I won't be in all this pain.

Speaker 2: And so that's where they're coming from.

Speaker 2: But they are doing it with criticism and attack, even though they might not be trying to.

Speaker 1: And they may not.

Speaker 1: Yeah, they may not even realize that that behavior comes across.

Speaker 1: They don't intend it to come across.

Speaker 1: Nor would they realize it does come across as criticism or attack.

Speaker 2: Right.

Speaker 2: Most people, when they just come to couples therapy, have no idea that their partner, who they think is so bad, is actually coming from a place of really wanting to be acceptable to their partner, wanting to make them happy, wanting to be good.

Speaker 2: And so when they get the message that they're bad, that pummels them in a way that the person sending the messages doesn't quite understand.

Speaker 2: Absolutely.

Speaker 1: So it's great.

Speaker 1: So let's just say, like, we'll use this like fictional example, right?

Speaker 1: So one of the easiest ways to do this, instead of thinking there's two of you, there's actually four of you.

Speaker 1: And in partner one, in this fictional example, we know there's the one that feels alone and not prioritized and they're hurting.

Speaker 1: They're in an experience of self where they're not getting a flavor of love that matters to them.

Speaker 1: And they're in a vulnerable experience.

Speaker 1: That's one separate person inside of partner one.

Speaker 2: I love the way you phrased that.

Speaker 2: They're not getting the flavor of love.

Speaker 2: That feels good.

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 1: I was thinking about this.

Speaker 1: Yeah, a lot like that.

Speaker 1: Love is like ice cream.

Speaker 1: And then there are many different flavors of ice cream.

Speaker 1: So like some people are sent like they love chocolate.

Speaker 1: They're sensitive to my priority.

Speaker 1: Someone else like strawberry.

Speaker 1: Am I good enough?

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: But they're all ice cream.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Even though if you're like, why would anyone ever need strawberry ice cream?

Speaker 1: I don't get it.

Speaker 1: Like, but, you know, but it's the same.

Speaker 1: You know, they're both ice cream.

Speaker 1: Just different color.

Speaker 2: Right.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Different like artificial coloring.

Speaker 1: So there's the vulnerable one inside them.

Speaker 1: And then they turn into this second version of themselves, which is the one that protests not feeling loved.

Speaker 2: Right.

Speaker 1: And that version is the one that does, even if they don't attend it.

Speaker 1: The only reason they're doing it is they're trying to get the love that seems like it's missing.

Speaker 1: I need to know I'm a priority that you care about me.

Speaker 1: So they go, the second version goes, I know what I'll do to protest not feeling a priority.

Speaker 1: I'll write them a letter.

Speaker 1: And I'll tell them all the things they're doing wrong.

Speaker 1: And I'll give them really good advice how they could stop doing those things wrong and be a better person today and tomorrow.

Speaker 2: I don't know anything about that.

Speaker 1: What's that?

Speaker 1: You don't know anything about that?

Speaker 1: Not you.

Speaker 1: Not you.

Speaker 1: Yeah, I know.

Speaker 1: We're good.

Speaker 1: We're a good couple for this, like to do the podcast, because, you know, we tend to be on opposite sides.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: In our own relationships.

Speaker 1: So we'll get into that.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: So then person three in the relationship is now your partner is now getting a flavor of love that actually really matters to them.

Speaker 1: So in this example, you could imagine the partner that just received this letter telling them, by the way, in case you didn't already realize it, you're failing to meet my needs.

Speaker 1: You're crap.

Speaker 1: You were crap yesterday.

Speaker 1: You're crap today.

Speaker 1: And I'm going to have to give you some advice so that you won't be crap tomorrow.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: And so that person just hears it.

Speaker 1: Let's say their flavor of love that they need is to know that they're acceptable.

Speaker 1: They're good.

Speaker 1: They're just not a bad person.

Speaker 1: Just like that.

Speaker 1: Could I just even have a C grade?

Speaker 1: I just like I just want like I didn't know there'd be a B or an A, like just a pass, a mere pass.

Speaker 1: And they basically just got to fail.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: And so they're hurting.

Speaker 1: And then they turn into their version of a criticizer, blamer, their version of like the fourth individual, the second one inside partner to that now is going to enter strategy to protest or try and move away from feeling bad about themselves.

Speaker 1: And so they could attack back.

Speaker 1: They could send a frickin criticizing letter back.

Speaker 2: Defending themselves.

Speaker 1: Defend themselves.

Speaker 1: All the reasons.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Or they'll shut down.

Speaker 2: Or just completely shutting down.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Like, well, I'm not even going to try if all I'm going to find out is how bad I am.

Speaker 1: I'd rather avoid feeling this way.

Speaker 1: So I am definitely off to engage even more deeply in my fantasy football league.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Which I actually know nothing about.

Speaker 1: Just to be clear.

Speaker 1: No, I really don't.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: And then now that that person, whether they defend themselves, blame back, shut down, the first person now is getting even less of the chocolate ice cream.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Even less of the I'm a priority.

Speaker 1: They're hurting even more.

Speaker 1: So now they have even more evidence.

Speaker 1: They clearly didn't get the first letter.

Speaker 1: Like, they didn't really get it.

Speaker 1: Why don't I spell it out to them now and add a video.

Speaker 1: Let me make this a multimodal media experience where I'll increase the details and the intensity of letting them know how not only did you not get it yesterday, but you're still not getting it today.

Speaker 2: And like, maybe even we can add a PowerPoint that just like makes it really clear.

Speaker 2: Like, here's A, B, and C, why you suck and why you've let me down so much.

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: And so, look, my heart breaks for that person because they actually are really look, I think this is how we could help have a better relationship.

Speaker 1: And all that happens is their partner hurts more, feels worse about themselves further away from getting strawberry ice cream, that they're acceptable, that they're good.

Speaker 1: And so they pull away or get more defensive.

Speaker 1: And, oh, my God, like how, and this is, again, remember, this is the key transformation that, you know, like, if you are, let's say, you, the listener, you're a couple, we want you to hear not just your own part, but hear and see the validity of all four people.

Speaker 1: Two little hurt ones.

Speaker 1: One's longing for chocolate ice cream, a priority.

Speaker 1: The other one's longing for strawberry ice cream.

Speaker 1: I'm just good enough.

Speaker 1: And it actually makes sense that the person longing for chocolate would send letters saying, why could you please do this to be better?

Speaker 1: And it makes sense that the person longing for a strawberry ice cream would go, well, look, if I'm going to get told I'm bad, I'm not talking.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: I actually really can see, could you please see how all four of those people, two in each of you, they totally make sense.

Speaker 1: No bad people here.

Speaker 2: Right.

Speaker 1: This is a systemic problem.

Speaker 1: Not a me or you problem, and it's only happening.

Speaker 1: Why is it happening, Karen?

Speaker 1: Punchline.

Speaker 2: Because we're hurting inside.

Speaker 1: And why are they hurting inside?

Speaker 2: Because we want love and we're not, we feel like we're not getting it.

Speaker 1: And who do we want the love from?

Speaker 2: From our partner.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: They want the love from each other.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: That's the key.

Speaker 2: That's the protest.

Speaker 2: The protest is I want to feel more connected with you.

Speaker 2: I want to feel more securely bonded with you.

Speaker 2: I want to feel like you've got me.

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 1: And on the side that wants a chocolate ice cream, that's my priority.

Speaker 1: And the other person, I want to be acceptable.

Speaker 1: I want to actually be good enough.

Speaker 1: I just don't want to be a disappointment.

Speaker 1: And this is the part that it seems so trite.

Speaker 1: The only reason that positive feedback loop, that negative system is happening between them is because they love each other so much.

Speaker 2: Exactly.

Speaker 2: I mean, that's the wow.

Speaker 2: That's like the big wow that we deliver at the beginning is like, it feels like you guys are enemies, but it's the protest is because you love each other.

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 2: Because you love each other so much that it hurts so much to feel disconnected.

Speaker 1: It's unbelievable.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: And this is the thing.

Speaker 1: It all seems so simple.

Speaker 1: Like, like, it's just, I think sometimes it's not easy, but it's really simple.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: And that's why I go back.

Speaker 1: Remember the first episode of this couples therapy works.

Speaker 1: We explained attachment theory.

Speaker 1: If you remember, again, for people that didn't listen to it, we all just need to be emotionally bonded.

Speaker 1: It's built into our system.

Speaker 1: If your partner, the person you turn to for your emotional needs to be met, looks like they're not there for you.

Speaker 1: You're going to be under a huge amount of distress.

Speaker 1: And of course, you're going to take action not to be in that distress.

Speaker 1: But you're not an island.

Speaker 1: The action you take to not be in distress will cause distress for your partner.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: So you're just going to then, like, keep running around in circles, scaring the living daylights out of each other that you're alone or you're not going to be enough for your partner.

Speaker 1: And it just goes on and on and on.

Speaker 1: And that can only happen between two people that love each other.

Speaker 2: Right.

Speaker 1: So, so that, like, if this is the thing, if people live inside of that narrative, that's what's happening between us.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: And it's only happening because we love each other.

Speaker 1: That's what actually helps them both.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: The partner, A, in this case, or, you know, the first one.

Speaker 1: Okay.

Speaker 1: I don't have to write letters.

Speaker 1: Okay.

Speaker 1: I know I'm hurting because I love you.

Speaker 1: And it's really painful when I don't feel prioritized by you.

Speaker 1: And partner B, now, okay, now that you're not writing me letters and it looks like you're actually just hurting because I mean so much.

Speaker 1: Now they don't have to run away or defend themselves.

Speaker 1: Like, I actually just really hurt when it looks like you're disappointed in me.

Speaker 1: And so now we've, we've created, we've, we've actually curated this experience, this moment that they could be with each other as two vulnerable people that they both need each other.

Speaker 2: Right.

Speaker 1: And again, that just changes everything.

Speaker 2: Right.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: We can get into that moment.

Speaker 2: Experience that they have with each other, but getting there can be tricky because it requires them to put their guard down and to trust us enough as therapists and to trust their partner enough that they're going to be able to share the vulnerable feeling and have it be received and not have it be invalidated or not have not be attacked or not be like criticized for it.

Speaker 2: And so it's risky.

Speaker 2: It's risky for them to do it.

Speaker 2: But when you can accomplish it, then it's a new emotional experience for both of them.

Speaker 2: And it's a moment of safety.

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 1: No, I love that.

Speaker 1: But this is where, like, you know, so I, until, until the couple lives inside this narrative, right?

Speaker 1: Like dad and hey, listen, we're both hurting and we both have ways of reacting when we're hurting that hurts each other.

Speaker 1: I'm not a big fan of trying to get people to share their vulnerable feelings.

Speaker 1: Just a little bit of a sprinkle of vulnerable feelings so that it helps us deeper.

Speaker 1: Get the this infinity loop, right?

Speaker 1: I'm hurting.

Speaker 1: I react.

Speaker 1: My reaction hurts you.

Speaker 1: You react.

Speaker 1: Like, we want to use a little sprinkling of the actual sharing, feeling the vulnerable feelings in service of more deeply getting the system we're in.

Speaker 1: And then you can really tell, right?

Speaker 1: When the couple really gets that, we are both hurting because we love each other.

Speaker 1: It's just like, there's just a drop.

Speaker 1: Right?

Speaker 1: There's just this emotional drop that happens.

Speaker 1: The problem is still the same.

Speaker 1: Whatever we're fighting about, you know, you still don't wash the dishes.

Speaker 1: You know, I still feel bad.

Speaker 1: I don't watch the dishes.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: But.

Speaker 1: Now, we're not like on opposite sides in a boxing ring, like, you know, like with each other, we're actually both sad.

Speaker 1: Now, we could and most importantly, we kind of cement now that look, do you see how much you mean to each other?

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: It's a repetition, repetition.

Speaker 1: But, but now we could actually take turns where one person can feel their vulnerability and share it and the other person receive it, you know, and vice versa.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 2: But no, I love what you're saying, because first, you have to feel that qualitative difference.

Speaker 2: It's like their body language changes.

Speaker 2: They relax.

Speaker 2: Usually feel the show.

Speaker 2: You can see the shoulders drop.

Speaker 2: And then there's just that kind of like the.

Speaker 2: I don't know how to describe it, but it's just it feels different.

Speaker 2: It's just the air.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Look, they feel safer with each other.

Speaker 1: And they're like, too little vulnerable.

Speaker 1: I always say, like, they're too little field mice.

Speaker 1: Like, they previously wanted them look like a rock and the other look like Medusa.

Speaker 1: And now all of a sudden, they're too little vulnerable mammals.

Speaker 1: Like, I actually just want to be a priority to you.

Speaker 1: And I was like, I feel terrible when you're upset with me.

Speaker 1: Like, it's just they're not you're not they're not scary to each other.

Speaker 2: Right.

Speaker 2: And they might even be making eye contact, even just like a little bit, like a little moment.

Speaker 2: I'm willing to look at you for a second now or before it was like nothing.

Speaker 1: Absolutely.

Speaker 1: And so, look, this is this is the tough part.

Speaker 1: Obviously, when when a couple comes into our room, we can work on making this transition happen.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: But but, you know, just to go back, what I said, I was saying at the beginning, this isn't what people want to work on.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: So this is the tough part.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Like, like, you know, I can just, again, imagine the listeners out there going, OK, that's all well and good.

Speaker 1: When do we get busy on on fixing what are actual problems?

Speaker 2: What do we do?

Speaker 1: And this is where, like, the order really matters.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: There's actually two problems.

Speaker 1: There's the problem of the content in your relationship right now.

Speaker 1: Again, whether it's sex, money, in-laws, housework, you know, whatever it is.

Speaker 1: Some other betrayal.

Speaker 1: Like, there's, you know, there's endless right potential content that is causing the problem.

Speaker 1: And then there's this second level problem, more primary first order problem, which is the emotional bonding issue that's happening between us when this particular problem, again, housework, sex, money, yada, yada, yada, yada.

Speaker 1: And I don't mean to minimize it.

Speaker 1: But the bigger problem to resolve first is what is the emotional bonding system that's getting created between us when we talk about sex or money or housework or you support, you know, Donald Trump?

Speaker 1: And I, I go even further right than that.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 2: Right.

Speaker 2: How we talk about the problem and how we get stuck in how we talk about the problem, how we relate to each other when we talk about the problem.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: And so this is the thing, right?

Speaker 1: Like getting people to buy in to let's fix this present moment first.

Speaker 1: And this present moment being this emotional disconnection between us and getting like the we're a team and we're both hurting because we love each other.

Speaker 1: And now we can return.

Speaker 1: To our, you know, you know, who does the dishes at night?

Speaker 1: Why don't we have sex anymore?

Speaker 1: Like whatever it is.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Whatever it is, you know, when are you going to stop collecting stray cats and ruining our home?

Speaker 2: I just call it drag and drop content.

Speaker 2: Like it doesn't matter.

Speaker 2: Just throw it in the bucket.

Speaker 2: Like whatever it is, it's it's always the same.

Speaker 2: And the cycle is generally going to be the same around whatever issue you're dealing with.

Speaker 2: So let's work on the cycle, not the content.

Speaker 1: It's great.

Speaker 1: It's great.

Speaker 1: But like, but I really get and I'm the same.

Speaker 1: Like if someone told me, you know, if I'm like really worried about something, they say, hey, let's spend some time to just be with how you're dealing with what you're worried about versus trying to solve what you're worried about.

Speaker 1: Like I would look at that person and go, listen, I came into the wrong room.

Speaker 1: Like they're right.

Speaker 1: I know.

Speaker 1: They're like, I'm like, OK, thank you.

Speaker 1: Moving on.

Speaker 1: Let me find someone that will actually engage my neuroticism, please, instead of actually trying to help me.

Speaker 1: That's like that's not good.

Speaker 1: And look, and this is where I'm really it's kind of a little frustrating if it's OK.

Speaker 1: Like the content that people want to consume.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Online about relationship help is.

Speaker 1: Is your partner a narcissist?

Speaker 1: Is your partner borderline?

Speaker 1: How can we fix you yourself or fix your partner?

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: That is really compelling.

Speaker 1: It literally is like eating a bag of M&M's.

Speaker 1: Who doesn't want M&M's for dinner?

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Or pizza.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: But you're going to eat it.

Speaker 1: You're going to feel like shit.

Speaker 1: You're going to go home to your relationship, make things worse.

Speaker 1: Whereas the actual nutritious.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: And, you know, like a protein, starch, vegetables, small amount of starch.

Speaker 1: OK.

Speaker 1: You know, I know these days starch.

Speaker 2: Primarily paleo.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Whatever.

Speaker 2: Organic meal that we're trying to feed you is.

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 1: It's not it's just not as exciting.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Like we offer like salad, a really well made salad.

Speaker 1: And it's hard to compete with like where people are like, look, have pizza.

Speaker 1: And this pizza will really help.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Now, the good news for us is that eventually people are in.

Speaker 1: I mean, it's terrible.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: I feel bad.

Speaker 1: People are in so much pain that all of that, like researching, is my partner a narcissist or are they borderline?

Speaker 1: Eventually they will get to a place that is not working and they will come to people like us to actually help them.

Speaker 1: But I really what I'm hoping for this show is we could get people a little sooner.

Speaker 1: Like before one of them has burned the other's passport and before the other person slashed their tires.

Speaker 1: Like, you know, I'd love if that wasn't what told them, hey, listen, I think we might be in a system where we're both hurting and we need help.

Speaker 1: Well, yeah.

Speaker 1: What do you think?

Speaker 2: Well, I think if you're reminding me of something like that, you said that I'm remembering from a long time ago, like maybe it was like really like three years ago when we were having a conversation and you were saying, you know, everybody asks the question and I get it all the time.

Speaker 2: OK, so what do we do?

Speaker 2: And that's what they want to know.

Speaker 2: What do we do?

Speaker 2: How do we fix the problem?

Speaker 2: And that's what you're talking about.

Speaker 2: And I remember you saying, especially because we're based in San Francisco and so a lot of our clients are in San Francisco.

Speaker 2: I'm not worried about what you do.

Speaker 2: You guys are the best what to do people in the whole country.

Speaker 2: That's why you're here.

Speaker 2: You're really good at the what to do.

Speaker 2: We're trying to offer a perspective shift.

Speaker 2: And once you have that shift, you're just going to know what to do.

Speaker 2: You're going to know what to do.

Speaker 2: You're going to it's going to be obvious the next thing to do.

Speaker 2: Taking your partner's hand or offering something that wasn't available to you before because you were in this different state.

Speaker 2: Now we're just trying to get you into a different state where you're available for different solutions.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: I love that, Karen.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Thank you.

Speaker 1: I love that.

Speaker 1: Like you're younger than me.

Speaker 1: So you actually remember stuff.

Speaker 2: That's actually something you said to me a long time ago.

Speaker 2: I'm just repeating it to you.

Speaker 1: No, but it's so great.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: This is the thing.

Speaker 1: The state change of which is this.

Speaker 1: We live in the shared narrative that we're both hurting.

Speaker 1: We both hurt each other.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Because we love each other so much.

Speaker 1: I now the kind of the same problem that didn't work before inside of that way of seeing the world.

Speaker 1: Now it'll work.

Speaker 1: So this is this crazy thing.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Like you said, beautifully.

Speaker 1: Working on what to do to make it better isn't the most important work to do.

Speaker 1: It's creating the state change.

Speaker 1: And then all of a sudden you're going to have all sorts of solutions to the same problem that seemed impossible to resolve.

Speaker 2: So this brings up another question for me, which is we don't do this as therapists, but there I'm imagining that some people might hear that and think of that as some sort of bypass.

Speaker 2: Like as if, oh, okay, we could just say that we're in this like better place.

Speaker 2: And, oh, we get that it's both of us and not just one of us.

Speaker 2: And so now our problem is going to magically be different.

Speaker 2: You know?

Speaker 2: So how do we address that?

Speaker 1: No, no, that's great.

Speaker 1: That's great.

Speaker 1: I love that.

Speaker 1: But let's go back to what the promise is.

Speaker 1: When I say the promise, like when someone reaches out to see us, right, what are we offering?

Speaker 1: What are we offering?

Speaker 1: Here's the way I would say what we're actually offering is like, look, you guys are disconnected from each other.

Speaker 1: You're going to get disconnected from each other again and again for the rest of your life.

Speaker 1: Guaranteed.

Speaker 1: Some problems are never going to be solved.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: You know, like I don't like how you breakdance.

Speaker 1: I just don't.

Speaker 1: And you're a committed breakdancer.

Speaker 1: Like, what can I do?

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: You're going to keep breakdancing and I'm always going to be turned off and embarrassed at parties.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: So like you're just like, there's no solving for that problem.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: But at least we could get to a place that we were able to talk to each other about.

Speaker 1: Look, it really hurts that like you don't support my breakdance.

Speaker 1: It really matters.

Speaker 1: And it's like, I don't know what to say.

Speaker 1: I got really embarrassed.

Speaker 1: I don't like the attention on me.

Speaker 1: Always trying to get me to do the worm with you.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: At least we could.

Speaker 1: Oh, my God.

Speaker 1: At least now we're valid.

Speaker 1: We can accept each other's experience.

Speaker 1: They both actually make sense.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: And that changes.

Speaker 1: We may still have the issue of breakdancing at weddings, being embarrassing or feeling not supported.

Speaker 1: But at least we now are completely different people and how we actually approach each other on the topic.

Speaker 2: Right.

Speaker 2: So our promise is we're not trying to actually solve their problems.

Speaker 2: We're trying to help them feel their feelings better and be able to share their feelings in a vulnerable way.

Speaker 2: So that then they have the ability to solve their problems from a different place or even the ones that they can't solve.

Speaker 2: Just to.

Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1: And we just want to help them go from being disconnected, their emotional bond.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: They're not going to like they just don't have access to creative solutions.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: And effective solutions when they're separated.

Speaker 1: And all we want to do is get them to hear like they're back emotionally bonded to each other.

Speaker 1: And if we can get them back to emotionally bonded, then they have access to all of their resources, problem solving, creative skills, and they can do it.

Speaker 1: And look, we can guide people and help people through them, the problem, problem solving part.

Speaker 1: But again, it's just the order really matters.

Speaker 1: Let's get you emotionally bonded and connected first and then let's solve problems.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 2: And I think that emotional bonding is so important because.

Speaker 2: Again, going back to attachment and it might be a little bit of a restating what you said last week, but that we actually can't even we don't have access to our complete selves when we are in an attachment distress because we are so frightened because our prefrontal cortex goes offline and we cannot think clearly.

Speaker 2: We're in fight or flight or freeze.

Speaker 2: And so once you get emotionally safe, then it's like, OK, I can regulate my nervous system.

Speaker 2: Now I can breathe again.

Speaker 2: Now I can actually make eye contact with you and notice that you are another person in the room who also has needs.

Speaker 2: And maybe we can solve problems together from this place that wasn't available before because we were in crisis.

Speaker 1: Yeah, that's brilliant.

Speaker 1: No, absolutely.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: We are the parts of your brain that have learned communication skills, breathing techniques, whatever the hell it is, will not be online when you're in disconnection from your primary partner.

Speaker 1: And so the most important skill that you can work on is how do we get each other back to deescalated, not limbic system activated after we get disconnected from each other.

Speaker 1: Disconnection, again, what's the promise?

Speaker 1: You've got to accept disconnection as a natural part, like a fight, argument, being annoyed with each other, whatever you describe it as, right, is a natural part of relationship.

Speaker 1: And the quality of your relationship is going to be determined by can you, once you've been disconnected, get back to connected.

Speaker 1: And the path to doing it is actually we know it really well.

Speaker 1: And it's not just us.

Speaker 1: It's emotionally focused couples therapy, right?

Speaker 1: It's the gold standard of how to help couples, right?

Speaker 1: That's just what we know how to do here at Empathy, right?

Speaker 1: Is that we help you see that it's both of you, not just one of you.

Speaker 1: And actually, you're both hurting, right?

Speaker 1: That's actually what's driving both of your behaviors that you both find really annoying about the other person.

Speaker 1: And when you put all that together, all of a sudden you see, wait a second, I make a lot of sense the way I'm hurting and the way I'm reacting.

Speaker 1: And, well, my partner makes a lot of sense.

Speaker 1: They're actually hurting too.

Speaker 1: And now I can make sense of the way they're reacting.

Speaker 1: Would you look at how we're keeping each other disconnected?

Speaker 1: And then there's this really important shift then.

Speaker 1: It's not just an academic exercise.

Speaker 1: It's like, oh, and it's an awe for us, right?

Speaker 1: Not just me, not just you.

Speaker 1: And I often put this, we need to shift from experience that is two separate suffering bubbles to rejoin my suffering bubble and your suffering bubble.

Speaker 1: And we join them together and we're both living inside.

Speaker 1: We are suffering.

Speaker 1: Look at us in our shared suffering bubble.

Speaker 1: This is so painful for us that we've been disconnected for the last two days.

Speaker 1: That's actually the revolutionary part of emotionally focused couples therapy, that we spend so much time getting a couple to that what we call de-escalation before we work on solving the actual problem of the day, the month, the year, the lifetime.

Speaker 1: By the way, the last thing, just again, remember, every single thing we do is infused with this last episode, attachment theory.

Speaker 1: Every single thing we do as couples therapists and empathy, we're seeing through the lens of attachment.

Speaker 2: Exactly.

Speaker 1: And everything we do and say, we're seeing through the lens of this systems idea.

Speaker 1: The way I describe it to the therapists these days, Karen, that meet with me every week in the trainings, is I actually have a user interface right in front of my eyeballs.

Speaker 1: I see an infinity loop and I'm constantly mapping out when I'm sitting with a couple.

Speaker 1: I'm constantly mapping out.

Speaker 1: So that's where you get hurt.

Speaker 1: Oh, I get why you react.

Speaker 1: Ah, I get now why it hurts the other person.

Speaker 1: Oh, no wonder you react that way.

Speaker 1: Oh, that's guaranteed to hurt you some more.

Speaker 1: And so I'm constantly seeing, oh, I get why these two people, God bless their little hearts.

Speaker 1: They're having such a hard time and they're actually both doing their best.

Speaker 1: And so, yeah.

Speaker 1: And then if I can get them on board, please see it this way.

Speaker 1: Please.

Speaker 1: You're both actually really good.

Speaker 1: You just love each other.

Speaker 1: Their entire life changes.

Speaker 1: Anything you think we missed that's important as an introduction to the systems part?

Speaker 2: Maybe just adding in the word empathy.

Speaker 2: I mean, that is the word of our company.

Speaker 2: And it's the specific thing that allows for that.

Speaker 2: Oh, that is the is the empathy is like, oh, I get what it's like to be you and to hurt the way that you do.

Speaker 2: And I can feel that you get what it's like to be me.

Speaker 2: And I can see it in your body and in your face and in your tone that you get it.

Speaker 2: And that makes me feel so relieved.

Speaker 2: And that just brings me to such a place of calm when I realize that you get what it's like to be me and I get what it's like to be you.

Speaker 2: And like you said, which I really loved, that we are in this suffering bubble together and not just by ourselves.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Well, by the way, I love that.

Speaker 1: I think that's a great maybe that's what we'll do next, like empathy, like and how to have an empathic experience.

Speaker 1: What I'll just say for now and then it'll key it up is ideally like, you know, the crafts person in me, like in couples therapy is craft is art.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Ideally, empathy is an emergent experience.

Speaker 1: That we go through this seeing all the parts like I'm hurting.

Speaker 1: Oh, now I see the way I react when I'm hurting.

Speaker 1: Ah, it hurts you.

Speaker 1: We're literally just being scientists.

Speaker 1: We're studying that.

Speaker 1: So, like, I'm reacting like that.

Speaker 1: It makes sense.

Speaker 1: I react like that.

Speaker 1: But it hurts you.

Speaker 1: That's how it hurts you.

Speaker 1: That's interesting.

Speaker 1: Oh, so that's why you pull away and don't say anything.

Speaker 1: That's not the reason I thought you were pulling away.

Speaker 1: And that actually hurts me more.

Speaker 1: And then that changes our brain chemistry.

Speaker 1: It changes our nervous system, our limbic system.

Speaker 1: And lo and behold, it opens up this window.

Speaker 1: Like, it's like a vacuum.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: That now can actually be filled with the way we love and care about, like, compassion, like, and then empathy.

Speaker 1: So, so the magic of our work is we march people up to this threshold of an empathic experience.

Speaker 1: And then we don't push them over the edge.

Speaker 1: We put them in headlocks to get them to the edge.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Like, you know, to get them there.

Speaker 1: But then we're like, just step back and then watch these two people have empathy.

Speaker 1: You've been hurting, not being prioritized, and you feel like you're not enough for me.

Speaker 1: And that's where the name of the podcast comes from.

Speaker 1: You come here.

Speaker 1: No, you come here.

Speaker 1: Right, because now they have this empathy for each other.

Speaker 1: But, yeah, we should talk more about how, like, you know, like the ins and outs of creating empathy.

Speaker 1: Empathic experiences.

Speaker 2: I love that.

Speaker 2: And I think that's a really important point.

Speaker 2: That, like, allowing it to emerge.

Speaker 2: You're not trying to force it.

Speaker 2: You're creating a climate of understanding in which the empathy has the most optimal chance of emerging.

Speaker 2: Yes.

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 1: Yeah, because look, it's there, right?

Speaker 1: We know these people, no matter what they tell you, how they think about each other.

Speaker 1: Look, the only reason they're saying negative things about each other or think of them is because they love each other.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: You know, the opposite of love is not hate.

Speaker 1: It's like apathy.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Like these people are like in pain.

Speaker 1: They're acting poorly in each other's eyes because they love each other.

Speaker 1: That's all that's happening.

Speaker 1: And then we try and make that really clear and then, like, help them, you know, put Band-Aids on each other's little wounded hearts.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 2: Aw, that's such a cutie.

Speaker 1: And then they can solve any problems.

Speaker 1: Or accept the ones that can't be solved.

Speaker 1: Well, I hope you'll do this with me again, Karen, please.

Speaker 2: It's a deal.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: I feel selfish.

Speaker 1: You know, we just don't get to talk as much anymore.

Speaker 1: So I just like getting to spend this time with you.

Speaker 2: I know.

Speaker 2: Seriously.

Speaker 1: Thank you.

Speaker 2: I don't have a lot of, like, should be comics in my life.

Speaker 1: Thank you.

Speaker 1: I now refer to myself as having humor Tourette's.

Speaker 1: You can reign me in.

Speaker 1: You know the way, like, I have to keep myself entertained?

Speaker 1: I know some of the examples I create, like, are like, okay, Fig, calm down.

Speaker 1: You can calm me down.

Speaker 2: Well, you're a crazy Irishman, so we have to make space for that, too.

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 1: I know.

Speaker 1: I don't do the crazy Irishman drinking and dancing on tables and bars at four in the morning.

Speaker 1: So I have to entertain myself other ways.

Speaker 1: The crazy still has to come out.

Speaker 2: Right.

Speaker 1: But, hey, thank you, Karen.

Speaker 2: Thank you.

Speaker 1: And thank you, listeners, viewers, and we will be back.

Speaker 1: And I think we'll probably talk about empathy and how to create empathic experiences.

Speaker 2: Yeah, that sounds good.

Speaker 2: That sounds like a good next episode.

Speaker 1: Brilliant.

Speaker 1: Till next time.

Speaker 2: Okay.

Speaker 1: Bye.

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