Speaker 1: This is amazing.

Speaker 1: Look what you did.

Speaker 1: And you can do this again and again, no matter what the issue that comes up between the two of you forever.

Speaker 1: Toxic relationship, my arse.

Speaker 1: And then I feel really alone with everything.

Speaker 2: I have no money.

Speaker 1: So welcome back.

Speaker 1: Come here to me, podcast listeners and viewers.

Speaker 1: Today we're kind of changing the format up a little bit.

Speaker 1: It's going to be me, moi, figs, and our podcast producer, Steph.

Speaker 2: Hi.

Speaker 1: Thank you for being live with us today, Steph.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm a real voice.

Speaker 2: I'm not just pulling the puppet strings from the background.

Speaker 1: You're being very brave to actually have your voice on the podcast.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: So we're in the middle of trying to write an article.

Speaker 1: What's the name of article again?

Speaker 1: What's the question, Steph?

Speaker 2: How to fix a toxic relationship.

Speaker 1: How to fix a toxic relationship.

Speaker 1: So what we thought we would do for this episode is we'll walk through it.

Speaker 1: I know, Steph, you have questions.

Speaker 1: And we'll go through what the process would be that we would recommend if you find yourself in what feels like a toxic relationship, how you can make it better.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm not a therapist.

Speaker 2: So I'm the voice of the people, I guess.

Speaker 1: I like that.

Speaker 2: Or the voice of the internet.

Speaker 1: Nice.

Speaker 2: But I was wondering if we could start with, for the purposes of this conversation, what is a toxic relationship?

Speaker 2: Because it's a very pop psychology or internet-propagated term, but it's used to describe a lot of different kinds of situations.

Speaker 2: Because on one extreme end, you have relationships with what I recognize, in my opinion, to be actual emotional abuse.

Speaker 2: And then on the other hand, you have just any relationship that gets stuck in painful patterns and destructive behaviors.

Speaker 2: So what would you consider to be a toxic relationship?

Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a great question.

Speaker 1: I like that defining what it means.

Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's the thing.

Speaker 1: It means so many different things to different people, right?

Speaker 1: But for the purposes of this show, I would imagine the broadest definition is just the one and or both members of the relationship are in suffering a lot to most of the time.

Speaker 1: It just doesn't seem to be possible to have any ease with each other.

Speaker 1: The relationship seems to constantly devolve into conflict, struggles, fights, whatever you call it, right?

Speaker 1: Now, obviously, I would say one way to distinguish between those two things is it's both people are feeling that way all the time, right?

Speaker 1: Versus it's just one person is feeling that way, right?

Speaker 1: Like one person could be look, I'm in a really toxic relationship.

Speaker 1: And the other person is, well, this is this is just the way relationships are.

Speaker 2: This works for me.

Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: So and that's a really big deal.

Speaker 1: Right?

Speaker 1: Because by the way, because one of the first thing I noted about your question, how do I fix a toxic relationship?

Speaker 1: Like I'd already feel really happy if a prospective client came to me with that question.

Speaker 2: Right?

Speaker 1: Because what's embedded inside the question is they're framing the relationship has a problem as a whole, right?

Speaker 1: Versus most people, unfortunately, that's not how they start off their inquiry about how to have a better relationship.

Speaker 1: They usually start off with how can I fix my toxic partner?

Speaker 2: Right?

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: So I'm actually encouraged if someone comes to me and says, hey, our relationship is toxic.

Speaker 1: Right?

Speaker 1: Like that's incredible, right?

Speaker 1: That they're not just blaming their partner solely for their relationships problems.

Speaker 1: They're actually seeing it as a systemic problem.

Speaker 2: Now do both partners in that situation have to see the relationship as toxic?

Speaker 1: Well, when someone says toxic, what I would think toxic is both people are getting so hurt and they're engaging in reactive behavior when they're hurt, that they get themselves tied in knots and the conflict, the pain gets bigger and bigger and bigger and there's no way out.

Speaker 1: So they're both getting hurt and they're both trying to get out of being hurt.

Speaker 1: But the way they both try and get out of getting hurt makes it the pain even bigger.

Speaker 1: And so it builds up to toxic levels of pain and reactivity.

Speaker 2: Okay.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: So now there are other, let's say scenarios where let's say you somehow happen to be a relatively securely attached person.

Speaker 1: You don't have huge wounding on the side of love of feeling abandoned.

Speaker 1: And you don't have huge wounding on the side of wounding of love of being rejected for not being good enough or not being acceptable.

Speaker 1: But let's say for some reason you ended up in a long term relationship with someone that actually does have huge wounding on the side of being abandoned, rejected and or haven't helped you both.

Speaker 2: Right.

Speaker 1: So that's a situation that no matter, let's say what you do as someone that is relatively securely attached, you're more severely emotionally wounded person is going to be activated more often than you are.

Speaker 1: And they're going to invite you more frequently than you would want to into opportunities to resolve emotional bonding distress, right?

Speaker 2: Yeah, right.

Speaker 1: They're going to be activated more often than you are.

Speaker 1: And so you it would make sense that you could be in that scenario.

Speaker 1: Wow, like, I don't understand why, like, there's just so much drama in the relationship, right?

Speaker 1: Like I went out and got donuts, and I only got three.

Speaker 1: And I don't understand why they're upset with me.

Speaker 1: Right?

Speaker 1: Yeah, I got one each and one for the dog.

Speaker 1: And they're, you know, why are they all of a sudden feeling like I can't believe you wouldn't have considered me and, you know, gotten, you know, like, two for me, whatever it is, right?

Speaker 2: Out of curiosity, is that something you see a lot in your couples therapy sessions, where there's one person who has more of a severe wounding and sort of pulls, I know, you don't like to consider like an initiating of a cycle being on one person, but or does it tend to be a little bit more even?

Speaker 1: Well, I think for someone to end up in a long term relationship with someone, it tends to be more even, right?

Speaker 1: Usually people of relatively similar amount of wounding and love are drawn to stay together in love and relationship.

Speaker 1: Now, it may not look like that on the outside, right?

Speaker 1: Because if you remember, like, at least 70 to 80% of the time, one person that's wounded around, I need to know I'm important to you, or I'm special to you, or you want me, right?

Speaker 1: I'm your priority, ends up with someone that's more wounded around Oh, my God, is there any way I could be acceptable?

Speaker 1: Good enough?

Speaker 1: Why can't right now be good, right?

Speaker 1: One person is trying to get the homeostasis and the other person's trying to get closer.

Speaker 1: So that's the most common bomb.

Speaker 1: Now for the some, the person that's trying to get closer, they don't think of the way they're trying to get closer is because they're wounded.

Speaker 1: But most likely, there's something inside of their body, their history where they didn't have the closeness they needed.

Speaker 1: And they get hurt, threatened, activated, when it looks like they don't have the closeness they need.

Speaker 1: And so there are always on this deep, deep, you know, fundamental level of their nervous system and limbic system.

Speaker 1: They're in a constant search for more closeness right now is never good enough.

Speaker 1: They're always trying to get into more closeness.

Speaker 1: That person will almost always pick someone that has a similar level of threatenedness or woundedness around I just want this moment to be enough, right?

Speaker 1: So they're always trying to get to is this good enough?

Speaker 1: Could we just stay right here?

Speaker 1: What do I have to do to make right here?

Speaker 1: Okay, is it okay now?

Speaker 1: And so you can see there's a built in tension.

Speaker 1: There's a built in romantic love tension in that dynamic that one person is like, Okay, I got you a donut.

Speaker 1: Are you happy now?

Speaker 1: And the other person is like, if it was two donuts, I would feel love.

Speaker 2: Yes.

Speaker 1: So you could imagine the person that is going Look, if it was only two donuts, I would feel love.

Speaker 1: They don't think that that's coming from a wounded place of threatenedness inside them.

Speaker 1: And the person that says, Hey, listen, I did actually go out and get a donut.

Speaker 1: Why couldn't one donut be enough?

Speaker 1: Both of them think they're actually just speaking completely rationally.

Speaker 1: And they don't realize their whole orientation to donuts is built from their attachment wounding their attachment style.

Speaker 2: Right?

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 2: So you know, it sort of goes back to that thing that you've mentioned about trying to get that missing experience.

Speaker 2: Like it makes sense to me that two people who have a similar level of wounding are drawn to each other because the intensity matches the level that they need of like getting that experience.

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 1: Yeah, because ultimately, we're trying to have an empathy squared experience.

Speaker 1: And you know, what I mean by empathy squared is everybody, or not everybody, but most people understand what empathy is, as a one directional experience.

Speaker 1: There is a person that's hurting, not feeling met, they share their way, they're not feeling mad.

Speaker 1: And the other person feels with them, your partner feels with you.

Speaker 1: Oh, that's awful that you're not feeling love.

Speaker 1: That's terrible.

Speaker 1: My heart goes out to you.

Speaker 1: Right?

Speaker 1: And the person that was not feeling Oh my god, you really feel my pain.

Speaker 1: Thank you so much.

Speaker 1: I love that you're actually with me in the way I'm not feeling love.

Speaker 1: But that's just one person being empathized with.

Speaker 1: And what we're trying to do, let's say at empathy, right, hence the name the company is we need to try and help both because in relationship, both people are hurting at the same time.

Speaker 1: And both people are hurting each other at the same time.

Speaker 1: And both of you, even if you're not intending to are hurting each other at exactly the same time.

Speaker 1: And so we want to have an experience that you both have empathy for each other, the way you're hurting, and you can see how I am hurting you and you are hurting me in one instant of time.

Speaker 1: That moment that we go from two separate stories to one shared story that's saturated and empathy and compassion for both of us that we're living inside the tragedy of how much it hurts you and me at the exact same moment when we're disconnected.

Speaker 1: That is the most important foundational experience that a couple has to have with each other.

Speaker 2: Walk me through like, how do you in fact fix a toxic relationship?

Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a great question.

Speaker 1: So if let's say a person or a couple reached out to me and said, we're in a toxic relationship, how do we fix it?

Speaker 1: So like I mentioned, the first thing I'd be really encouraged that one person or both people were considering the issue is the relationship is toxic versus I am toxic and or the other person is toxic, right?

Speaker 1: The fact that they're already naming we have a systemic problem is huge.

Speaker 2: Right?

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: That is huge.

Speaker 1: Now, again, most likely, that's not where we're going to start off, right?

Speaker 1: Like, even if someone said that deep down in their hearts, and in their minds, they're probably living in a world that they think we're in a toxic relationship, but really, we're only in a toxic relationship, because my partner doesn't have their act together, right?

Speaker 1: And I need a way to help my partner get their act together.

Speaker 1: So in an ideal world, the best path is to try and get both people to work together to understand what is it that's happening right now in your relationship that makes it so difficult for both of you.

Speaker 1: If we want to work and change a system, a relationship, we really need both parts of the relationship or system to work together to try and make it better.

Speaker 1: And the first thing we have to do is we're not actually going to work on trying to make it better weirdly, we need to completely understand what is it that's actually happening right now between the two of us that makes this relation so difficult for both of us.

Speaker 1: So just like if there was a new virus spreading around the world, as much as we all want to rush to come up with the vaccine, or the medicine, before we can come up with a vaccine or whatever medicine is going to cure it, we have to study well, what is this virus?

Speaker 1: How does it work?

Speaker 1: What is the problem?

Speaker 1: And that's really annoying, right?

Speaker 1: Because we want to jump straight to cure, but we have to understand the problem before we cure.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: So step number one is, you know, that in an ideal world, they'd be willing to work with a third party, you know, someone like me, couples therapists somewhere, right, that knows what they're doing, that can define what they mean by it is toxic, and see if we could have both of their stories about what's going wrong, actually fit inside of one global narrative, where they both make sense.

Speaker 1: Yeah, right.

Speaker 1: So let's say this quote, unquote, toxic relationship, one person's story is my partner's really controlling, they want me to go to bed at a certain hour, get up at a certain hour, eat certain foods, be home from work at a certain hour, whoa, I could understand that must be really threatening and really scary.

Speaker 1: It's not okay for you to be you and you live like inside a very tight ship, right?

Speaker 1: That's really threatening.

Speaker 1: And then I talked to the other person, they say, look, I'm really worried, I can't rely on my partner, they don't do what they say they'll do.

Speaker 1: I'm constantly in a place of anxiety.

Speaker 1: They say they'll clean the house, they don't clean the house.

Speaker 1: So I go, wait a second, let me see if I could be that person.

Speaker 1: Oh, yeah, you're scared all the time that you don't know if your partner is going to be there for you.

Speaker 1: So you create rules.

Speaker 1: And like, you know, boundaries for them to live inside, which of course, makes them scared, they're not acceptable.

Speaker 1: And so they're, they're less likely to actually want to come home from work on time, which makes you more scared, you're going to be abandoned.

Speaker 1: So you create even tighter rules for when they have to be home from work.

Speaker 1: Oh, I think now I understand the toxicity of your relationship as a whole, right?

Speaker 1: Look at how the more scared you are, you're going to be controlled, the less likely you are to want to come home, the less likely you are to want to come home, the more scared you are that you can't rely on them, the more you create rules for your partner to live inside, which terrifies them, there's no way they'll ever be acceptable, they can't live up to your standards.

Speaker 1: And so they're not going to come home for a week.

Speaker 1: And now you're even more scared.

Speaker 1: And you'll have to create like, you know, you're going to put locks on the doors.

Speaker 1: So they can't leave the house, right?

Speaker 1: So like, oh my god, like, I totally get like, I hope this like translates.

Speaker 1: Aha, I see the toxicity of the relationship, not just either of you as toxic people.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 2: So sort of the thing that makes it quote, unquote, toxic, and especially in a way that they might recognize themselves enough to like, give it a label, is it the intensity of the cycle that you described, and maybe how long it lasts?

Speaker 2: And like how amped up it gets?

Speaker 1: Yeah, like if you think, look, the most important thing we have to do in love is we have to be able to go from disconnected back to connected again.

Speaker 1: And this is really hard for people to accept.

Speaker 1: Most people think the most important thing we have to do in love is be nice to each other.

Speaker 1: Be really loving and kind, right?

Speaker 1: That's really good.

Speaker 1: Right, for sure.

Speaker 1: But you're not going to successfully be loving and kind all the time.

Speaker 1: Because you're going to step on the other person's raw spots, wounded spots accidentally, right?

Speaker 1: You just being you, right?

Speaker 1: And so you're going to get disconnected.

Speaker 1: And then how do we go from disconnected back to connection?

Speaker 2: Right.

Speaker 1: And some people, one way to define what a toxic relationship is, is that the length of time the couple spends in disconnection is really big.

Speaker 1: Right?

Speaker 1: It's days, it's weeks, it's months, right?

Speaker 1: Both and the individual instances of disconnection.

Speaker 1: And then if you look at the entire, let's say a month period, like 80% of the time, they're feeling not emotionally connected to each other, right?

Speaker 1: So individual instances take way too long for them to end.

Speaker 1: And then as a whole, they're spending more time disconnected than connected to each other.

Speaker 1: The other factor is to be able to go from disconnected back to connection, we have to have a meaningful repair.

Speaker 1: Right?

Speaker 1: So when you're disconnected from each other, you could just say it's as simple as, we're both not able to be here for each other in the way we both need, right?

Speaker 1: It's it's temporarily impossible to do that.

Speaker 1: Well, during that time, they're disconnected, the relationship feels toxic, right?

Speaker 1: There's no way out of it.

Speaker 1: And then that'll eventually end whether that now is it going to end because we just got tired of it.

Speaker 1: And I said, Do you want to go for lunch?

Speaker 1: I went, sure, let's go for lunch.

Speaker 1: Or does it end because look, I see how both of us have been hurting, and both of us have been hurting each other.

Speaker 1: And I now feel both eyes, both people in the relationship, I actually feel a lot of empathy for the way you and I have been hurting.

Speaker 1: And now we love each other now the way we couldn't love each other while we were disconnected from each other.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: So a toxic relationship, they are disconnected for a long time, and they don't have meaningful repair at the end of it.

Speaker 2: Right.

Speaker 2: So in terms of like the steps for fixing a toxic relationship, you start with examining the virus, if you will, exactly, understanding the cycle.

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 2: And the goal is to get to repair.

Speaker 2: So how do you get from understanding as like step one to the magic part?

Speaker 1: Yeah, so, so the first thing is, right, so I've got three entities, right?

Speaker 1: There's the two individuals, individual people, and then there's the system that they both create with each other.

Speaker 1: So I want to understand first, this story of individual A, and then I want to understand the story of individual B.

Speaker 1: And I need to understand it in a way that I see how individual A makes sense, both how they're hurting in their relationship, and what they do to not hurt.

Speaker 1: And then I got to be able to understand individual B, how they're hurting in their relationship, and what they do to try not to hurt how it makes sense.

Speaker 1: And then I mush those two stories up together into one systemic story.

Speaker 1: Okay, so both of us are hurting and both of us try and get out of hurting the way we do rationally, logically, totally makes sense.

Speaker 1: But all we managed to do is create more hurt for the other person.

Speaker 1: So now I have the story of how what these two people that are hurting in relationship and are both trying to get out of it in a way that makes things worse.

Speaker 1: And I present this, this story of the entity that is both of them together, within which they both make perfect sense.

Speaker 1: And I tell them this story, this tragedy of the system that they're both creating with each other.

Speaker 1: And I invite them to see the tragedy of the system.

Speaker 1: And in seeing the tragedy of the system, they go from feeling sorry for themselves, right, you know, and feeling bad for themselves, and feeling it's impossible for me this relationship, to feeling sorry for us, bad for us, and really, really sad for the two of us together when we're disconnected.

Speaker 1: So that's the first thing.

Speaker 1: Like the first big milestone, which is really counterintuitive to people, I want them to feel really, really sad and hopeless.

Speaker 1: But I want them to feel sad and hopeless together because of the pain we are both in.

Speaker 1: So they see it from this systemic perspective, it's tragic, and then they feel the tragedy for us.

Speaker 2: So like an A and B of part one, where there's knowing cognitively what the system is, and then feeling the feelings of like empathy for this is sad.

Speaker 2: Is that the second part?

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 1: And this is the key, right?

Speaker 1: This is what I was saying about it.

Speaker 1: Look, we were trying to get empathy squared, not just Oh, I feel sad for me.

Speaker 1: And not just even I feel sad for you.

Speaker 1: It's I feel sad for us.

Speaker 1: And again, just imagine you're watching a movie, you're watching a movie, you are the viewer of the movie, I feel sad for spouse A about how they feel abandoned.

Speaker 1: And you know what, I actually feel sad for their spouse too, that feels they're always a disappointment.

Speaker 1: And so you as the viewer of the movie, you haven't picked one spouse that you feel sorry for.

Speaker 1: In the movie, you're watching, you're like, Oh, these two people, I feel so sorry for both of them.

Speaker 1: They both love each other so much.

Speaker 1: And look how they keep missing each other.

Speaker 1: Oh, I feel so sorry for them.

Speaker 1: Yeah, that's actually the experience.

Speaker 1: Unless you know, I'm always like, as a psychotherapist, we've got more in common with Steven Spielberg, than we have with let's Sigmund Freud, right?

Speaker 1: We're trying to create that experience of empathy for the characters of a story.

Speaker 1: The couple don't realize there are these tragic figures together inside of this scene, right?

Speaker 1: And if we can get them to live inside of the scene and see it from the outside, oh my god, this is heartbreaking for the two characters in the scene equally.

Speaker 1: That's actually the hardest thing to do and most important thing to do.

Speaker 1: That's the first part.

Speaker 1: So what does that entail?

Speaker 1: First, let's say someone's out there and they feel they're in a toxic relationship.

Speaker 1: The ideal world is you'd be able to get your partner to engage in a process that someone would help both of you see what is the tragedy that we're both engaged in with each other, right?

Speaker 1: So get involved.

Speaker 1: And it's not a prerequisite that both people have to see it that way or even believe that's possible at the beginning.

Speaker 1: We just have to get on board with at least giving it a go to see if someone like me could help both of you see how, hey, listen, there's an actual systemic tragedy here, not just two separate tragedies.

Speaker 2: Right.

Speaker 2: So what's the next, you know, sort of step?

Speaker 1: So the next step, so let's say we succeeded in that, right?

Speaker 1: Which again, yeah, I'd be, again, by far the hardest thing to do, right?

Speaker 1: I always think like couples counseling, it sucks that, let's say it was a 400 meter race, right?

Speaker 1: You're running one time around the Olympic track at 400 meters, right?

Speaker 1: If you are going to fail to complete the race, you're going to fall in the first 40 yards, right?

Speaker 1: Like 90% of the people that fail will fail in the first 40 yards, because they can't go from their own separate narratives to this shared narrative and feel the tragedy for both of us.

Speaker 1: That's the hardest part.

Speaker 2: They're running up a hill in the first 40.

Speaker 1: Yeah, so I always think it's really unfair.

Speaker 1: Why couldn't we get like, you know, 300 meters and we have all the benefits like of like, yay, we understand each other, we have empathy for each other.

Speaker 1: Sure, we're struggling to meet each other's needs now.

Speaker 1: But that but it would be amazing if they you know, they they were able to get all those benefits.

Speaker 1: But if they fail, it's because we fall right out of the starting blocks, right?

Speaker 1: Which sucks, right?

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: So let's say we succeed, we get to the first 100 meters, right of the 400 meter race, right?

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: And that is oh my god, I feel how tragic this is for both of us.

Speaker 1: And I actually you make sense to me and I make sense.

Speaker 1: And my heart's breaking for both of us, right?

Speaker 1: And they're squeezing each other's hand.

Speaker 1: Right, like at least figuratively speaking, right, this is only happening because we love each other that we get stuck like this.

Speaker 1: We're just two wounded people, then we can do the next part of the track.

Speaker 1: Most people want to do the second part first, right, right, which is now we can take a long pass the two of them together.

Speaker 1: But now I can go deeply into one person's pain, right?

Speaker 1: Because the other person now feels like, okay, it's both of us, we're both hurting, I'm valid, you're valid.

Speaker 1: And now I can go explore deeply the pain of one person, organize it as an into a coherent story, I just feel like I'm always a disappointment, or I feel like I don't matter to help them feel that fully, that they're just in the pain of not mattering, or they're just in the pain of always being a disappointment, and then share and ask for their needs to be met from that pain.

Speaker 1: Because their partner now is available.

Speaker 1: They're not just trying to defend themselves, explain themselves.

Speaker 1: They're like, they're non guarded, they're undefended, right, right, because we did that first 100 meters where it's both of us, and we're both hurting.

Speaker 1: And then I can help the second person actually show up and love the person right where they need to love the most, the very thing they were longing for all the time, and help them actually then let that love in, which again, I'm saying all these things, like each one of these things is a huge milestone, right?

Speaker 1: To be able to feel your vulnerability and not just communicate from the way you protect yourself from being hurt.

Speaker 1: That's huge, right?

Speaker 1: That's a big deal.

Speaker 1: That's hard to do.

Speaker 1: Ask for your needs to be met from where you're hurting, then help the person that just heard you ask for your vulnerability to actually show up and love that part of you.

Speaker 1: Then help the person that asked for their needs to be met from their vulnerability actually let the love in that was on offer.

Speaker 1: And then help the two people live and not exit the experience of oh my god, I'm hurting and you're here for me and I'm actually here for you and I'm enough for you the way I'm being here for you and you're feeling loved.

Speaker 1: Like help them live and not exit that experience of connection because connection is actually really overwhelming and vulnerable for people and people will like Oh, look, did you see that Sparrow?

Speaker 1: Like people will find any reason to exit the place that they've most long for older life.

Speaker 2: Yeah, just scary.

Speaker 1: It's really scary.

Speaker 1: Being loved as terror like people don't like not being loved, right?

Speaker 1: It's scary, but at least they're familiar with it.

Speaker 1: You know, they've been living with it all their life.

Speaker 1: But when you actually have people be loved, they freak out.

Speaker 1: Like it really freaks people out, like actually getting the love they've been longing for.

Speaker 1: So I gotta try and stop them exiting.

Speaker 1: And there's, you know, there's loads of way people exit, right?

Speaker 1: And by the way, one of the main ways people exit is people always go to the past or the future.

Speaker 1: Let's say if I'm being loved right now in the present moment, almost everybody goes, why would I accept and trust the love I'm getting right now?

Speaker 1: Because it wasn't here yesterday?

Speaker 1: Or why would I accept the love that's here right now?

Speaker 1: Because I don't trust it'll be here tomorrow.

Speaker 1: Everybody exits a present moment by fear of the past.

Speaker 1: Oh, this isn't what it was like yesterday.

Speaker 1: You weren't here loving me like this.

Speaker 1: Or I don't trust you love me like this tomorrow.

Speaker 1: So I can't let myself feel loved right now.

Speaker 1: So So yeah, so then I have to try and help them actually stay in the present moment and grow their tolerance for actually being loved in all the ways they've always longed for.

Speaker 2: Yeah, that's such a foreign concept.

Speaker 2: The idea of like growing your tolerance for experiencing like love and acceptance.

Speaker 1: Yeah, it's crazy.

Speaker 1: People always think like, if the other person just loved me, I would feel loved.

Speaker 1: No, it's more difficult than that.

Speaker 1: And then we have to do that in both directions.

Speaker 1: Right, right.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: So the first 100 meters, look, it's both of us.

Speaker 1: We're both hurting.

Speaker 1: We both react in ways when we're hurting that hurts the other person.

Speaker 1: This is so tragic for both of us.

Speaker 1: And we live inside the tragedy for both of us.

Speaker 1: Not just my tragedy, not just your tragedy, our tragedy.

Speaker 1: And it softens our nervous systems, our limbic systems, because now we're sitting with two wounded people that the only reason we're in a quote unquote toxic relationship is because we love each other so much and we get threat, right?

Speaker 1: Now we can run the second 100 meters, which is one of us does a deep dive has to be really brave and feel our vulnerability of the way I can't I feel unloved and then ask for our needs to be met from our vulnerability.

Speaker 1: And the other person shows up and loves them there.

Speaker 1: And then that person that shared a vulnerability, lets the love in, oh shit.

Speaker 1: And then they get to be there in that like shared experience of my God, I asked for my vulnerability and you showed up and love me and I'm actually letting it in.

Speaker 1: Damn, this is crazy.

Speaker 1: And that's the second 100 meters, the third 100 meters, we do the same thing the other direction.

Speaker 1: Now, the last 100 meters of the 400 meters, we look back and go, dudes, did you see what we just did?

Speaker 1: You guys came in, you thought your relationship with toxic and you thought there was something wrong with both of you.

Speaker 1: But it turns out it's only happening because you both love each other.

Speaker 1: And you were able to feel how sad this is for both of you.

Speaker 1: And then you were really brave and you felt your vulnerability and he asked for your love to be met.

Speaker 1: And then you showed up and you loved them.

Speaker 1: And you hugged each other.

Speaker 1: And then we did the exact same thing the other direction.

Speaker 1: And next week.

Speaker 1: This is amazing.

Speaker 1: Look what you did.

Speaker 1: And you can do this again and again, no matter what the issue that comes up between the two of you forever, toxic relationship, my arse, you are just two people that love each other and you just got confused.

Speaker 1: Look how much you mean to each other.

Speaker 1: Get out of here.

Speaker 1: There's nothing wrong with both of you.

Speaker 1: That's it.

Speaker 1: That's how I'd help them.

Speaker 1: That's pretty good.

Speaker 1: Yeah, so that's the goal.

Speaker 2: Sounds very effective.

Speaker 1: It is right.

Speaker 1: And that's it is really effective.

Speaker 1: But you know, there's a lot of places that people work against each other.

Speaker 2: Right.

Speaker 1: And this is one of the things that sometimes I know people might think it sounds a no obnoxious for me to say the individual people in a relationship are not trustworthy.

Speaker 1: Your perception as a part of a system is not trustworthy.

Speaker 1: Because you like again, if you're in a two tree woods, there's only two trees in the woods, your perception of what the problem of the woods is, like, how do we resolve the woods problems, it's just a small little part of what the problem the woods are experiencing.

Speaker 1: Right, we need to get the the information from both trees.

Speaker 1: And then we need to have a drone's eye view of would you look at what's happening in the entire woods?

Speaker 1: You know, and so hopefully, that's what like, you know, I'm doing or someone like me is doing is we're getting all of the information.

Speaker 2: Well, and so I think an important part of that is like, when people hear the idea that they're not trustworthy.

Speaker 2: Yeah, they're thinking you're going straight to drone's eye view.

Speaker 2: And that's the only thing that matters.

Speaker 2: But the important part is that you're getting also both the two trees perspective, like it's a full empathetic, like understanding.

Speaker 1: Oh, absolutely.

Speaker 1: Look, when I say it's not true.

Speaker 1: So look, their experience is completely true.

Speaker 1: It's completely valid.

Speaker 1: They're absolutely right to be devastated and hurting.

Speaker 1: I would feel the exact same way I would be responding the exact same way.

Speaker 1: And it's just not the whole story.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: So just to be clear, I've never met two members of a couple where both people don't make perfect sense.

Speaker 1: And both of their pain isn't absolutely valid.

Speaker 1: Right?

Speaker 1: Because I know there's a lot of double negatives in there.

Speaker 1: But I think people can do the math.

Speaker 1: But everybody always makes sense.

Speaker 1: Everyone always makes sense.

Speaker 1: Right?

Speaker 1: Now, look, there is some small percentage of relationships where, look, one person is really out to lunch, right?

Speaker 1: They're too controlling.

Speaker 1: They're too shut down because of whatever's happened to them in their life, or whatever way they're wired differently, right?

Speaker 1: But the vast majority of times, it's just no one has walked them through this process that I described.

Speaker 2: Right.

Speaker 1: So here's what I always say, like, look, let's say you're like, you know, your partner, or you really you're just too wounded to be able to make love and relationship work.

Speaker 1: And it's all it's just going to be really toxic.

Speaker 1: And it's going to be tremendous suffering, right?

Speaker 1: Well, one, hey, listen, you still deserve to try and make it work.

Speaker 1: I'm sorry.

Speaker 1: And so I will do everything I can to help someone that look, I just get so threatened in relationship.

Speaker 1: I'm always like getting hurt.

Speaker 1: I'm always being reactive, or my partner's always getting hurt, always being reactive.

Speaker 1: You know, just like if you you went to a pound and you got a dog from the pound that's really threatened every time you try and feed them, well, the medicine is more love, more patience, right?

Speaker 1: It's not to like, you know, get rid of them, right?

Speaker 1: Or tell them to give up on love and relationship, right?

Speaker 1: So I'm just going to love them and care for them and try and help them do this thing.

Speaker 2: Right?

Speaker 1: And we'll die trying.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 2: Well, I think when people hear this breakdown that you do where you're getting to this place of an all needs met moment, exactly.

Speaker 2: I think there's a part of people where they're afraid that that's not going to happen.

Speaker 2: It's actually just we have to meet the other person's needs.

Speaker 2: And my needs don't matter.

Speaker 2: And it's hard for them to get from that to the place where I'm willing to take the dive to like work through the system or have somebody else come in and break it down.

Speaker 1: Yeah, no, you're right.

Speaker 1: You're right.

Speaker 1: And it's just not that's the thing.

Speaker 1: Most people, they just have never experienced an empathy squared moment.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: And so I can explain it conceptually.

Speaker 1: But it's something that has to be experienced where there is a way in which both people are hurting and both people are feeling each other's pain at the exact same time.

Speaker 1: And you're both just having so much love, empathy, and compassion for each other in the same instance.

Speaker 1: Look, I can explain it all day long, but we just have to experience it.

Speaker 1: The only way things work is that both people's pain is valid, it's accepted, it's empathized with, and felt deeply in both of their hearts for themselves and each other.

Speaker 1: And so this is another thing that's really a concept that's very hard for people to wrap their heads around.

Speaker 1: The way we make things better is resolving the present moment, because we have to have that present moment experience of both of us are hurting, both of us are hurting each other, both of our pain is valid, and our hearts go out to both of each other in the exact same moment.

Speaker 1: I'm always just trying to have that present moment experience.

Speaker 1: I'm not actually trying to resolve the past or the future.

Speaker 1: If we can have a present moment experience of empathy squared, of we both are loving each other right now, when we were just a minute or two minutes ago, where like, you're withholding love for me.

Speaker 1: Well, now, you're withholding love for me.

Speaker 1: And we convert that into a present moment, hey, we both love each other, and our hearts are breaking for each other.

Speaker 1: Look, it just changes absolutely everything.

Speaker 1: It changes everything.

Speaker 1: And again, there isn't a great way to describe it that will ever be a substitute for the real life experience of it.

Speaker 1: Of like, you know, of doing it for reals.

Speaker 2: So there's a level where like, if you're someone trying to determine, is this a fixable, quote, unquote, relationship, and you're hearing this breakdown of cognitively, like what the process is, and you're wondering, okay, can my partner do that?

Speaker 2: Can they gum to that place?

Speaker 2: Or can I do that?

Speaker 2: Can I get to that place?

Speaker 2: There's a level where you're never going to know for sure.

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 1: Until You need to try.

Speaker 2: You do it.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Yeah, look, you got to try it.

Speaker 1: Look, you know, and this isn't a brag.

Speaker 1: I guess it's a brag.

Speaker 1: Look, I've had couples that have already divorced or already living in different states.

Speaker 1: They're already absolutely convinced.

Speaker 1: I can't do it.

Speaker 1: My partner can't do it.

Speaker 1: And within a few months, they're back together, living together, remarried, right?

Speaker 1: They've had other therapists tell them, hey, listen, there's no, you guys got to get away from each other.

Speaker 1: On multiple occasions, I have worked in those circumstances and had those people realize the tragedy of what's happening, and love each other.

Speaker 1: Like, I got a message just two weeks ago from a couple in this situation.

Speaker 1: Years later, thank you.

Speaker 1: Thank you.

Speaker 1: Thank you.

Speaker 2: Right.

Speaker 1: And but you know, I just know how to do this thing is not me.

Speaker 1: Right?

Speaker 1: I know how to do this thing that I can maximize the chances that both people can love each other.

Speaker 1: Even if you right now today think your relationship is quote unquote toxic.

Speaker 2: Right?

Speaker 1: The best way to find out is there a chance to try and do the work.

Speaker 2: That makes sense.

Speaker 2: So I guess just thinking about like people who gravitate to the content that you and empathy put out, there's a question in the back of their heads where they're like, how much of this can I do on my own, like without getting a therapist?

Speaker 2: What do you say to that in terms of this toxic relationship structure?

Speaker 1: Yeah, well, so look, the ideal path is both people work on it together.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: And I always tell people, remember, you don't have to get someone to agree to engage in a whole system.

Speaker 1: Let's do couples counseling, and it's going to be weeks and months.

Speaker 1: And it's going to be really this really deep process of us feeling our feelings.

Speaker 1: Jesus, don't say that to someone that's reluctant to do couples counseling.

Speaker 1: Just ask them to go to one session, right?

Speaker 1: So ideally, couples counseling, right?

Speaker 1: I'm sorry, right?

Speaker 1: Couples counseling, couples coaching, right?

Speaker 1: Short of that, like, and let's say you there's no way your partner's going to do the work.

Speaker 1: Yeah, you should do the work yourself, right?

Speaker 1: You should do the work on understanding what are my unmet love needs?

Speaker 1: What's my vulnerability?

Speaker 1: What's the way I hurt?

Speaker 1: What's the way I react to protect myself?

Speaker 1: And so what's the way I continue to participate in the negative system, the positive feedback loop that feels really negative in my relationship?

Speaker 1: And so can I do the work on myself to start being more of a vulnerable person and less of a reactive person, so that I changed this system from within?

Speaker 1: Just hard to do.

Speaker 2: Right?

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: But yeah, like, yeah, like, you should do it, right?

Speaker 1: I mean, you know, you study yourself, study the system you're a part of and do the work to go from reactivity to vulnerability, and see if you can grow your empathy, understanding, and empathy of your partner.

Speaker 1: Because again, if everything I said is true, your partner actually makes sense.

Speaker 1: Even if there is a new they're so annoying.

Speaker 1: They're irritating as hell, right?

Speaker 1: They brought like, you know, like I gave the example of, you know, Mr. or Mrs. controlling pants.

Speaker 1: You know, you need to be home by 8pm.

Speaker 1: Now listen, that's really annoying.

Speaker 1: Right?

Speaker 1: Let's be clear.

Speaker 1: That's very annoying behavior.

Speaker 1: But the only reason that human being is annoying like that is there, there's a threatened little one inside of them.

Speaker 1: People that say you must be home by 8pm are scared people.

Speaker 1: And can you actually for a brief moment feel how they must be scared.

Speaker 1: And this, this controlling behavior of theirs is just how they try and survive in a scary world, right?

Speaker 1: Now, don't get me wrong, you don't have to give up on being irritated with them being controlling.

Speaker 1: But we also want to include poor little scared, scared devil.

Speaker 1: Just a little scared devil playing a controlling person.

Speaker 1: Right, right.

Speaker 1: We want to include that part of it.

Speaker 2: I guess that takes me to what I guess should be my final question.

Speaker 2: Given the time.

Speaker 2: I just wanted to hear your take on the premise that in a toxic relationship gets the behaviors that need to change.

Speaker 2: Because basically what you hear when somebody describes a toxic relationship is a list of behaviors from one or both partners.

Speaker 2: And then the idea tends to be like, well, you got to stop those behaviors.

Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's not going to work, right?

Speaker 1: Sorry, right?

Speaker 1: Trying to get people to I mean, you know, is my opinion.

Speaker 1: Obviously, there are people that go about things different direction, but people aren't going to change their behaviors built on a foundation of air like thin air, right or quicksand, right?

Speaker 1: So we need to build a foundation first and behavior change then happens organically, actually, weirdly through building a firm, solid foundation.

Speaker 1: Now, what is that foundation?

Speaker 1: The foundation is helping people understand themselves and each other.

Speaker 1: Oh, my bad behaviors is not because I'm bad or a crazy person.

Speaker 1: It's because this is how I behave or my partner behaves when they're threatened inside.

Speaker 1: And why are they threatened?

Speaker 1: Because love means so much.

Speaker 1: We want to build behavior change on top of that foundation.

Speaker 1: If you try and go straight to behavior change without Hey, listen, your behaviors as bad as they are.

Speaker 1: And don't get me wrong, I want you to stop like chasing people down the freeway and road rage incidents is, let's be clear, that should change.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: But we have to get to by the way, you know why you do that?

Speaker 1: Like, you must be really hurting and threatened.

Speaker 1: You must not feel seen, heard, considered and must feel really bad that it's so bad that you rise up into reactivity and now you're chasing people down the freeway in your truck.

Speaker 2: Yeah, right.

Speaker 1: I that foundation, we can help someone change their behavior because they can change their behavior from loving themselves.

Speaker 1: And fingers crossed their partner loving them.

Speaker 1: That's the best shot we have of behavior change.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 2: I mean, it makes sense because if you consider the behaviors that are like the bad behaviors, quote unquote, are typically is the way you've described how relationships work, a way of protesting, not feeling the flavor of love that they feel like they need.

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 2: And when you ask someone to change that behavior, that is then again, like a triggering, I'm not getting the love that I need thing.

Speaker 2: So them then from that place, trying to not do the behavior that actually makes them feel like they're better, like protected, seems like kind of counterintuitive.

Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, yeah, look, there's multiple, let's say someone that feels rejected, you know, unacceptable.

Speaker 1: They're also they're prone to feeling not enough.

Speaker 1: And so if you tell them, look, the way in which you don't show up is very disappointing.

Speaker 1: You don't make me feel special, right?

Speaker 1: They just you've just confirmed for them what they already know inside.

Speaker 1: That's why they withdraw and don't engage anyway, is they already feel shit about themselves, like I'm not enough.

Speaker 1: And so the pain is too great.

Speaker 1: The request to change their behavior, even if it's coming from inside themselves, it really just double tripled how bad they feel about themselves.

Speaker 1: They're just not going to be able to change their behavior.

Speaker 1: If you tell someone that, hey, listen, you get so angry when we're in a fight that you need to get your act together.

Speaker 1: Now, again, you're probably right.

Speaker 1: But you've just confirmed for this person that I don't feel like I matter to you.

Speaker 1: I'm not special to you.

Speaker 1: And deep down inside, they probably fear I'm too much.

Speaker 1: I'm unlovable because of how much I need.

Speaker 1: You kind of just confirmed for that person.

Speaker 1: And even if they're saying this in themselves, that I really am too much.

Speaker 1: So it just compound changing behavior without getting this fundamental, you're lovable, both of you.

Speaker 1: You're only fighting because you love each other.

Speaker 1: Love matters so much.

Speaker 1: Your your bad parts are a doorway to the most lovable parts of you.

Speaker 1: Like, it just compounds the problem.

Speaker 1: People's behavior gets worse, not better.

Speaker 1: When you try and put behavior change on top of just further negative judgment of yourself and or each other.

Speaker 1: Hey, I'm always like, don't shoot the messenger.

Speaker 1: It is what it is, right?

Speaker 1: Like it doesn't work.

Speaker 1: But by the way, again, you know, my like my little soapbox, but it sells, right?

Speaker 1: It sells like people lap up.

Speaker 1: I know how you can change.

Speaker 1: You got to get your shit together, get up at four in the morning, go to the gym, right?

Speaker 1: Like it, it sells to get people to just try and change without loving and understanding yourself first.

Speaker 1: People want to believe it.

Speaker 1: They want to believe their partner will just change.

Speaker 1: They want to believe I myself will just change.

Speaker 1: If we just put our minds to it.

Speaker 1: It doesn't work.

Speaker 2: Yeah, makes sense.

Speaker 2: Because on one hand, it feels easier to try to do it behaviorally.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 2: And then on the other hand, it reconfirms what we already think about ourselves and each other, which is like, we just need to get our act in order.

Speaker 2: We need to like have willpower push through and, you know, buckle up.

Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: Whether I need to buckle up or my partner needs to buckle up, right.

Speaker 1: But it just compounds the negative system, right?

Speaker 1: Every time.

Speaker 1: Now, by the way, look, again, it's always really important to share if there's domestic violence, any risk of domestic violence, we're talking about like a toxic relationship where you guys are getting so activated, you're disconnected, it feels hopeless.

Speaker 1: In moments of disconnection in relationship, everything I said, let's say is true.

Speaker 1: That means it's going to be really terrifying for both of you when you're disconnected from each other, because love means so much, and there's no good way back to connection.

Speaker 1: People are likely to block exits, like, you know, some small percentage of people, some amount of people, in moments of desperation of disconnection can block exits can block grab people's risk physically make contact with other people.

Speaker 1: And look, everything I said is still true, but we can't do those things.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: So we have to get to a place if there's any domestic violence in your relationship, or if there's a risk of when you talk about your relationship that it can result in domestic violence.

Speaker 1: It is better that both of you work individually first to see if we could get you regulated enough so we can study what happens inside of you inside of your relationship system.

Speaker 1: So that it's contained enough that we don't have to risk you doing something that's really bad and unacceptable.

Speaker 1: Right?

Speaker 1: So look, everything is true.

Speaker 1: And there are just certain things we can't look, we can't be doing right with each other.

Speaker 2: Yeah, right.

Speaker 1: You can't be hitting each other.

Speaker 2: Safety issue.

Speaker 1: This is just a reality, right?

Speaker 1: We got to get to a place that we can study a relationship safely without hurting yourself or each other.

Speaker 2: Right.

Speaker 2: Okay.

Speaker 2: Great.

Speaker 1: Thank you for tuning in.

Speaker 1: Thank you for continuing to support us here at Empathy by listening and watching to our blabbings on about relationship.

Speaker 1: And we're here if we can help.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 2: And thanks for having me, Figs.

Speaker 1: Thank you, Steph.

Speaker 1: It was really good.

Speaker 1: Thank you.

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