Speaker 1: And then, like, you don't get to work out, and then you're gonna fucking die, and then I'm gonna be without you.

Speaker 1: That's not what the family is that I want to see.

Speaker 1: Well, yeah, that makes sense.

Speaker 1: I'm sorry.

Speaker 1: I hear you.

Speaker 1: My name is Figs O'Sullivan.

Speaker 1: And I'm Tilo O'Sullivan.

Speaker 1: We're emotionally focused couples therapists, and we're a couple.

Speaker 1: In an act of sheer bravery.

Speaker 1: Or foolishness.

Speaker 1: We're sharing our own couples therapy sessions with the world.

Speaker 1: Watch or listen to us fight.

Speaker 1: Cry.

Speaker 1: Laugh.

Speaker 1: And repair.

Speaker 1: Then grow in your relationships along with us through the insight we share as couples therapists.

Speaker 1: There's a little kid inside of each of us just reaching out for love and connection.

Speaker 1: Let's begin to reach back out to each other.

Speaker 1: Welcome home.

Speaker 1: This is Come Here to Me.

Speaker 1: So welcome back to Come Here to Me with Figs.

Speaker 1: And Tilo.

Speaker 1: We're really less than excited to share with you our latest therapy session.

Speaker 1: I say latest, you know, we did it a while ago now, to be honest.

Speaker 1: But we had the displeasure of watching it back last night.

Speaker 1: And we want to get this out the way as soon as possible, because I'm sorry we were pathetic.

Speaker 1: It was horrible, you guys.

Speaker 1: Horrible.

Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know what you thought, but I thought we were really kind of useless.

Speaker 1: You do know what I thought, and it was not good.

Speaker 1: Not good.

Speaker 1: So yeah, look, in this couples therapy session, basically, look, Tilo and I get into a negative cycle where, you know, and again, just refresh what that means.

Speaker 1: We're both actually hurting inside, not feeling mad, but we're both actually being reactive, even if we're not aware of it, or even if it's subtle.

Speaker 1: And so we just are perpetuating this ongoing, relentless, stuck negative system.

Speaker 1: But it lasted the entire session.

Speaker 1: Oh, it was 58 and a half minutes.

Speaker 1: It was a brief moment.

Speaker 1: The last, like, 90 seconds we pulled it together.

Speaker 1: So it was really painful to watch, especially, look, as couples therapists, and we help our clients see that they're in a cycle, study the system you're in.

Speaker 1: Look, what's really useful about it is, I'm sure you know yourself, sometimes the best thing is to see what's absolutely terrible, like, you know, and so that you know what the wrong way to do it is in your body.

Speaker 1: And so this was, I'm hoping this session is actually going to be very useful for you, just because it's not like we're being horribly mean to each other, but we really just are not helping ourselves by staying in the content.

Speaker 1: I continue to defend myself and be protective.

Speaker 1: I continue to criticize you.

Speaker 1: And okay, here's why I'm actually really glad that we're releasing this, is two things.

Speaker 1: One is that we're not in that place right now.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: And in so many ways, that was just delicious.

Speaker 1: We're not in that negative cycle.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Right now.

Speaker 1: We're also not in that particular conundrum.

Speaker 1: So it felt kind of transformative, but it felt like actually quite powerful to see, wow, we're not there right now.

Speaker 1: The content of our life is very different.

Speaker 1: A lot of things we're working with, we've actually worked a lot of that stuff out.

Speaker 1: I know.

Speaker 1: And that's like, we get to feel really good about ourselves.

Speaker 1: I'm not as much of a workout.

Speaker 1: You're right.

Speaker 1: And you exercise now, like a little too much.

Speaker 1: Now I've got my paddling obsession.

Speaker 1: Got your first love.

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 1: My mistress, as you call it, when I'm paddling.

Speaker 1: My ocean.

Speaker 1: It's hard to compete with.

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 1: I do my best.

Speaker 1: The other thing I was going to share is that Pigs very lovingly shared, we sort of noticed something that I was doing and I thought it was really valuable for me, just around some of the ways that I can kind of be a superior, vulnerable communicator, but I'm still actually just kind of communicating where you suck and I'm amazing.

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 1: That was really good that you took it that well.

Speaker 1: Oh, wait.

Speaker 1: Oh, now it's starting to land in all sorts of different ways.

Speaker 1: What do you mean?

Speaker 1: I'm really confused now.

Speaker 1: I thought you were saying like, it was good that you got to see, oh, I thought I was being vulnerable, but even while I was being vulnerable, I was really being a superior pants vulnerable.

Speaker 1: Yes.

Speaker 1: Which still actually means we're still in the cycle because it's still going to land on me like, oh, for God's sake, you're telling me I'm shit one again.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: And then of course, what I kept doing, and you know, give me an inch, I'd take a mile, is I kept explaining like the content, why I work as much as I do.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: You know, like I just, every opening to get into, whoa, I'm glad you asked, let me tell you about the details of work and the, you know, so like in every single thing, even though it makes logical sense to me that I would get into it, you could see the whole time I'm talking, you're just this effer's not with me right now.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: And every time you're talking, I'm just like, oh my God, she thinks she's so fucking hot shit right now.

Speaker 1: And so it was just a disaster.

Speaker 1: Come here.

Speaker 1: That's normal.

Speaker 1: But the reason we keep saying it was a disaster, it's just the fact that we did an hour like therapy session, and we didn't get to see the wood for the trees within the whole hour that we were stuck on the inside of this negative system that we were co-creating.

Speaker 1: For real.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: And that we called a protest polka in emotionally focused couples therapy, where one person is hurting inside pursuing for closeness, but there are all their protests that they feel disconnected land, like they're a blamer and criticizing, healing.

Speaker 1: And then the other person is hurting inside feeling like no matter what I do, I'm not enough.

Speaker 1: And so all they managed to do is protest their innocence, explain themselves, defend themselves.

Speaker 1: It wasn't me.

Speaker 1: It was the butler did it.

Speaker 1: Like, you know, and then it just keeps going and going and going.

Speaker 1: And so we were in a protest polka.

Speaker 1: Most important thing, you could see it.

Speaker 1: We failed throughout this entire session.

Speaker 1: Then some of the other great lessons, let me go through them again, because I just want to make sure I say all of these to look out for what I love about this session.

Speaker 1: Another thing I love about it is you can really see the right way to get more connected is not trying to resolve the issues.

Speaker 1: But you could imagine you could imagine it makes sense to go, oh, well, thanks.

Speaker 1: Let's work out how you could work or or let's see if we can work out how we could just be committed to we're in the season of working or, oh, how do we make sure you spend more time with tea?

Speaker 1: Like, you know, there's all these.

Speaker 1: What could you do to feel happy?

Speaker 1: I wonder how you guys could create a solution oriented approach to this, which is tempting as a therapist because people bring up really interesting topics.

Speaker 1: Like, I think we were bringing up quite an interesting topic.

Speaker 1: Oh, well, listen, look at us.

Speaker 1: We were like totally intoxicated with our topic.

Speaker 1: So let's keep talking about the topic.

Speaker 1: And but the problem is that is you miss the real thing that needs to be attended to, which is the emotional system that we're in.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: This protest polka.

Speaker 1: The more alone you feel, the more you blame.

Speaker 1: It doesn't matter like the content of the topic you're blaming.

Speaker 1: The more you do some blaming and chicken or the egg, the more I feel like I'm not enough and I protest my innocence.

Speaker 1: That's the main topic to talk about and see is happening.

Speaker 1: It does.

Speaker 1: All of the stuff you think you're talking about is secondary.

Speaker 1: Okay.

Speaker 1: Now, the other thing, like you're saying, is just the subtlety.

Speaker 1: I actually like that.

Speaker 1: It's subtle.

Speaker 1: I'm not like being like really terribly defensive.

Speaker 1: I'm just explaining myself.

Speaker 1: But it's still just not going to work.

Speaker 1: And you're it's not like you're really saying an asshole thing.

Speaker 1: Bull of every single cellular being is firing with.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: And so we're both just making a voice.

Speaker 1: Absolutely.

Speaker 1: Do you want to say something before we transition to the clip?

Speaker 1: No, I'm just glad that it's short and sweet.

Speaker 1: And listen, you can just feel normalized as you listen to this.

Speaker 1: You know, if you get into this with your partner or you have the partners in the past, and we'll all do it again, right?

Speaker 1: We're talking about something that is not really what we're talking about.

Speaker 2: Right.

Speaker 1: So that content piece is not the cycle that's going on between Figs and I.

Speaker 1: We're all in this together.

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 1: And look, on the other side, we'll talk about exactly what it is you're supposed to do.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Like when you're in something like this, you can't get out of it.

Speaker 1: But here, watch the clip.

Speaker 1: We've really we've asked to reduce the shortness.

Speaker 1: It was going to be like 30 minutes of the session.

Speaker 1: And we said, listen, please.

Speaker 1: We can't let people watch and or listen to 30 minutes of us failing terribly.

Speaker 1: Like, so I'm praying the producer listens to us.

Speaker 1: And you're only about to see or listen to 15 minutes of us doing the same loop, the same negative cycle, the same quote that's spoken over and over and over again, without being able to get on the outside of it and look at it.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: And see if you can see it.

Speaker 1: Like, this is good practice just to see it.

Speaker 1: We're not raging, right?

Speaker 1: I'm criticizing Figs, even though I think I'm being Mrs. Vulnerable Pants and reaching for him.

Speaker 1: There's a couple of things that I'm getting sort of mixed up together, which is I'm trying to reach for him, but I'm also criticizing him as I'm doing that.

Speaker 1: So the intention, this impact thing is happening and it's unsuccessful.

Speaker 1: And yeah, Figs is defending himself.

Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm defending, protest my innocence.

Speaker 1: And all my explaining, even if it seems like it makes sense.

Speaker 1: And even there are moments it's compelling for the therapist.

Speaker 1: You can tell our therapist kind of jumps in, but it's not helpful.

Speaker 1: But here, look, watch the clip and we'll talk to you on the other side.

Speaker 1: And now, unfortunately, to get it there, I mean, you know, the administration of it on a day-to-day basis, there's systems and processes in place.

Speaker 1: It's a normal place that a business gets to.

Speaker 1: It's been successful by just going, you're my second cousin's neighbor.

Speaker 2: Come on board.

Speaker 1: So now I just have to work harder to put in systems and processes in place, which is all the stuff I don't like.

Speaker 1: Where are you trying to go?

Speaker 1: So that I have more time.

Speaker 1: More time for what?

Speaker 1: To be with you and the kids and exercise and swim and be in the ocean and like be able to live the life that we'd like to live.

Speaker 1: And then I'm also trying to create the other side of the business so that it actually can, you know, just there's all sorts of, it's all automated.

Speaker 1: I guess I feel like the parts like that you just said, all the things that you're like, of course, like, and I actually haven't heard you say that really.

Speaker 1: And like you, maybe you've like thrown things out or said them at times, maybe you've said it and I just haven't been listening in the right way.

Speaker 1: But like, it's like, I see you execute on so many different things that have to do with work, but like the things like I really want to exercise or I really want to have, you know, more spaciousness that it's like, I don't know if I see, and it makes sense that if you're trying to create the opportunity for that by digging into work, but I guess I just don't trust you.

Speaker 1: And it's not that I don't trust you.

Speaker 1: I don't have an attachment figure.

Speaker 1: My mom was and is a workaholic, Tom.

Speaker 1: And so that's the model that I have.

Speaker 1: And I guess I'm kind of like, fuck, life is going by really fast.

Speaker 1: I do it too.

Speaker 1: How are we going to slow down?

Speaker 1: Like, it's like, can you help me?

Speaker 1: And instead I feel like I'm the one kind of raising my hand to do that.

Speaker 1: And I barely know how to do it.

Speaker 1: And then you just keep barreling forward being a workaholic.

Speaker 1: Like I'm sure I'm just sounding critical now.

Speaker 1: No, I mean, you know, you know, we're good.

Speaker 1: I mean, you're building a business.

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 1: That's huge.

Speaker 1: Yeah, it just takes, yeah, it takes much more work than, everything takes more work.

Speaker 1: Everything takes more time.

Speaker 1: Everything's more complicated.

Speaker 1: There's just a lot.

Speaker 1: Anyway, I just feel the pressure of what you have to do.

Speaker 1: I think that we're in a negative cycle right now.

Speaker 2: American life, you have to keep working to survive.

Speaker 1: Like, I think this is the cycle and it's not like some escalated crazy thing, but I think I'm not expressing, like, this is the thing that I feel like inside of myself right now is, it's going too fast.

Speaker 1: Can we help slow down together?

Speaker 1: And are we in it together?

Speaker 1: Like, do we see the same outcome?

Speaker 1: And, you know, I'm just here that I don't know how to do this.

Speaker 1: And there's something that feels like love out of reach for me.

Speaker 1: That is a partner saying, let's watch this sunset.

Speaker 1: Let's savor this tea.

Speaker 1: And the fact that I can be the one that initiates that.

Speaker 1: And I'm so poor at, I do it once a year.

Speaker 1: But there's something about that, that even though, and so it helps me to hear like how hard you're working in order to get to a similar goal.

Speaker 1: So let me give you space to address that part of my experience.

Speaker 1: Is that I'm just scared.

Speaker 1: I don't know how to do it.

Speaker 1: And I want it.

Speaker 1: I need your help.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Well, no, thank you.

Speaker 1: It makes sense.

Speaker 1: And obviously I have similar feelings, right?

Speaker 1: We get triggered over different things, but I feel similarly with you, right?

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: I feel you don't help me, right?

Speaker 1: That's my, you know, but I'm, you know, similar, very similar, but just different trigger points, right?

Speaker 2: Okay.

Speaker 2: You know, it's almost like if I have this right too, you're saying help me help us slow down and take in the moment with our kids and not have a frenetic life.

Speaker 2: That's not centered and doesn't have space.

Speaker 2: And figs, the cycle is you say, help me get through this so that we'll have tons of time when the business runs by itself.

Speaker 1: Yeah, no way.

Speaker 1: And well, and just the one, I guess, caveat I would make it.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Like I feel like things, you know, just like a little, I don't think things were this bad a week ago or two weeks ago things.

Speaker 1: I just, my sense is that we're in this short, like it wasn't, you know, and just, you know, Sunday we spend like six or seven hours together.

Speaker 1: And like, I think I spent five hours in the water with you, you know, like, and then the week is just taken off in a way that I don't want my weeks to be like this.

Speaker 1: Like I'm with you.

Speaker 1: I don't want my week to feel like this at all.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Like I work, I got up at like 11 o'clock and worked till four in the morning and then went back to bed.

Speaker 1: I don't want to live like that.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Well, that actually, that was self-care in a weird way because I feel bad.

Speaker 1: I actually do feel better having gotten some things done that just make me feel so overwhelmed that I'd rather go to bed.

Speaker 1: Well, let's just keep, you know, keep the momentum here.

Speaker 1: That makes sense.

Speaker 1: And it's true.

Speaker 1: And our weekends, we both worked.

Speaker 1: I mean, it's been like seven years to get me to have a Sunday off.

Speaker 1: And so now I've got this.

Speaker 1: We have Sundays off.

Speaker 2: We have Sundays off.

Speaker 1: I only do two hours on Saturday, first thing in the morning.

Speaker 1: It's like so cool.

Speaker 1: And now I'm looking forward to it.

Speaker 1: Like people all everywhere have been looking forward to the weekends, which for me, I'm just like, I work seven days a week.

Speaker 1: But wait, hold on.

Speaker 1: I have an idea by the way, Brooklyn.

Speaker 1: Okay.

Speaker 1: Well, I would like to say that like, it, since I've known you, I haven't felt you slow down.

Speaker 1: And I know Figgs was saying that he has many different seasons in his life.

Speaker 1: Before he met me, he was like, when I met Figgs, he was doing CrossFit.

Speaker 1: He was dancing.

Speaker 1: He had all these friends.

Speaker 1: And you know, that, you know, there's a lot of sacrifices to be in a committed relationship and to move from Marin to San Francisco.

Speaker 1: And then to become a father at a time where a lot of his friends weren't becoming fathers.

Speaker 1: No, none of his friends were becoming fathers.

Speaker 1: And that, you know, it was tremendous.

Speaker 1: But like, like what needs to happen?

Speaker 1: Like you're, you're going to be 50 this year.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: And like, oh my God, I'm having trouble breathing.

Speaker 1: Is like, you know, something like the exercise, like we're just putting it off and putting it off.

Speaker 1: And until it's right.

Speaker 1: And then like, I'm going to fucking lose you before, like, because you're working so hard to set up our family.

Speaker 1: And then like, you don't get to work out and you're going to fucking die.

Speaker 1: And then I'm going to be without you.

Speaker 1: That's not what the family is that I want to see.

Speaker 1: Well, yeah, that makes sense.

Speaker 1: I'm sorry.

Speaker 1: Like, I hear you.

Speaker 1: I don't want to die.

Speaker 1: Well, then it's like, but you don't fucking, you don't follow through on, it's like, you'd feel better to like work.

Speaker 1: You'd feel better to sleep if you made it happen with exercise and you can't, it's like, we can't seem to make it happen.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: I was just saying this whole thing feels much more confusing conversation for me.

Speaker 1: Like you're, I would say that's the biggest gap between us.

Speaker 1: You have seen that.

Speaker 2: You seem more clear, Teal, about what needs to happen for you and for both of you.

Speaker 2: And Figs is not, it's more complex in his mind.

Speaker 2: It sounds like.

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 1: It just feels much more complicated.

Speaker 1: And this feels like there's a gap between us in terms of.

Speaker 1: I feel like then you're missing the point for me, which is actually something very simple.

Speaker 1: And maybe I've just been totally convoluted is what about like the little kid part of me that watched the rushing around and had the constant chaos.

Speaker 1: And that that part of me is still here, but can kind of like peek her eyes up and recognize what would it be like if, if I, and I'm constant chaos with my kids.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: And working and work, working, working, working.

Speaker 1: What can, like, I just have a little hand that's reaching out.

Speaker 1: That's like, that just says, can we slow down a tiny bit?

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: I mean, look, this is where like, I try and help you with that in ways that you reject.

Speaker 1: Like I asked you, you know, we talked about this.

Speaker 1: Like if an appointment is at 8 AM, you will never arrive before 8 AM.

Speaker 2: It's only 8 AM or later.

Speaker 1: This is definitely not attending to that.

Speaker 1: Well, doesn't it?

Speaker 1: Like if I asked you like, come like 15 minutes early, like give yourself some time and space.

Speaker 1: So how are you criticizing me?

Speaker 2: Well, no, that's.

Speaker 1: Instead of like seeing my outstretched hand.

Speaker 1: Okay.

Speaker 1: Well, that's not, it's not helping me.

Speaker 1: I'm not asking for help.

Speaker 1: I try and extend invitations to you all the time to slow down and not fill your time.

Speaker 1: Thank you for the help and the invitation.

Speaker 1: Okay.

Speaker 1: I'm asking you for something different.

Speaker 1: Okay.

Speaker 1: I do experience you as just very critical and kind of mean, but.

Speaker 1: Oh, in general?

Speaker 1: Well, right now in this session.

Speaker 2: Great.

Speaker 1: That helps me if you're saying that.

Speaker 1: In this session.

Speaker 1: Okay.

Speaker 1: I am experiencing you kind of like confused and not able to get the reality.

Speaker 2: Not able to get the reality.

Speaker 2: So this is where.

Speaker 1: You have a critical judgment of me and I'm having a critical judgment of you.

Speaker 1: Well, I don't actually have that much of a critical judgment of you.

Speaker 1: I think the way you're experiencing this quote unquote reality is very different to me.

Speaker 1: And they're both true.

Speaker 1: That's all I was trying to say is for me, this is murky and it is confusing.

Speaker 1: Whether there should be or shouldn't be.

Speaker 1: It feels there's lots of different components to this and it's confusing for me.

Speaker 1: And I hear you saying it's just, it's just a very clear, simple thing.

Speaker 1: And then you actually feel a judgment of me, the fact that it is confusing for me, which is unfortunate because I don't want it to be confusing for me, but it is.

Speaker 2: Do you feel she's being critical?

Speaker 2: How do you feel she's critical of you?

Speaker 2: I didn't pick that up.

Speaker 1: Okay.

Speaker 1: Well, I don't know.

Speaker 1: It seems like, you know, she gets angry at me every time I don't see things and understand things the same way she does.

Speaker 1: Like she, you know, I hear you saying you're asking me for something very simple and that's not the way I'm able to hear it right now.

Speaker 1: And you're angry and frustrated with me that I can't hear the simplicity that you think you're, of the message you're delivering.

Speaker 1: I think I just feel what I'm describing in those moments.

Speaker 1: I feel alone.

Speaker 1: I feel like I'm reaching and I feel like I don't have, you know, I'm not having the impact with my words or the ability.

Speaker 1: Here I am trying my hardest to say, look, it's like a little kid reaching out.

Speaker 1: And what I hear instead is I think you're so critical this session.

Speaker 1: And so I'm just like, dang, I must be doing something so wrong.

Speaker 1: Cause I'm really just trying to reach for you from my heart and just say, this is my shit.

Speaker 1: Will you help me?

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Will you help me be my, be the person that helps slow me down?

Speaker 1: It's not a way where it's right before a session.

Speaker 1: Oh, Teal, you did this wrong.

Speaker 1: I'm not talking about that.

Speaker 1: Okay.

Speaker 1: But sweetie, like you're saying these words about you want help, but like, to me, like energetically, the way you're talking and it's good that you're here.

Speaker 1: Yeah, it's great for both of us.

Speaker 1: It's not that like, I don't feel like you're a little kid reaching out.

Speaker 1: That's the key.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: It doesn't sound, it doesn't, I'm not saying that's not, that that's true.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: But I'm just like, to me, it's, it doesn't land like you're a little kid reaching out.

Speaker 1: It lands like you're an angry person criticizing me.

Speaker 1: I'm not saying that's actually true.

Speaker 1: I'm just saying that's, that's the reality that I'm experiencing.

Speaker 1: And you're coming.

Speaker 1: I just feel like, like in this moment, I can't keep trying.

Speaker 1: And I feel like giving up not on the relationship, but I'm just like, okay, you see me in this really negative light.

Speaker 1: And I see myself in a light where I'm like, Hey, could you help walk through this door with me?

Speaker 1: And I'm getting a judgment of myself and like, Hey, why don't you get to sessions?

Speaker 1: 15 minutes fucking early when you are a mom of two kids.

Speaker 1: That's what you're going to focus on right now.

Speaker 1: Well, it's just, it's, it's, it's, it's an exam.

Speaker 2: Hold on.

Speaker 2: It's just one thing missing in this narrative that you just said is you're also coming from this little boy.

Speaker 2: Exactly.

Speaker 2: Absolutely.

Speaker 1: I, yeah.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: And this is, look, I I'm confused.

Speaker 1: It's really confusing for me.

Speaker 1: I hear I'm not doing it right.

Speaker 1: It's not the way I want to do it either, but it's actually really confusing.

Speaker 1: It's every, this session, I'm not able to keep up right now in a way.

Speaker 1: Like I'm not able to, and I hear that and I get it.

Speaker 1: Why that makes you hurt.

Speaker 1: And then see, and then at least to me, you seem more upset with me.

Speaker 1: I think the key word here is defensive and protective.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: In this moment, you felt critic criticized throughout maybe the whole session.

Speaker 1: And, um, that what happens when you feel protected and criticized is you start to get confused about what's happening and then the way that you're defensive or protective starts to look like unavailability to me.

Speaker 1: And.

Speaker 1: You know, I just want to mirror back that I'm trying to bring you close and I feel like I, and I'm judging myself.

Speaker 1: How did I do this?

Speaker 1: How did I push him farther?

Speaker 1: He's feeling confused by me.

Speaker 1: Oh my God.

Speaker 1: We're even farther away from slow mornings than we were when we started the conversation.

Speaker 2: I think you're trying really hard to.

Speaker 1: Thank you.

Speaker 1: I also feel that way.

Speaker 1: And I, I get, you know, maybe I did the thing that I was so afraid of, which is, I felt defensive when we started the session, like I've been a disappointment to you, but I came out swinging and way, and those swings have a big impact for you, you know, whether it's work too hard or you don't exercise enough.

Speaker 1: Like, these are things that land for you in ways that you already.

Speaker 1: Feel bad or confused.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: I'm confused about it.

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 1: And that, that then you see me, you see the critical parts of me, you know, even if I think I'm trying to be the child reaching for you as, you know, as something that's confusing and like, kind of stay away, stop swinging at me.

Speaker 1: And I, and I just feel like shit, we just got into a negative cycle and I just feel so sad.

Speaker 1: Like, I just feel like I miss you so bad.

Speaker 2: And like, I just want to be close to you.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 2: I hear that.

Speaker 2: I've heard that all along.

Speaker 2: Admire you.

Speaker 2: And I'm, I just want you to be with me forever.

Speaker 2: It's what I'm going to help you work out.

Speaker 1: Wow.

Speaker 1: Well, yeah, that was just as painful to have to watch that again, but really valuable just to see, like, I'm always trying to tell my clients that we get in the same fights that everyone else does.

Speaker 1: But here's the key is we probably, even though we didn't do very well in this session, are able to see we're in a system we're in this time of protest polka.

Speaker 1: We're able to see it sooner and then realize what that means, right?

Speaker 1: That we're both hurting and we're both hurting each other, regardless of intention, regardless of how much sense it makes for Teal to explain all the ways she's not being loved the way she needs, regardless of how much sense it makes to me to explain again, like, just how innocent I am.

Speaker 1: Or like, this is what I'm trying to do.

Speaker 1: Let me put this in context.

Speaker 1: Like, all of that stuff keeps making the protest polka, the negative cycle worse.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: You know, and hopefully as couples there, we see it sooner.

Speaker 1: And because then we realize that we're hurting, right?

Speaker 1: Underneath it all, we're just hurting because we're not connected to each other in all these ways that are just so important to both of us, that can soften our hearts to each other quicker.

Speaker 1: And then once our hearts are softer towards each other, now we have an opportunity to be back connected to each other.

Speaker 1: And then from a connected place, it's fireworks.

Speaker 2: It's fireworks, like, and yeah.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: So then once we're in a connected place, then it's going to be much easier to deal then.

Speaker 1: So what should we do about work?

Speaker 1: What should we do about prioritizing family time, et cetera?

Speaker 2: Exactly.

Speaker 1: Yes.

Speaker 1: I feel fireworks for you in this moment.

Speaker 1: The kids are like freaking out.

Speaker 1: Look at the kids.

Speaker 1: They're like, something's going on.

Speaker 1: We had left the kids babysitting with Incredibles 2.

Speaker 1: They were not ready for real fireworks.

Speaker 1: They think it's actually a special effect of the movie.

Speaker 1: They're like, the sound system is so good here.

Speaker 1: Yeah, amazing.

Speaker 1: But anyway, so look, one of the ways I often explain this is that when you get it that there's a system going on and we're both hurting and we're both hurting each other, you want to do that for as little time as possible, right?

Speaker 1: That's your goal.

Speaker 1: Just get out of that negative system as quickly as possible.

Speaker 1: So then it's just the level of behavior and reactivity, the more frustrated we both get, the more confused I get, the more frustrated you get, the more frustrated you get, the more confused I get, the more confused I get, the more frustrated you get.

Speaker 1: Yeah, there's that cycle.

Speaker 1: And I'm sort of like wiggling into what's a natural thing that I could do in myself in that moment.

Speaker 1: I'm frustrated.

Speaker 1: All I can see is my partner's deficiencies, right?

Speaker 1: Could this be a moment of saying like, man, what is really happening?

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 1: And that's this powerful piece that we can all start to tend to in ourselves, right?

Speaker 1: And can we make that sort of connection?

Speaker 1: I am actually really lonely.

Speaker 1: I really love you.

Speaker 1: And yes, I look frustrated.

Speaker 1: Absolutely.

Speaker 1: And that's great, right?

Speaker 1: It's so good to be able to do the individual thing, right?

Speaker 1: Like working out, I'm reactive.

Speaker 1: It must mean I'm hurting because I miss them.

Speaker 1: It's really important to me.

Speaker 1: But in the early stages, it's a lot to ask one person to just own their own stuff.

Speaker 1: That's why I always say that the system is a hyphenated name.

Speaker 1: It's figs-teal.

Speaker 1: And it may seem weird.

Speaker 1: It's easier to see the whole system than to just own your own thing.

Speaker 1: Oh, look how frustrated I am.

Speaker 1: I must be really missing figs.

Speaker 1: Which is really important, but actually an easier step and really pivotal step is we've got to go from I-consciousness to we-consciousness.

Speaker 1: It's not just that I'm frustrated because I'm hurting.

Speaker 1: It's not just figs being protective.

Speaker 1: We must feel powerless inside or feel like he's not good enough.

Speaker 1: It's actually both of those things are true in between the figs-teal at the exact same time.

Speaker 1: And that's the big shift, right?

Speaker 1: That's the biggest shift that we go from this I-consciousness to we-consciousness.

Speaker 1: Look what we are co-creating, right?

Speaker 1: We're both being reactive.

Speaker 1: We're both hurting.

Speaker 1: Then inside of that is the I'm frustrated.

Speaker 1: Oh my God, I really miss him.

Speaker 1: I'm vulnerable.

Speaker 1: And oh my God, look at me defending and explaining.

Speaker 1: I feel really, really powerless.

Speaker 1: There's no way for me to be good enough in this moment with Teal.

Speaker 1: All right.

Speaker 1: So what's our sort of take home?

Speaker 1: The real take home is the order of things really matters.

Speaker 1: If you end up in an argument, the most important thing you should try and do is get out of your own subjective personal experience.

Speaker 1: And it's going to be really hard to do that because you're going to only be able to see it from the other person is threatening me in some way.

Speaker 1: You might not even notice you're under threat, but you are and that you're feeling bad.

Speaker 1: And you're going to have to do your thing, whether you're shut her down or blame or explain or criticize or whatever you do, you're going to be really locked into your subjective experience.

Speaker 1: And so is your partner.

Speaker 1: The quicker you can both see the system that you're co-creating together, the better.

Speaker 1: Look what we are doing.

Speaker 1: Look what we are co-creating.

Speaker 1: We're both hurting.

Speaker 1: And both of the strategies we're both doing consciously and unconsciously are increasing the disconnection and making it harder and harder for us to actually be able to really hear each other and break this pattern of this conversation that's going nowhere.

Speaker 1: The more Teal tells me she's not loved the way she needs to be, the more I end up explaining.

Speaker 1: And you could just see it just doesn't stop throughout this entire session.

Speaker 1: We know we cut the session down.

Speaker 1: She didn't have to watch it.

Speaker 1: But if you watch the whole thing, there's nothing different.

Speaker 1: We just do this over and over and over again.

Speaker 1: So you want to be able to see it when realized.

Speaker 1: Number one, see the system.

Speaker 1: Two, then you want to get what the vulnerable feelings are deep down inside.

Speaker 1: The only reason we're doing it really is because we're both hurting.

Speaker 1: Why are we hurting?

Speaker 1: Because we love each other so much.

Speaker 1: That's right.

Speaker 1: So good take home is what's our system?

Speaker 1: And then secondly, is what's happening inside for me?

Speaker 1: And how am I responding on the outside?

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: And the same thing for your partner.

Speaker 1: You can make sense of them.

Speaker 1: You see your partner in a new light, right?

Speaker 1: Oh, so they're not just being defensive and unavailable.

Speaker 1: They're actually really hurting because they feel like there's no way for them to actually meet my needs right now.

Speaker 1: The reactivity that they're presenting, their protests that they're presenting me is born out of the way they're actually in a really difficult situation emotionally because of how important my acceptance of them or me being happy with them is.

Speaker 1: And of course, the same is true the other way.

Speaker 1: Feels not actually just angry and frustrated and critical.

Speaker 1: She looks that way when deep down inside, she's really hurting and longing to feel sad and abandoned and longing to be connected with me.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: So it's really good now.

Speaker 1: Once you see it, both of us, we're both hurting.

Speaker 1: We're both hurting each other.

Speaker 1: We can actually see what we're both doing.

Speaker 1: Beautiful.

Speaker 1: So powerful.

Speaker 1: That's just the best.

Speaker 1: And I love what you said, two things.

Speaker 1: Just about, you know, once we're in that more connected place, we're masterminds.

Speaker 2: We know how to be creative.

Speaker 1: We can solve any problems.

Speaker 1: Problems are easy to solve once you're connected with each other.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: So yeah, like prioritize getting reconnected emotionally.

Speaker 1: And then I tell you the same problem that seemed impossible, you'll be able to solve it.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Thanks for you.

Speaker 1: It was really helpful to watch it.

Speaker 1: Thank you.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: And I just want to say, even though we're kind of berating ourselves, Oh my gosh, you're in this negative cycle, negative cycle, negative cycle.

Speaker 1: There's also, it's kind of lovable and sad.

Speaker 1: And, you know, I just want us to remind people that even, you know, yes, Figs and I behave poorly quite often and, you know, we come out of it.

Speaker 1: And it's also kind of sad and lovable as I rewatched too.

Speaker 1: It was annoying, but also kind of.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: It's great to see that.

Speaker 1: Look, we're just like everyone else.

Speaker 1: There's some period of time because we're so important to each other.

Speaker 1: We cannot get out of the cycle.

Speaker 1: The cycle is always a retroactive diagnosis.

Speaker 1: The work starts when you're in it.

Speaker 1: And now you're on your way, you've worked to get out of it, which we did.

Speaker 1: Thanks everyone.

Speaker 1: We'll see you or hear you can hear us.

Speaker 1: You see us.

Speaker 1: We don't actually see you.

Speaker 1: Should be quiet.

Speaker 1: We feel you.

Speaker 1: Yes.

Speaker 1: We'll feel you next time.

Speaker 1: We'll feel you later alligator.

Speaker 1: Okay.

Speaker 2: Thank you.

Speaker 1: This was Come Here To Me.

Speaker 1: Relationship experts walk the talk.

Speaker 1: Visit ComeHereToMePodcast.com for episode transcripts, social media links, and to subscribe to the mailing list.

Speaker 1: If you or someone you love are struggling in your relationship or just want to work on making things that little bit better, visit us at Empathy.com.

Speaker 1: That's empathy with an I on the end, not a Y on the end.

Speaker 1: We've got quizzes, courses, videos, articles, and free consultations for couples counseling or for relationship coaching.

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