Speaker 1: And then I feel really alone in everything that I do.

Speaker 2: I have no modesty.

Speaker 2: But I'm a son of an alcoholic.

Speaker 2: No, no, no.

Speaker 2: Successful relationship.

Speaker 1: Let me be perfectly straight with you.

Speaker 1: Did you get hurt too?

Speaker 1: You come here to me.

Speaker 1: So, welcome back listeners and viewers to Come Here To Me and the Couples Therapy Work Series.

Speaker 1: Today, it's myself, Figs O'Sullivan.

Speaker 1: I'm joined again by couples therapist and individual therapist extraordinaire, Karen Gourdin.

Speaker 1: I don't know why you want to be called Gourdin from now on.

Speaker 1: I think it's a little French sophistication, but I'll do it because you asked.

Speaker 2: Just trying to figure out how to sound cooler than I am.

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 1: But I like it.

Speaker 1: But yeah, I know we said today we would talk a little bit about explaining empathy.

Speaker 1: It's the name of our company.

Speaker 1: Why do we call it that?

Speaker 1: What is it that is an empathic experience for a couple?

Speaker 1: But before we dive into that, speaking of empathy, I guess I should give like a couple of seconds to having some interest in how you're feeling.

Speaker 1: Karen, should I?

Speaker 2: Uh-oh.

Speaker 2: I didn't see that one coming.

Speaker 1: Oh, really?

Speaker 1: Oh, no.

Speaker 2: Well, I'm going through a breakup, so I'm not feeling great.

Speaker 1: I didn't.

Speaker 1: I thought I thought the breakup was averted.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 2: Well, I'm so sorry, but it's because I'm getting better at boundaries.

Speaker 2: So now it doesn't take me instead of it taking two and a half years to figure something out.

Speaker 2: It only takes me a few months.

Speaker 1: Oh, well, I'm sorry.

Speaker 1: Like, good for you that you're getting better at boundaries.

Speaker 1: And it's always heartbreaking.

Speaker 2: Well, it's hard.

Speaker 2: But you know, what's interesting is when I'm going through a breakup, which, you know, it's it makes me a better therapist because my heart is so open that everything that somebody is feeling, I'm just like resonating so deeply with like how hard it is to be in relationship and how what a risk it is that we take.

Speaker 2: And how it is to open our hearts and then get disappointed or find that somebody can't really attune to us.

Speaker 2: And and also just the struggle of being a pursuer in relationship.

Speaker 2: And like, really, I'm really feeling my pursuers this week.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Would you want it, by the way, for our listeners?

Speaker 1: I'm blessed.

Speaker 1: But I want I want both of us to catch each other on this.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Like pursuer is jargon.

Speaker 2: Right.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Help me as well.

Speaker 1: And I'll help you in jargon.

Speaker 1: Like, what do you mean when you say and this is like, I feel bad.

Speaker 1: I don't want to lose, though, like connection with your heart and what you're feeling right now.

Speaker 1: But maybe you can explain a little bit more what you mean by your you're really in touch with your pursuer parts.

Speaker 1: Totally.

Speaker 2: So what I mean when I say that is I'm in touch with when I'm in relationship, how deeply I want somebody to help me have the experience of the fact that I matter to them and I am a priority to them more than anything else.

Speaker 2: And when I feel like I'm not a priority and I don't matter, it's the deepest wound I have.

Speaker 2: And it's extremely painful.

Speaker 2: And it brings out my most reactive self.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: So slow down.

Speaker 1: Slow down.

Speaker 1: Because it's really important.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: And again, let's be clear.

Speaker 2: Slow me down.

Speaker 1: You have boundaries now.

Speaker 1: I don't like if this conversation, which, look, we didn't plan this.

Speaker 1: All right.

Speaker 1: Your feelings of what you're going through.

Speaker 1: But let's like even what you just said, being a pursuer, let's say there was three distinct things.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Well, you know, for let's say there's the expectation of the other that I'll be a priority to them, that I'll matter to them.

Speaker 1: But locked inside of that actual expectation of other is what the deepest need is.

Speaker 1: The second thing, what my deepest love need is.

Speaker 1: I long to be a priority.

Speaker 1: I long to matter.

Speaker 1: Yes.

Speaker 1: And then there's the vulnerable feelings that elicits when that's not happening.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Which is like, you know, like you're in it.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: And heartbroken.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: It's so painful.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: And then the fourth thing, it leads to my reactivity, like the behaviors that I will take to protest feeling that way.

Speaker 2: Right.

Speaker 2: So when I feel the sadness, the grief, the fear that I don't matter, what I do is I bring out that protector self of mine.

Speaker 2: Exactly.

Speaker 2: And that person blames and they criticize.

Speaker 2: They say, here's what you're not doing to meet my needs.

Speaker 2: Here's what I need.

Speaker 2: Here's how you're letting me down.

Speaker 2: Here's how you're failing.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: And that's how you say that's how you protect yourself.

Speaker 1: But it's also a pro it's a protest again.

Speaker 1: Like, like, it's so devastating to not feel loved and not matter to not be a priority that you have to do something to not feel that way.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Which is, you know, like you said, you're so good.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: You know, you do this.

Speaker 1: And if you remember back in our days when we used to be first round of meeting every week.

Speaker 1: Well, I called you the pursuit.

Speaker 2: The pursuit is the pursuer you've ever met.

Speaker 2: Which I maintain that title.

Speaker 1: Well, I actually.

Speaker 1: Well, look, you really have great awareness of what you're doing.

Speaker 1: It's amazing.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: because that's the first step of at least, look, we're not gonna change who we are, right?

Speaker 1: But at least you know, look, this is my vulnerability, right?

Speaker 1: This is the longing I have.

Speaker 1: This is the pain I feel inside when it's not being met.

Speaker 1: And this is the way I react.

Speaker 1: Like, that's phenomenal.

Speaker 2: But it's like, it's in a way, it's almost worse.

Speaker 2: It's like the worst curse to be a couples therapist because I hear myself in the present moment doing the reactive things that I know are going to push my partner further away.

Speaker 2: And I have a whole map in my head and I know I'm only doing this because I'm protesting the disconnection.

Speaker 2: And I'm doing it in such a way that I can't help myself in this moment from criticizing this person.

Speaker 2: And I know that that result is gonna push them farther, but I can't help myself.

Speaker 2: So I see what I'm doing in real time.

Speaker 2: And it's a curse because I can't stop myself, but I can reflect on it and see it pretty quickly afterwards.

Speaker 1: Well, it's brilliant, right?

Speaker 2: That's the difference.

Speaker 1: Well, yeah, but that's the thing, right?

Speaker 1: This is one of the hardest concepts I try and, you know, teaching, like teaching, trying to help like clients to get, listeners to get.

Speaker 1: And obviously therapists that are training to be good couples therapists is that the moment is lost.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: There is, and this is like the way I used to describe it, which of course the neurobiology is more complicated than this.

Speaker 1: But the way we used to understand it is your neocortex is six seconds behind your amygdala.

Speaker 1: If you get really activated into being scared, right?

Speaker 1: Which attachment not being loved is like a really scary feeling, right?

Speaker 1: And so you have at least six seconds that you're not gonna be able to stop your reactivity.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Right, so this is what I always say, the moment is lost.

Speaker 1: Like I really, I'm always trying to beg people, couples stop trying to be good and have zero reactivity cause you're not gonna succeed.

Speaker 1: You'll always have six beats of time, whether that's six seconds, six minutes, six hours, six days, we wanna get it as close to six seconds as possible that you're hurting.

Speaker 1: Both of you are hurting and both of you are reacting.

Speaker 1: And we just wanna get to the seventh beat of time.

Speaker 1: And the seventh beat of time is where, oh my God, I see what I'm doing and you're doing and we're both hurting each other and neither of us can stop doing it.

Speaker 1: And we do the come here, no, you come here and we love the shit out of each other, right?

Speaker 1: And that's, look, but that doesn't always, it doesn't always work, right?

Speaker 2: So- And I also think that like, I mean, for my personal experience, I don't think I'm capable of regulating myself back to a normal- Right.

Speaker 2: Rational, reasonable place in six seconds.

Speaker 2: I think I'm probably somebody that needs like a couple of hours.

Speaker 1: Yeah, and come here, and that's what makes you a great therapist, right?

Speaker 1: Because look, most people are out there in the world thinking, I don't know, they have an image of there's some world of people that they're not feeling abandoned, not prioritized and they're not like, you know, like when their partner goes to bed at night, they're not putting their hand in a warm bowl of water so they piss themselves in reactivity, right?

Speaker 1: You know what I mean?

Speaker 1: They're not slashing tires or blaming, criticizing, you know, suggesting books their partner should read, right?

Speaker 2: Right, right.

Speaker 1: You know, but almost everybody is, everybody gets hurt and everybody has reactivity.

Speaker 1: And it's really amazing that you can normalize that for people.

Speaker 1: It's great.

Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's one of the things that I say to people all the time, like don't even try to not get into a conflict because it's gonna happen.

Speaker 2: Cycles will happen and that's normal.

Speaker 2: It's just, we're trying to help you gain more awareness about what's really going on underneath the reactivity.

Speaker 2: And when you have those experiences of bonding with each other from that deeper place, that the cycles will be less frequent and hopefully less intense because you'll be able to recover faster and repair with each other.

Speaker 1: Exactly, I love that.

Speaker 1: By the way, you know, the way I've been describing it recently is disconnection is a feature, not a bug.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I like that, I like that, yes.

Speaker 1: It's a feature, not a bug, right?

Speaker 1: And what makes that really important is that, look, you're definitely gonna get disconnected.

Speaker 1: Don't be trying to be good.

Speaker 1: Work on how you go from disconnected back to good, right?

Speaker 1: And then what's the main way you do it?

Speaker 1: It's sick and it always sounds so trite.

Speaker 1: You're fighting because you love each other, because you mean so much to each other.

Speaker 1: Now, some fights are outside of a couple's window of tolerance, right?

Speaker 1: Or like, I just cannot tolerate the degree to which I don't feel prioritized or I don't matter.

Speaker 1: And I can't regulate and I can't get out of reactivity.

Speaker 1: And then of course, most likely, like someone will end up choosing someone that I can't tolerate being connected and I have to go away in the intensity of connection.

Speaker 1: So like if you're, this is the thing, right?

Speaker 1: And this, I don't think there's actual research, scientific research on this.

Speaker 1: So take this with a pinch of salt if you want to, dear listeners, right?

Speaker 1: But let's say if you're a six out of 10 unwounding on the pursuer side, like you can feel abandoned.

Speaker 1: I don't matter.

Speaker 1: I'm not a priority.

Speaker 1: You're probably gonna draw to you someone who's a six out of 10 on the, I could feel rejected.

Speaker 1: I'm not good enough.

Speaker 1: Contact is overwhelming and I have to go away.

Speaker 1: And so, because together you actually create balance, even though it's not gonna feel like balance, it's gonna feel really overwhelming and like, this is really bad.

Speaker 1: But together you're actually getting a chance to create the exact circumstances that you could get, both of you could get the exact healing if you can tolerate it, right?

Speaker 2: If you can tolerate it.

Speaker 2: And I think that is the key for myself and for everybody is like, where is that tipping point where it leaves your window of tolerance and you become so dysregulated that it's actually really unhealthy for you?

Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 1: Yeah, well, look, this is where- It's hard to live and it's hard to know.

Speaker 1: It's really hard to know, right?

Speaker 1: But here's my answer to that.

Speaker 1: My answer to that is, and like, you're really in there right now, so feel free, Karen, to say it called bullshit, right?

Speaker 1: You know, right?

Speaker 1: Like the best place to find out is with a third party that is outside of your system.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: That can hold with empathy both of you.

Speaker 1: Hey, you, Karen, I can feel how your heart is totally broken when you, I don't matter, I'm not a priority.

Speaker 1: And your behavior that you don't even want to do, but you can't stop yourself.

Speaker 1: No wonder when your heart's broken that you would blame, criticize, point out what you're doing wrong.

Speaker 1: Of course you would.

Speaker 1: Now, I don't know this fella.

Speaker 1: Do you remember my gesture for your exes?

Speaker 1: Which one?

Speaker 1: Do you remember the- Oh, yeah, that's right.

Speaker 1: Yeah, right, right.

Speaker 1: So this fella, right, you know, right?

Speaker 1: Like I can only begin to imagine he must feel terrible when it looks like you're not happy.

Speaker 1: And I can only begin to imagine some of the behaviors he must have when he feels like, oh my God, there's no way to make Karen happy.

Speaker 1: And so I'm gonna put on my Burning Man chaps and head off to some burner party with a cowboy, like a vast chaps.

Speaker 2: I wish I had a chance to tell you the specifics because you would just, you would be in awe of how much I have recreated the past.

Speaker 1: Oh, man, wow.

Speaker 1: Well, look, look, firstly, yeah, I'm sorry, right?

Speaker 1: And I know it's kind of weird, right, that we're trying to use your moment of pain to kind of as a, both empathize with you, but also as a teaching moment.

Speaker 1: So I don't know if it's like sensitive, right?

Speaker 2: I'm down for it.

Speaker 1: I'm happy to be used as a teacher.

Speaker 1: So, but here's what I was saying, like, look, like if you're like struggling, how do you know this is something salvageable and you could end up closer to each other or the writing's on the wall and you need to like, you know, drop kick each other to the curb, not physically, no drop kicking.

Speaker 1: Like this is a metaphor, right?

Speaker 1: Okay, like, how do you know?

Speaker 1: Well, sit with a third party that knows what they're doing that can reflect the cycle and see if that does calm your limbic systems.

Speaker 1: And in that moment of empathy, which maybe we'll get to explaining, right?

Speaker 1: That empathic experience, that is a threshold moment that you'll either be drawn naturally to fall into each other's arms because now the one that I don't matter, right?

Speaker 1: You're not a priority.

Speaker 1: You're not here.

Speaker 1: It's like, oh my God, you're here.

Speaker 1: And the person that it looks like I'm in trouble with you is like, oh my God, it doesn't look like I'm in trouble.

Speaker 1: And it's safe then for them to come towards.

Speaker 1: And then we wait, we create that experience.

Speaker 1: And now we can see, are you gonna comfort each other there or not?

Speaker 2: So can we actually flesh out that piece?

Speaker 2: Because we're talking about the, what we're calling the pursuer piece, which is the person who feels like, hey, I really wanna matter.

Speaker 2: And I really wanna feel like I'm a priority with you.

Speaker 2: And I really wanna feel like you're there for me.

Speaker 2: And that's what I'm tracking for all the time in a way that's like- When you say you're tracking inside yourself, you mean?

Speaker 2: Inside myself and with that person.

Speaker 2: I'm always looking for clues.

Speaker 1: Oh yeah, you're always asking that question.

Speaker 2: Whether I realize it or not.

Speaker 2: Are we connected?

Speaker 2: Are you here for me?

Speaker 2: Do I matter to you?

Speaker 2: It's like a hypervigilant, like what is it called when they do those like special ops?

Speaker 2: And at night you can see what's going on at night.

Speaker 1: Or like the infrared camera.

Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like that.

Speaker 2: It's like, there's never a time when I cannot see and I'm not tracking.

Speaker 1: Yeah, by the way, I love that.

Speaker 1: I always say there's only two questions that a couple's asking.

Speaker 1: It doesn't matter what you're talking about, politics, sports, brides of New Jersey, whatever the hell those shows are.

Speaker 1: It literally doesn't matter, whatever.

Speaker 1: Like Housewives of New Jersey or whatever it is, right?

Speaker 1: I'm trying to pretend I'm not like a regular watcher and fan.

Speaker 1: Was it Brides of New Jersey?

Speaker 2: Is that a show, Brides of New Jersey?

Speaker 1: No, no, it's actually Housewives, right?

Speaker 1: There's Housewives of New Jersey, Miami.

Speaker 1: There's only two questions.

Speaker 1: It doesn't matter what you're talking about.

Speaker 1: You're basically both saying just these two things over and over again.

Speaker 1: The emotional pursuer is saying, are you there?

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Are you there now?

Speaker 1: How about now?

Speaker 1: Where did you go?

Speaker 1: Why are you looking the other way?

Speaker 1: It's just constant, are you there?

Speaker 1: And the other person is asking, am I acceptable now?

Speaker 1: Am I enough now?

Speaker 1: Am I not in trouble now?

Speaker 2: Exactly, exactly.

Speaker 1: And so this is, like, you remember in Silicon Valley, like, I can't remember your man's name, the really funny Asian startup founder, and he created an app that was hotdog.

Speaker 1: It could tell if something was a hotdog or not a hotdog.

Speaker 1: That was all it could do.

Speaker 1: Like, if it was a hotdog, it could tell you it was a hotdog.

Speaker 1: If it wasn't a hotdog, it would just say, that's not a hotdog.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: I want to build an app that it just does a translation for people.

Speaker 1: Like, is what you're saying, even though you just thought you were telling us your opinion of Donald Trump, are you actually saying to your partner, are you there for me?

Speaker 1: Or are you asking your partner, am I enough for you?

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 1: Because it basically comes down to, that's all you're ever communicating to each other.

Speaker 2: Those are the only two questions ever, ever, ever, no matter what the content is.

Speaker 2: It's just like drag and drop content.

Speaker 2: It's like your iPhone, you can put a different cover on it, and it can seem like it's a different phone, and it's always the same fricking phone.

Speaker 1: I love that.

Speaker 2: I really like your drag and drop.

Speaker 1: Obie, don't mind, I've actually used that this week since you said it, drag and drop.

Speaker 2: I use it all the time, and I steal your stuff all the time.

Speaker 2: I am a brazen fan of everything you've ever said to me.

Speaker 1: Yeah, but this is really important, right?

Speaker 1: It's really important, because this is like people come in and they go, hey, listen, we've got to work out who does the dishes.

Speaker 1: And then, so it's going to be very confusing for them when we say, look, I know you think the top question to answer right now is who's going to do the dishes tonight, but actually, we have to see inside the issue of who washes the dishes.

Speaker 1: One of you is asking, are you there for me?

Speaker 1: And the other is asking, am I enough for you?

Speaker 1: And there's variations of those questions, right?

Speaker 1: But they're the two primary questions.

Speaker 1: Now, so sit with someone that can help you see what the deeper underlying thing is, bring it to this threshold of empathic experience, and then you'll either from that place, choose to comfort each other and be connected to each other and learn to do it over and over again, or you do like a two-way fist bump with each other and you say goodbye.

Speaker 2: Right, but I want you to talk a little bit more about the other side of it, the are you enough for me?

Speaker 2: Because what happened with- I don't know anything about that side.

Speaker 2: What's that?

Speaker 1: I said, I know nothing about that side.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 2: See, that's the beauty of this, is because I am so the, do I matter?

Speaker 2: And you are so the, am I enough?

Speaker 1: Yeah, but listen, I'm totally bonkers.

Speaker 1: I'm totally mental.

Speaker 2: And so am I.

Speaker 2: So we can talk about it.

Speaker 1: Yeah, but listen, but I'm even more mental than you, because- I don't believe you.

Speaker 1: No, listen, because, no, because I do both.

Speaker 1: Like, you know what Teal calls me a lot now?

Speaker 1: She calls me a pursuer bitch.

Speaker 2: Oh, no.

Speaker 1: Because I have, like, I keep wanting to write this article about comparing relationship, like how to have a good relationship to technical trading.

Speaker 1: So, like, on the short-term timeframe, my pattern is often to be the pursuer.

Speaker 1: Like, if there's no milk in the fridge, how come, like, how come you don't care about me?

Speaker 1: You know tea is important to me.

Speaker 1: I don't feel like I matter enough.

Speaker 1: I already, I'm like, what a pursuer bitch I am.

Speaker 1: I really am.

Speaker 1: But on the longer timeframe, the deeper one, I'm definitely what we refer to an emotionally focused couples therapy.

Speaker 1: The opposite of the pursuer, the other side, which is I'm the emotional withdrawer.

Speaker 2: Right.

Speaker 1: And the emotion withdrawer, what that feels like inside.

Speaker 1: So, like, when, when, like, Teal is feeling I'm not there for her, she doesn't matter to me.

Speaker 1: She's not a priority to me, right?

Speaker 1: I don't want her.

Speaker 1: I don't care about her feelings.

Speaker 1: When she's having those feelings, I, what I hear, the main message I hear, no matter how well she crafts the information to me, I hear figs, you're a failure, you're a disappointment, you are unacceptable, you're really unworthy.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: And, and then I have this, like, image where I'm so bad, what I should do is leave this life.

Speaker 1: I'm not going to commit suicide because I'm too much of a chicken, but I should go move to Alaska to some tiny town.

Speaker 2: But you already live in Hawaii, so that doesn't sound that extreme.

Speaker 1: Well, I know, but I was going to pack groceries and read novels, not talk to anyone, not make eye contact because I don't, I'm not worthy.

Speaker 1: But, but I ended up feeling so bad that my behavior, so deep inside the longing, so if I look at the negative, the four things I described, right?

Speaker 1: I see Teal as being too much.

Speaker 1: She's on, it's impossible to make her happy, right?

Speaker 1: You know, she's a complainer, she's a blamer, right?

Speaker 1: She doesn't make any sense, right?

Speaker 1: There's the negative view of her, but I'm not feeling like I'm acceptable.

Speaker 1: I'm longing to be enough.

Speaker 1: And when that's not there, I feel ashamed.

Speaker 1: I feel powerless.

Speaker 1: I feel bad about myself, hopeless.

Speaker 1: I feel so defeated.

Speaker 1: My whole body feels heavy.

Speaker 1: And then what do I do?

Speaker 1: Whereas the pursuer is more likely to move towards, I'm now going to shut down or defend myself.

Speaker 1: In the early rounds, I might defend myself, but eventually I'm just going to shut down under the weight of how bad I am.

Speaker 1: And I'm going to turn away and be unavailable for six beats of time.

Speaker 1: Whether that's six minutes, six hours, six seconds, six minutes, six hours, six days, right?

Speaker 1: Where I'm just so depressed.

Speaker 1: And this is the crazy thing, right?

Speaker 1: So just like you, Karen, where like I'm actually longing to be close to you, but as the emotional pursuer, but you look like I'm just so disappointed in you.

Speaker 1: I'm devastated inside because being enough for Teal, my wife, right?

Speaker 1: Means so much to me.

Speaker 1: Like, but on the outside, I look like I don't care because I am gone.

Speaker 1: I'm emotionally just out, right?

Speaker 1: Just totally gone inwards.

Speaker 1: And I, you know, so it confirms for her, the outward presentation confirms for her.

Speaker 1: I don't matter.

Speaker 1: I'm not a priority.

Speaker 1: I've got, I'm now even more devastated and sad and alone.

Speaker 1: And so it makes sense.

Speaker 1: She will do more of, let me now put a note under the door of how shit you are.

Speaker 2: Right?

Speaker 1: Right?

Speaker 1: Not that that's what her intention is to try and connect.

Speaker 1: And so, yeah, I don't know.

Speaker 1: Does that, how is that for explaining a little bit of the withdrawals?

Speaker 2: Totally.

Speaker 2: And I, yes, it's a really good explanation.

Speaker 2: And what I'm aware of right now, because of this moment I'm in, the pain that I'm feeling is how stuck people get because the pursuer, the one who just wants to protest, like, hey, I just want to matter to you.

Speaker 2: When they criticize to try to get their protest heard, hey, where are you?

Speaker 2: Can you come closer?

Speaker 2: Can you tell me that I matter?

Speaker 2: The withdrawer, the person on the receiving end of it, they're feeling like it's really painful when I feel like I'm being disapproved of.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 2: And when I feel like I'm being disapproved of, then I'm going to defend myself, probably in a way that's going to hurt you because I'm going to tell you that you're too much and that you can never be pleased, like you were just saying happens with you in the deal, or I'm going to completely shut down and go away.

Speaker 2: And then what's the pursuer left with, but even more of a sense of I'm completely alone and I was right, I don't matter to you.

Speaker 2: And then they're left with this question, which I hear so much from my couples, from pursuers, is how am I supposed to tell this person how I feel?

Speaker 2: Because when I say it, they feel so shut down.

Speaker 2: They feel so criticized.

Speaker 2: They feel like they're not enough.

Speaker 2: And so they can't hear it and they go away.

Speaker 1: And that's the most- Yeah, look, that's a brilliant description, right, of the way a couple gets stuck and all couples on some degree get stuck that way.

Speaker 1: This is the thing, remember, there isn't some island of people living that don't get stuck this way that you didn't get invited to, right?

Speaker 1: Everybody that loves each other gets stuck this way, right?

Speaker 1: So there might be slight variation, but everybody gets stuck this way, right?

Speaker 1: So it's normal.

Speaker 2: And let me remind you of, this is one of the places where I have stolen from you, one of your brilliant metaphors that you gave me a few years ago, which was, you could totally hop off this train and jump off another one.

Speaker 2: And that train at first is gonna be like, oh, so this is like an amazing train.

Speaker 2: The upholstery is better, the design is better, it runs smoother, the view's nicer.

Speaker 2: This is like such a better train.

Speaker 2: It's amazing.

Speaker 2: And at some point you're gonna hit a bump and you're gonna be like, oh shit, it's the same damn train.

Speaker 1: Exactly, yeah, you can't escape.

Speaker 1: You're gonna co-create this dynamic with, like you have an opportunity with the present person, sorry, like to have an all needs met moment, right?

Speaker 1: And if you just didn't work out this one, you're gonna arrive at the same opportunity in your next relationship, right?

Speaker 1: Now, here, let me just, there's a couple of things, let me say a couple of things, right?

Speaker 1: It's really great to realize how many different little parts there are to this.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: It is really hard for, let's say, firstly, the pursuer to realize, like you said, that the request for my needs to be met, I need to matter to you, please help me feel like I'm important to you.

Speaker 1: It's not a bad thing to say, in and of itself, you write it down, it's not a bad thing to say, but here's the reality of the impact, right?

Speaker 1: Your emotionally sensitive partner, even though you don't think they are, they're very sensitive to being good enough.

Speaker 2: Right.

Speaker 1: And your request, what all they hear is, in that request, it translates to, I am currently, in the past, currently, and will in the future, fail to meet your needs.

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 1: And they're devastated.

Speaker 2: Exactly.

Speaker 1: So, and then let's do it the other way around.

Speaker 1: So look, you can, and this is what I always say to people, right, like, you can go, but hey, I should be able to ask for my needs to be met.

Speaker 1: And I'm like, listen, don't be angry, right, that the sun sets in the West, like it fricking sets in the West.

Speaker 1: Like, what are you gonna do, fight nature or just accept it?

Speaker 1: Like, it is what it is, right?

Speaker 1: When you make a request for your needs to be met, while you're actually hurting and you don't, you're not deescalated, you're basically, how it's gonna land is your partner's gonna feel like you're telling them they're a disappointment and they're gonna fail forever.

Speaker 1: And it's really overwhelming for them.

Speaker 1: No wonder they defend themselves or they shut down.

Speaker 1: Right, now, when a person, like the most of which you are, is hurting and they defend themselves or they shut down, they may, it may make logical sense if someone said, why did you only make one cup of coffee?

Speaker 1: And I say, hey, listen, I was trying to help you sleep in.

Speaker 1: Totally logical thing to say, but how does that sentence actually land on the emotional pursuer?

Speaker 1: It's like you told them, you have no right to feel your feelings.

Speaker 1: And now that you did share your feelings, I'm going to double down on informing you, they don't matter.

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 1: Right, and so no wonder, right, that the emotional pursuer would be even, they would have gotten even more confirmation, I don't matter, I'm not a priority.

Speaker 2: And simultaneously, no wonder it's so hard for the pursuer to believe that the withdrawer is also in pain, that they actually could feel like they're not good enough and that hurts them because they're so used to the defensive posture or the withdrawal that they don't, it doesn't even occur to them that their partner is also in pain.

Speaker 1: Yeah, I must be honest, a lot of withdrawers, that doesn't even occur to themselves they're in pain.

Speaker 1: Yeah, right.

Speaker 1: So that's the thing, and that's probably one of the most magical things about a mostly focused couples therapy, when we do actually, through validating the withdrawer, like again, it makes sense how you would defend yourself, of course you would shut down, but that must be hard that they're disappointed in you.

Speaker 1: Like all of a sudden, not by like pressing too hard, just by joining them, and we discover organically that they're actually hurting and then get the share that hurt with the pursuer, right?

Speaker 1: Like, it's like, what?

Speaker 1: It's not that you just ignore me because you don't give a shit, you ignore me because you're devastated inside when you're a disappointment to me.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Right, that's a huge change in understanding what's happening.

Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like, it's a revelation.

Speaker 2: It's like completely earth shattering.

Speaker 1: Well, come here, let me, I just wanna make sure we mentioned them.

Speaker 1: So here's the empathic experience, when we talk about empathy, right?

Speaker 1: A lot of times, so we're gonna tie all this together, right?

Speaker 1: So here's the, there's this key transformational experience that we call de-escalation, right?

Speaker 1: And emotionally focused couples therapy.

Speaker 1: And what that means is we've gotten to a place, right?

Speaker 1: That we can see, we have two separate people, like we talked about last session, and you're two parts of a system, but you only see the system you're co-creating from your subjective experience.

Speaker 1: And the therapist is able to show you, hey, listen, I see the whole system and I feel so sad for the whole system and each of the parts makes sense.

Speaker 1: You accept, validate the vulnerable feelings and the reactive behaviors of both people.

Speaker 1: Would you look at this tragedy you're co-creating together?

Speaker 1: Ouch, for both of you.

Speaker 1: Those words, it's not just to elicit, there's three entities.

Speaker 1: There's each of the two people in the relationship and then there's the system.

Speaker 1: And the key empathic experience we're trying to create is that both people feel empathy for us.

Speaker 1: Not just empathy for myself or not just empathy for the other person, but we feel empathy for us.

Speaker 1: And then there's less like, what is that?

Speaker 1: What is that empathy?

Speaker 1: Is that we are feeling together the pain we're in.

Speaker 1: That empathic experience in and of itself is actually a neutral place, right?

Speaker 1: Just like shame is a neutral place.

Speaker 1: Like say like shame is the shadow side of empathy, right?

Speaker 1: Shame is actually a neutral place where I feel so bad about myself, right?

Speaker 1: Like something bad has happened that has interrupted how I can interact with the world.

Speaker 1: But there's this place that it's neutral before bad stories come in about what that means about me.

Speaker 1: And empathy is a neutral place that is this place that all of a sudden I'm not activated to defend myself anymore and I don't feel threatened by the other person.

Speaker 1: We're both actually hurting and I can feel how we are both hurting, not just me, not just you, both of us.

Speaker 1: And it opens this window that that neutral place of feeling for both of us can be filled with compassion and safety and a willingness to give and receive comfort to each other.

Speaker 1: So this is the thing, this is the amazing thing about our work.

Speaker 1: I don't actually work to create the compassion and the change of behavior to try and make people understand each other.

Speaker 1: I'm just working to get to that neutral place and trusting that once we create that neutral place, it'll be filled, the water will flow, the water of compassion and love.

Speaker 1: And I actually really care about the way you're hurt.

Speaker 1: Well, I care about the way you're hurt.

Speaker 1: It'll just get filled with that.

Speaker 1: Just like, unfortunately, the neutrality of shame, of like the sudden interruption of positive affect, that is shame, gets filled with negative stories.

Speaker 1: We don't actually have to go look for the negative stories.

Speaker 1: They're just going to arrive.

Speaker 1: Anyway, I hope that wasn't too- No, I love that.

Speaker 2: I love that.

Speaker 2: And I think that that is the most important thing that we do in the beginning, right away.

Speaker 2: It's like, you're not a victim of your partner and they're not a victim of you.

Speaker 2: This is a system you're co-creating with each other.

Speaker 2: And like you said, ouch, it is so painful for both of us to be here.

Speaker 2: Look at how much pain we're both in.

Speaker 2: Look at how stuck we got.

Speaker 2: And I love the way you described that as that's all you have to do is get to that place and the empathy arises naturally.

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 1: Well, so yeah, so if we can get to a place, and this is, I don't know, did I use this analogy last week?

Speaker 1: Is it's like, you know, the bubbles, kids, bubbles, you blow bubbles.

Speaker 1: I don't know if you remember.

Speaker 2: I don't think you used it.

Speaker 1: So like, you know, like let's say you blow two bubbles and every now and again, two bubbles come together and instead of bursting, they form one bigger bubble.

Speaker 1: And so you think the two separate bubbles is I, the pursuer, I, Karen, I'm in my pain.

Speaker 1: I'm not loved.

Speaker 1: I'm not prioritized.

Speaker 1: I don't matter.

Speaker 1: Oh, and the other person's the one withholding it.

Speaker 1: So you're in this suffering bubble.

Speaker 1: And let's say I, Figs, the withdrawer, I'm like, no, they're always disappointed.

Speaker 1: There's no way to make them happy.

Speaker 1: There's no point even saying anything.

Speaker 1: I try to defend myself.

Speaker 1: There's no point.

Speaker 1: I feel so powerless and terrible about myself.

Speaker 1: I'm in my separate suffering bubble.

Speaker 1: And what we're trying to do is join those two suffering bubbles together so that they actually now form one shared big suffering bubble.

Speaker 1: Oh, I actually feel now the pain of being like, I don't matter and the pain of like, I'm powerless and not enough.

Speaker 1: And both people, it's all merged together that we feel this pain of our system.

Speaker 1: That's the empathic experience we're trying to create.

Speaker 1: And the reason I'm gonna emphasize this, people do get empathy as a one-way thing.

Speaker 1: Like it's like, oh, you're asking me to feel the other person's feelings.

Speaker 1: That's not it.

Speaker 1: It is part of it, but only a part.

Speaker 1: We need both of you to be feeling your own and the other person so that we have this, we feel empathy for us.

Speaker 1: And that's what tells our limbic system, our nervous system.

Speaker 1: And then we can do all the stuff people wanna do.

Speaker 1: Now we can help, you know, little Karen.

Speaker 1: I get so scared.

Speaker 1: I just wanna be closer to you, right?

Speaker 1: And like, and it's now little Fig, right?

Speaker 1: It is, well, big Fig that's on his way to Alaska can turn around and actually love little Karen, right?

Speaker 1: And then little Fig can say, I can feel so bad about myself.

Speaker 1: And little, like big Karen that wants to tell Figs all the terrible things he does, right?

Speaker 1: She doesn't have to be here.

Speaker 1: And she could actually, look, you are enough Figs.

Speaker 1: And so it's an all does the thing.

Speaker 1: We end up with the possibility of an all needs met moment.

Speaker 1: Now I feel really bad saying that to you in this moment of your life.

Speaker 2: Well, no, it's okay.

Speaker 2: Because I understand that it's a teachable moment and I totally get what you're saying.

Speaker 2: And I'm just trying to inhibit my own personal protest response, which I would say to you if we were in an individual session.

Speaker 1: Yeah, no, go on though.

Speaker 1: I mean, is that all right?

Speaker 1: You can though.

Speaker 1: It's good to, what is the, what comes up?

Speaker 2: Well, what comes up is I think what comes up for a lot of people, which is you can get people to that moment of that limbic rest and that connection, but the next place their mind is gonna go, and it's why people can't stay there is, but how do you solve this unresolvable problem between us that is causing us so much pain?

Speaker 1: Yeah, well, look, well, so here's what, some problems are unresolvable, let's be clear.

Speaker 2: Right, some problems are unresolvable, yeah.

Speaker 1: Yeah, some problems are unresolvable, right?

Speaker 1: You know, I had a partner that smoked pot every day.

Speaker 1: What am I gonna do?

Speaker 1: Like, there's no, we could do all of this emotional work and that was never gonna be okay that their consciousness was altered every day.

Speaker 1: Talking about my pursuer part being activated wasn't even my normal side of the, like, I just like, dude, like, you are gone, like, right?

Speaker 2: And so like- And that's a great example.

Speaker 2: That's a really good example.

Speaker 2: Let's use that one, yeah.

Speaker 1: Yeah, like, look, but I still think it's valuable to get to that place where, look, she was totally unacceptable, how awful, right?

Speaker 1: This is the way she wanted to live her life.

Speaker 1: She's totally unacceptable to me.

Speaker 1: I'm telling her day after day after day, you're not enough, you being you is not enough.

Speaker 1: And she would protest, she would head off with actually one of my coworkers and play video games all night.

Speaker 1: Like, both of them getting these, like, recently divorced and they'd fricking get high together.

Speaker 1: But I understand, right?

Speaker 1: So it's a protest behavior.

Speaker 1: She's doing the things she does to, like, go absent, right, when she's a disappointment.

Speaker 1: And so I felt really alone.

Speaker 1: And so I've got even more grounds to criticize and blame.

Speaker 1: Now, at the very least, we should see that's what's happening so we could at least understand, ow, I feel so bad for you being a disappointment, you being you, and she could, I really get how you end up feeling alone.

Speaker 1: And we could even part holding each other.

Speaker 1: Holding each other.

Speaker 1: Kind of like, I really get how this doesn't work.

Speaker 1: You want to smoke pot, I want to be with someone that is more, like, on the same level.

Speaker 1: I'm like a kid of, like, addiction, and I get, it's too scary to me that you're not here conscious, right?

Speaker 1: But I don't know, like, you hear, like, it's still good to get to that empathic moment, even if at the end of it, we're going to do the fist bump or hug each other and let each other go.

Speaker 1: Because now I can move forward in the world without this bitter story.

Speaker 1: Fucking pot smoker.

Speaker 1: And she can move forward.

Speaker 1: Oh my God, my last partner.

Speaker 1: Meh, meh, meh, meh, meh.

Speaker 2: And to be clear, you can get there on your own, even if you're not doing that in couples therapy.

Speaker 2: Oh, exactly.

Speaker 2: With this understanding.

Speaker 2: So you can actually create that corrective experience for yourself by knowing, okay, this person wasn't trying to hurt me, and they're not bad.

Speaker 2: They're just making choices for their life that they just don't work for me.

Speaker 2: And I can't regulate my nervous system with being with somebody who's making that choice.

Speaker 2: And so it's sad.

Speaker 2: It's sad, and you have to grieve it, but it doesn't mean you're not.

Speaker 1: And look, well, and I think it's actually very important people do this.

Speaker 1: The worst outcome from someone, in my opinion, right, is let's say an emotional pursuer ends a relationship, and now they get to go to yoga class, and they meet their friends, and they go, yep, another fucker, right?

Speaker 1: Like, I just got fucked over again.

Speaker 1: And the worst part, and then let's say the withdrawer walks into the bar, being, again, stereotypical, walks into the bar, and the guys go, hey, haven't seen you in a few months yet.

Speaker 1: Disappointed in my last partner that just couldn't be happy, and everyone goes, yeah, right?

Speaker 1: That's the worst case scenario for both of those, yeah, win, ugh, both of those people.

Speaker 1: Let's say there's those two stories, and then there's the story I just crafted, where, hey, listen, it makes sense you were feeling abandoned, and it makes sense you weren't acceptable, right?

Speaker 1: And whatever brought you to the place that it's outside your window of tolerance, that you get really scared when it looks like you don't matter, and whatever happened in your life that you need to do this other thing in order to be able to regulate your nervous system, right?

Speaker 1: That's so painful, that you were unacceptable, and you were feeling abandoned, ow, right?

Speaker 1: That's still a really healthy thing to do, because that sets you up now to not be bitter, twisted, and actually trust and give love a chance again.

Speaker 2: Right, and absolutely.

Speaker 2: And in addition to that, when you think of the view of yourself, not just the view of the other person, that the pursuer who has that pursuer shame, which is, I'm too much, and no one's ever gonna prioritize me, and I'm never gonna really matter to somebody, that story is so strong that you could easily leave a relationship with that story completely reinforced, and then go into the next.

Speaker 1: Yeah, in a very negative way, which is not true.

Speaker 1: It's actually the most lovable part of you.

Speaker 1: By the way, you're pursuing in relationship is essential.

Speaker 1: We don't wanna stop an emotional pursuer pursuing, right?

Speaker 1: Like, this is like, I love you, and I get really scared when it looks like you're not there.

Speaker 1: And of course, there's two sides of shame, and we go into this.

Speaker 1: Like, one side is I'm not enough, and the other side is I'm too much, right?

Speaker 1: And so, the pursuer's more likely to feel I'm too much, like, just like you said, like, I'm too much again, I'm too much to love, I'm gonna overwhelm someone else, and you walk away with this awful, like, I'm too much shame story.

Speaker 1: And of course, the withdrawer's like, I failed to be enough again, I was unacceptable.

Speaker 1: They walk away with this I'm not enough story.

Speaker 1: And those parts, the parts that feels like they're not enough in the withdrawer, and the part that feels like they're too much in the pursuer, they're actually the most lovable parts of who you are.

Speaker 1: And we need to even, look, even let's say right now, you need an individual therapist, best friend, someone that can see that part of you, and I'm gonna use technical language, and love the fucking shit out of them.

Speaker 1: Because they're not bad parts of you.

Speaker 1: And we don't ever wanna get rid of them.

Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: So, I'm sorry.

Speaker 2: And we wanna keep our hearts open.

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 1: And you seem like you're doing an amazing job at it right now, Karen.

Speaker 2: Well, I mean, it's kind of like required for our work.

Speaker 2: It's like some people carry a briefcase to work and we carry open hearts to work.

Speaker 2: That's like what we have to bring.

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 1: No, and I love that.

Speaker 1: So, often I do my best work when I've had a fight with Teal, and I'm sad and down and like, cause we are just like- Cause your heart's open and tender and fresh.

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 2: It's like you're really in contact with how much pain the people that you're working with are in all the time.

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 1: Well, look, Karen, I thank you so much.

Speaker 1: Look, I get.

Speaker 1: Just being so generous with your heart and your pain, letting the listeners and viewers know about just the way in which you're in touch with the not feeling prioritized, not mattering, how your heart is broken, seeing your own reactivity, even though you see the impact of it.

Speaker 1: And even talking about all that while, I know like you have the negative perspective of the other person, but look at how far you've come, right?

Speaker 1: That all this conversation you've really been able to talk, and this is such an important thing that we'll talk more about, that you've been able to stay in describing experience of self, not story of other.

Speaker 2: Right, right.

Speaker 1: Like, so whatever reactivity you have, right?

Speaker 1: You are able, even though I know you have your six beats of time that you can't control it, but we're in beat seven that you're able to describe your own experience and not just stay in the negative story of the other person, which is just, again, I mean, that's phenomenal, right?

Speaker 1: For a human being to be able to do that, be able to be in the way I'm hurting and not just bag on the other person.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: So I'm sorry you're hurting, but I think you're a really, being a wonderful example and teacher right now in this moment where your heart is breaking.

Speaker 2: Thank you.

Speaker 1: Thank you for sharing.

Speaker 1: Is there anything else you feel is important to share right now?

Speaker 1: Like while you're in this place of such sensitivity?

Speaker 2: I think every now and then I will, I have a couple I'm working with right now who is just briefly there.

Speaker 2: I've been working with them for a long time and they are splitting up.

Speaker 2: And I've been doing some individual sessions with her to support her and with him and with them together to help them in the process.

Speaker 2: And I said to her in a recent individual session, I said, look, I do this all day long with people and I still cannot control my own reactivity.

Speaker 2: I still can't control the fact that I am a pursuer in my relationships and this is how I show up and I can be intense and I can feel like too much and I can get my heart broken.

Speaker 2: And I think that really helps people to know.

Speaker 2: It helps people to know that, like you said earlier, like even the people who are doing this work professionally are not exempt from the pain of relationships and they're not exempt from the wounding of how much we want to be loved and how much we wanna feel loved and acceptable and like we matter to people.

Speaker 1: That's beautiful.

Speaker 2: Yeah, it just helps people to know that they're not alone.

Speaker 1: Yeah, in fact, I say sometimes lightheartedly, but it's true, I only want to hire therapists at Empathy.

Speaker 1: I only wanted to hire traumatized people.

Speaker 1: And of course, what I mean by trauma is just that, look, they are aware that their heart's hurt in love.

Speaker 1: It happened in the past.

Speaker 1: They can feel that you've gotta be able to feel that pain now, right?

Speaker 1: You have to be not have it take over that the session becomes about you, right?

Speaker 1: But yeah, like it's, again, it's an essential feature of being a good couples therapist that your heart is broken in the past and you can access that heartbreak now and feel it with your clients, right?

Speaker 1: And so, again, I always wanna be careful

Speaker 1: about not being, what do you call it, patronizing,

Speaker 1: but I'm very proud of you, Karen,

Speaker 1: even though like in this moment,

Speaker 1: like just, you know, when we first talk,

Speaker 1: like let's say, like, you know,

Speaker 1: we had lots of fun doing the naming your ex

Speaker 1: and go spitting on the ground,

Speaker 1: but you're, you've just, you know, again,

Speaker 1: it's just so clear, your heart is so open

Speaker 1: and you're so wise and an amazing guide for couples

Speaker 1: and really being an incredible example right now

Speaker 1: to how to hold yourself while your heart's breaking.

Speaker 2: Thank you and, you know, that couldn't have happened without the many, many, many, many, many hours that I've spent with you talking about my exes and about the problems with them and you going, reframe, reframe to the system and reframe to what's going on for you and having that happen so many, many, many, many, many times that I started to get it.

Speaker 1: Yeah, it takes interesting repetition, yeah.

Speaker 1: Well, thank you for the acknowledgement.

Speaker 1: And yeah, and again, I just cannot thank you enough for being so open with your internal process.

Speaker 1: So look, we better wrap it up.

Speaker 1: I think I have a session.

Speaker 2: I have a session in one minute.

Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: So we gotta go.

Speaker 1: We are still couples therapists, right?

Speaker 2: We gotta go.

Speaker 1: I love, hey, Karen, so amazing to get to spend this time together.

Speaker 2: Yeah, this was a fun one, I liked it.

Speaker 1: Really, not just a podcast, just as friends and you mean a lot to me.

Speaker 1: My heart is feeling with you and I'm very grateful for you.

Speaker 1: Listeners, viewers, thank you for joining us and we will be back.

Speaker 1: We'll be back.

Speaker 1: All right.

Speaker 1: Okay, bye.

Speaker 1: Bye.

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