Speaker 1: So welcome back everyone to the come here to me podcast, it's another figs and Karen episode.

Speaker 1: She was like, not everyone sees video, right?

Speaker 1: So I think the listener probably heard that.

Speaker 2: That was a thumbs up and a slightly sarcastic smile.

Speaker 1: Yeah, like really enthusiastic smile.

Speaker 1: Yeah, we were just talking before we hit record about how both of us are feeling a little like stretched today.

Speaker 1: But then like, yeah, like, you know, that's life, right?

Speaker 1: And, you know, as couples therapists, we don't always feel 1000% on top of the world when we have to go into a session with a couple.

Speaker 1: So I thought like today might be a good episode for us to what do we call it like self a therapist and maybe just putting a little structure to it and we do like, you know, like a rose and a thorn.

Speaker 1: What are three roses of being a couples therapist?

Speaker 1: And what are three thorns for both of us of being a couples therapist?

Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, just give the listeners and viewers a little insight for those that care to know, like, how do couples therapists do to work?

Speaker 1: Because, you know, I don't know about you, Karen, but I hear all the time, like, how do you like sit with people fighting?

Speaker 1: Or how do you listen to people's problems?

Speaker 1: So, yeah, so maybe it's good just to do behind the scenes behind the scenes.

Speaker 1: Like, what's it actually like?

Speaker 1: What do you like about it?

Speaker 1: What do you not like about it?

Speaker 2: We'll do a like, and then we'll each do a dislike.

Speaker 2: And then we'll each do a like, like that.

Speaker 1: It's good.

Speaker 2: Okay.

Speaker 2: You want to start?

Speaker 1: I don't care.

Speaker 1: I'll start.

Speaker 2: I'll start.

Speaker 1: Okay.

Speaker 2: Okay, one thing that I really like about being a couples therapist is when people show up and they are really escalated, really triggered, upset, feeling hopeless or desperate, and we help organize what's going on between them and reflect it back to them.

Speaker 2: And so they begin to understand and have like a new perspective on what's happening.

Speaker 2: And just that tends to give people a sense of hope, like that organization of, oh, so when you do this, you feel that and then you do that.

Speaker 2: And then she feels this can be very helpful for people.

Speaker 2: And it's very satisfying as a therapist to organize it that way.

Speaker 2: It's like the way I feel when like, my daughter is like makes a mess of the living room.

Speaker 2: And then I come in and I clean it up.

Speaker 2: And I'm like, oh, we like cleaned up.

Speaker 2: We like took something messy and we made it clean.

Speaker 1: That's really good.

Speaker 1: And by the way, I love that.

Speaker 1: It's an interesting now little way to structure it as well inside of this.

Speaker 1: So that's what I like when it's messy and I make it clean.

Speaker 1: Because I, Karen, what do you get?

Speaker 1: I know you said it's satisfying, but how do you understand exactly if I was an alien from another planet, what is so satisfying about that?

Speaker 2: Well, because it makes me think of how I feel when I'm in relationships, and I feel so much pain and confusion about what's happening.

Speaker 2: And so knowing what that feels like, and being able to provide somebody with the clarity of like, hey, look, this is what's really happening.

Speaker 2: Here's what's actually going on between the two of you.

Speaker 2: And it's kind of like what, you know, a lot of what you did for me when we started working together, you know, all those years ago, like, God, that was a long time ago already.

Speaker 2: Um, when I would be like, ah, and you'd be like, no, but here's what's going on.

Speaker 2: Like, right.

Speaker 2: So it feels so good to help just give people that organization and understanding.

Speaker 1: You know, it's great.

Speaker 1: But this is where like, if I said if I was going to hone it down, what you're saying, I, Karen, love to organize things like it helps me feel good when I'm organized, the room is organized.

Speaker 1: And so now for a living, I get to help people organize their relationship, what may look like or feel like chaos at first.

Speaker 1: That is inherently, obviously, it's great that it helps them.

Speaker 1: I'm just like thinking about that slightly differently for a second.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: But actually, just organizing people's experience is just so good, because I love being organized myself.

Speaker 2: And I love having my internal experience organized, right?

Speaker 2: I like understanding why there's a ripple in the lake, right?

Speaker 2: The lake is the lake is smooth.

Speaker 2: And then all of a sudden, there's a ripple.

Speaker 2: And when that happens inside myself, I have to figure it out.

Speaker 2: Like, Whoa, why is there a ripple now?

Speaker 2: So that helps me.

Speaker 2: And then the other the other piece of it is also I just think that I derive a sense of purpose.

Speaker 2: I derive a sense of value from being helpful or of service in some way.

Speaker 2: So it just makes me feel good.

Speaker 2: Like it almost makes me feel like, oh, okay, like free pass to exist today.

Speaker 2: I did something good and helped somebody figure something out.

Speaker 1: Well, by the way, and this is my organizing mind right now, right, is just set, like, I can't help but separate those into two different things, right?

Speaker 1: Like, one is, like, something that looks chaotic, or is disorganized, just organizing, it feels actually really good for me, Karen.

Speaker 1: So like, you come to me with your disorder, like, like, I'm upset, you're upset, we're doing all this stuff together.

Speaker 1: Oh, my God, let me organize this for you.

Speaker 1: Because it actually helps me Karen feel good.

Speaker 1: And then of course, it'll help you feel good.

Speaker 1: And then of course, if it helps you feel good, then I get a second benefit, right?

Speaker 2: Exactly.

Speaker 2: Oh, my God, it feels so good to help other people.

Speaker 2: Yes, exactly.

Speaker 1: And by the way, yeah, this is like separating things out.

Speaker 1: So there are two, there are actually two roses, organizing inherently feels good.

Speaker 1: And I kind of compelled to do it, like in my own life and my house, my relationships, but then helping other people organize.

Speaker 1: And also, like, I get to feel like I really helped other people, which is like, helping other people.

Speaker 1: I think this is true for most people, right?

Speaker 1: This feels really good to give value or be of service to others.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 2: And the darker way to put that is what happens for me is I'm like, cool, I get to exist today.

Speaker 2: Like I deserve existing today.

Speaker 2: I did something good.

Speaker 1: You earned a muffin.

Speaker 1: I earned a muffin.

Speaker 1: Okay, I'll do a third one.

Speaker 2: Okay.

Speaker 2: So what I like the best is when, when a couple is on the edge of a cliff, and they're peering over the side of the cliff and going, holy crap, like our relationship is about to end if we don't do something and helping them to get off of the cliff and understand how they got there.

Speaker 2: And be in that place where they're both really vulnerable, and they see each other's little girl, little boy inside and their own little boy and little girl inside and they really are able to empathize with each other.

Speaker 2: And there's like all this, like, lovey, mushy, good, open heartedness, like those moments.

Speaker 2: I live for those moments.

Speaker 2: It's like, whoa, this is what it's all about.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: I love that.

Speaker 1: So again, so here's what I hear you saying, right, just to make sure I'm getting it.

Speaker 1: And you can tell me right, is you get like, one, like getting to organize people's experience, like you said, and you're actually helping them, but then they actually get to go from chaos, they go from chaos organization, and then you help from that organized place that they actually get the love they both needed in this really lovely, like, kissing each other, crying, right?

Speaker 1: Not to scare anyone for doing a couple therapy, right?

Speaker 1: But those moments, yes, they're both getting the benefit of being in that connection.

Speaker 1: But you as the witness, you also right and like an active witness as the therapist, you are actually also get to feel the magic of that loving repair and connection right alongside them, but not in a creepy way.

Speaker 2: Exactly.

Speaker 2: And I feel so good.

Speaker 1: So great.

Speaker 1: No, it totally makes sense.

Speaker 1: I love that.

Speaker 1: And by the way, I remember this thing.

Speaker 1: Dr. Wayne Dwyer said Dwyer is that his name?

Speaker 1: Wayne Dyer.

Speaker 1: Dyer.

Speaker 1: I knew I was saying it wrong.

Speaker 1: Dyer.

Speaker 1: You know that the giver of kindness, the receiver of kindness and the witness of kindness all derive benefit.

Speaker 2: So it's great.

Speaker 1: Like the two people giving and receiving love, but you actually getting to be the witness and even more powerful that you help organize and bring them to this experience.

Speaker 1: Like your heart gets filled too.

Speaker 1: So beautiful.

Speaker 1: It's amazing.

Speaker 1: I mean, as you know, I often say like, Oh, my God, can you believe we get paid to like, to like get filled up like this, you know, when it works, right?

Speaker 1: It's incredible.

Speaker 2: Exactly.

Speaker 2: And it's like, it's not that every session, you get to have that in every session.

Speaker 2: But when it is there, it is so satisfying.

Speaker 2: And some moments are really big, and you've worked toward them for months.

Speaker 2: And some are kind of like smaller wins that still fill you up, but might not be as kind of fireworks as those specific ones.

Speaker 2: But they're it.

Speaker 2: They're all kind of like, what makes me keep doing, doing the work.

Speaker 1: So beautiful.

Speaker 1: It's good.

Speaker 1: So you just did Three Roses, right?

Speaker 1: So again, just to make sure, because then this is more like therapy.

Speaker 1: But I just want to make sure I got you right.

Speaker 1: Organizing feels inherently good.

Speaker 1: Yes, that organizing is a value to other people, you see it, relax, and that feels good.

Speaker 1: And then you get to actually be sharing these magical repair moments.

Speaker 1: Like taking people from the brink of like, they can't find each other to loving each other so deeply.

Speaker 1: That is just like heart exploding goodness.

Speaker 1: They're three pretty good ones.

Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2: So let's pass it over to you.

Speaker 1: Man, like, how do I top that?

Speaker 2: What are your three?

Speaker 1: Well, I mean, obviously, all of those I share with you.

Speaker 1: Like, I'm going to do what the clients do.

Speaker 1: What Karen said.

Speaker 1: You already said it, why would I have to say it, right?

Speaker 2: You say it with such Irish flair.

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 1: Oh, I'll say it in a leprechaun accent.

Speaker 1: Oh, I love, I love organizing.

Speaker 1: Well, look, here's a couple of different ones.

Speaker 1: I think that maybe they're not different.

Speaker 1: But, you know, like I was saying, like, today, like, I feel really overwhelmed today, right?

Speaker 1: It was just like a lot of like, just personal stuff, like people, guests coming and going from our house, spend the morning cleaning, you know, getting the kids to school.

Speaker 1: You know, just like, you know, therapy sessions.

Speaker 1: What I love about being a therapist, and I do think particularly a couples therapist, is, you know, I often compare it to, it's going to sound obnoxious being like a professional athlete, or being a performer on Broadway, that the whistle is going to go in the game, right, the referee will blow the whistle for the start of the game, or, you know, the curtains going to come up on Broadway.

Speaker 1: And it's just fucking game on.

Speaker 2: Whether you're ready or not.

Speaker 1: No, this is it.

Speaker 1: Like, this is it.

Speaker 1: It is a performance art.

Speaker 1: And I can feel it right now.

Speaker 1: It makes me emotional.

Speaker 1: Like, I gotta fucking show up.

Speaker 1: Like, there's something really compelling about.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: And I just take it so seriously, like that, you know, yeah, the bell rings.

Speaker 1: No matter what I'm feeling like inside, no matter how the couple is presenting in front of me, I just got to do everything I can right now in this hour.

Speaker 1: And now I just I love that call.

Speaker 1: Like when I do other work, like work on the business.

Speaker 1: And, you know, like all the admin, marketing, all that stuff, like, it doesn't have the same compulsion that like, like, I have to be at my 1000% best during this hour.

Speaker 1: So this, it just feels so alive, like, so alive.

Speaker 1: I love that.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 2: And like, no two sessions are alike, right?

Speaker 2: So you're always on your toes.

Speaker 2: And it's always improv.

Speaker 1: It's always improv.

Speaker 1: Now, by the way, you know, with, you know, just like, I know, like, you know, like, you know, we, we have other therapists on our team, obviously, you know, hire them.

Speaker 1: And then I try, I have to water this down.

Speaker 1: I try and instill this approach to therapy and our therapist.

Speaker 1: And I know I can really scare people, right?

Speaker 1: Because I'm really intense.

Speaker 1: Like, listen, like, you're, you're a professional athlete, right?

Speaker 1: Like, this is like a high performance growth mindset.

Speaker 1: Like, you have to show up.

Speaker 1: And I can see sometimes the therapists are like, Hello, what?

Speaker 1: Because, you know, therapists are usually the idea that that is not their mindset.

Speaker 1: That's why, that's why I became a therapist.

Speaker 1: Right?

Speaker 1: You know, so like, but but I actually, I do think of it that way.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: But that's it.

Speaker 2: But this is a really good point, though, of distinction between being an individual therapist and a couples therapist.

Speaker 2: Because couples therapy is what we're talking about.

Speaker 2: And it's different.

Speaker 2: Like, it is not passive.

Speaker 2: It is active, you are actively facilitating, organizing, helping people share with each other, interrupting, redirecting, containing, managing two nervous systems at the same time, like, there's so much going on.

Speaker 2: It is so different than just like that kind of like, movie cliche of the therapist who's just like leaning back in his chair, half asleep, like taking a note here and there.

Speaker 2: Like, that is not what we do.

Speaker 1: What was that like to hear that?

Speaker 1: Right?

Speaker 1: And that you purposely choose to go all the way down to the bottom and then find somehow find the will to lift yourself back up the standing.

Speaker 1: Like, why would you go all the way down to the bottom?

Speaker 1: Like, it doesn't make any sense.

Speaker 1: Like, why would you do that?

Speaker 1: And then when you're down there, why not just collapse?

Speaker 1: Why push yourself all the way back up the top?

Speaker 1: And there are times in couples counseling where the couple, let's say, is fighting in front of me.

Speaker 1: And I'm like, Oh, my God, I have to jump in here.

Speaker 1: Like, I got to do something.

Speaker 1: And I feel like I'm like, I'm at the bottom.

Speaker 1: And I could throw the bar and just go, What was that like to hear?

Speaker 1: What was that like for you?

Speaker 1: I could just like, let them go.

Speaker 1: But I just I love, I like it about myself that I'm compelled to I'm gonna fucking stand up.

Speaker 1: I am going to activate even though it feels terrifying.

Speaker 1: And, and like you said, Karen, like about, I feel like I deserve the muffin.

Speaker 1: And if I don't show up, I feel shit about myself.

Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the other side of it.

Speaker 1: Yeah, I can't do passive.

Speaker 1: If I'm just passive, like, there's no muffins for me.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 2: And then you walk away, like, I didn't earn my muffin.

Speaker 1: I didn't earn my muffin.

Speaker 1: Okay, so that's, that's one, right?

Speaker 1: Just to call to show up be present 1000%.

Speaker 1: It's just magnificent, right?

Speaker 1: Yeah, just know, I always say like couples therapy, no place for cowards cannot be a coward.

Speaker 2: It's true.

Speaker 2: It is really brave getting in the ring there.

Speaker 1: And you can imagine some of our staff, they're like, okay, why do we work here?

Speaker 1: Like, boss man is telling us we can't be cowards.

Speaker 1: I'm terrified.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 2: But terrifying, though, that's the thing.

Speaker 2: Like, it doesn't become less terrifying.

Speaker 1: You know, a second, a second thing that I love about being a therapist is, you know, the way you're saying about the magic when you organize their experience, and they're really loving with each other.

Speaker 1: And we talked about this on our last one about the impossible moments.

Speaker 1: I love the, I love just trusting, bringing people deeper and deeper into how, how devastatingly hopeless they both feel.

Speaker 1: And you can see a masochist.

Speaker 1: No, I'm sorry, I'm not a sadist.

Speaker 1: 405 fever, and then it breaks really suddenly, with them having this huge empathy and compassion for each other, and loving each other in this really sad place.

Speaker 2: Right.

Speaker 1: So that's just like, oh my god, like, at first I used to get a bit high on my own supply about like, look how good I am.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: But now I, you know, I don't luckily, I don't have as much of the ego part of it.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Look, I know how to do a thing.

Speaker 1: And I do a thing.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: But just again, just now, my ego is not as much involved.

Speaker 1: And I can just feel just so beautiful when you get people to stop protecting themselves, and they're just in despair, and they lean on each other.

Speaker 1: And they're crying together, not in yay connection, but in deep, sad connection.

Speaker 1: I, I just, it's the best thing I know how to do as a human being.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 2: But like figs, it's so cool.

Speaker 2: And so brave that you know how to do that.

Speaker 2: And that you do that again and again, because I think that even more than than I do it, you do it like, I think more than anybody, you just go there.

Speaker 2: And you do not stop.

Speaker 2: You're like, No, we're going deep.

Speaker 2: We're going deeper.

Speaker 2: I don't care what you say or think, like, I have a plan.

Speaker 1: We're going to the bottom of the well.

Speaker 1: middle, because that's where they'll find each other and love each other.

Speaker 1: And that's where they need to love each other for the rest of their life.

Speaker 1: So look, doing that with people is incredible.

Speaker 1: Look, it's incredible, right?

Speaker 1: And every couple is a puzzle, a conundrum, how to craft that experience.

Speaker 1: It's always different.

Speaker 1: So I love that.

Speaker 1: I love getting to see people break from their way to protect themselves just to the sadness and loving each other.

Speaker 1: It's just just magical to get to experience that.

Speaker 2: And I have to say that I think that it's the thing that terrifies almost all therapists the most.

Speaker 2: I think a lot of therapists actually actively avoid taking people to those places.

Speaker 2: So I think that really needs to be said as we're talking about that.

Speaker 1: Oh, look, and I don't want to like, yes, 99.99% of therapists are avoiding that not on purpose.

Speaker 1: The clients are avoiding it.

Speaker 1: Right?

Speaker 1: The clients avoided the therapist avoids it.

Speaker 1: Everybody wants to feel better.

Speaker 1: They don't want to feel their feelings better, right?

Speaker 2: But let's talk about that self of therapist part, though, that you as a therapist, have to have, like you said, just a tremendous amount of faith, that where you're taking them is the right place and where they need to go, even though it's painful for them.

Speaker 2: And you have to within yourself have the capacity to withstand that discomfort.

Speaker 1: Absolutely, exactly.

Speaker 1: No, look, yeah, it's really hard to do.

Speaker 1: For most now again, but I think I just have a leg up right and being Irish.

Speaker 1: Dare I say you may have a leg up being like Jewish.

Speaker 1: But seriously, we may have a leg up.

Speaker 1: I noticed that like culturally, like just going like, look, we were willing, you know, the joke about you're in an Irish bar, and they just sang 20 sad songs in a row.

Speaker 1: And then the singer gets on the mic and says, and now for a sad song.

Speaker 1: Like, you know, that where there's a willingness to go into the, I remember when we had no shoes and only one potato for five.

Speaker 1: But like, there's just a willingness to go into pain and suffering.

Speaker 1: It's a part of life, right?

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 2: And I think it's what I think it's what draws a particular kind of therapist to couples therapy, the kind of couples therapy that we do.

Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: So So let me see, what would be a third one.

Speaker 1: So again, if I've organized, I said, the first one is having to perform.

Speaker 1: I love that call.

Speaker 1: I gotta find some strength inside me that makes me feel good about myself.

Speaker 1: Gotta show up 1000% can do it half assed.

Speaker 1: And then to like getting to witness like, like driving people to what is like, transformational experience that is so scary for them to get there scary for me.

Speaker 1: I got to really trust and then to experience this beautiful connection and the depth of that pain.

Speaker 1: That's just most beautiful thing I could ever imagine experiencing.

Speaker 1: I get to do it over and over again with people.

Speaker 1: The third one that I love about being a couples therapist, it kind of goes along with the performance thing.

Speaker 1: Like, yes, the improvising.

Speaker 1: I think it's like, it's just Yeah, performance art.

Speaker 1: It's craft, right?

Speaker 1: It's getting to be deep, confrontational, lovingly.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Being like, I really feel like I get to be my most creative analogies, metaphors, you know, describing people in ways that makes them laugh about themselves.

Speaker 1: Yeah, it's, um, I, yeah, just, just the improvisational nature of it affords me this, like, huge stage, even though there's an audience of two, to be really creative.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: And by the way, like, I even again, I really feel that deeply.

Speaker 1: I like, like, you know, my, my hero as a kid was Gene Kelly.

Speaker 1: Like, you know what I mean?

Speaker 1: Like, if I let's I always say, like, if I had a, let's say, if I, if I wasn't overwhelmed by emotional pain as a kid, like, you know, you would probably I would hope you'd see me as an extra.

Speaker 1: I would have been one of the bunny rabbits in Rihanna's, wouldn't be Rihanna, right?

Speaker 1: Is that how you pronounce her name?

Speaker 2: Rihanna.

Speaker 2: And I don't think they were bunny rabbits.

Speaker 2: I think they were some sort of weird alien creatures.

Speaker 1: Oh, really?

Speaker 1: Is that what they were?

Speaker 2: I don't know, they looked like aliens to me.

Speaker 1: I'm not going to say I would have been the lead.

Speaker 1: But like, I love I just love like creative, like performance, right.

Speaker 1: And so weirdly, as a therapist, I get to do that.

Speaker 1: And I get to like, and I love improv.

Speaker 1: I prefer I love dance, right?

Speaker 1: And I much prefer improvisational dance, the choreography.

Speaker 1: And every therapy session is an improvisational piece of art.

Speaker 1: Again, I know it's going to sound obnoxious to people, but just like a blank canvas, and I get to create with these two people to try and have this transformational experience, like hour after hour after hour, right?

Speaker 2: It's so true.

Speaker 2: And you never have a script and you never know what you're walking into like that.

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 2: With Zoom, like that first second when you see them on the screen, you can feel what's going on.

Speaker 2: And you're like, Oh, okay.

Speaker 2: This is where we are today.

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: By the way, I always was it like someone once that one of my clients said that they think they think of me as Inspector Columbo.

Speaker 1: I look really stupid.

Speaker 1: Really stupid.

Speaker 1: But then you know, Inspector Columbo puts it all together at the end.

Speaker 1: It was the butler.

Speaker 1: But but that like that thing at the start where it looks like we're making I'm making small talk like I'm actually, you know, actually I'm assessing like, what's actually happening inside of both of you in between the two of you right now, but it looks like he's talking about his toenails.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: But actually, you know, where it's that the creation has begun.

Speaker 1: But anyway, so there would be my three, right?

Speaker 1: Like just to be creative, to feel the beauty of the connection, right?

Speaker 1: That is possible by bringing people to their deepest pain together, how deeply they can love each other, right?

Speaker 1: Getting to witness that amazingly powerful.

Speaker 1: I deserve many muffins.

Speaker 1: So many muffins.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: And then, and of course, just like the call to show up, right?

Speaker 1: Just like, answering that call, right?

Speaker 1: The whistle is blown.

Speaker 1: And I just got give it all.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: I love that.

Speaker 1: Okay.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Maybe we'll just do one bad one.

Speaker 2: Okay, I'll share one, which is, I guess, kind of the opposite side of the coin to what we're talking about is those sessions where you are in the stuckness with a couple, and you've not achieved a breakthrough moment.

Speaker 2: And it just feels so stuck.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 2: And you feel that stuckness just as much as they do.

Speaker 2: And I have to work hard sometimes not to get caught in their cycle, and in the stuckness that they feel because it's like, contagious.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 2: You know, so it can be easy to get immersed in it and not then not have the distance, necessarily, to be able to hold the frame of the hope of what's possible for them and where we're going.

Speaker 2: And, and it's, it can just be moments that I feel that way, and then come out of that, or it can be like a whole session where it's like, Oh, my God, we were just so stuck.

Speaker 2: But then a lot of times what happens, though, even in times like that is, then I can end a session and be like, I, I feel like a terrible therapist, and then I'll be down on myself for a while.

Speaker 2: But then a lot of times what happens is, I'll say something like, How was that last session for you in the following week?

Speaker 2: Right.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Like, we're waiting for it to happen, which is really scary.

Speaker 1: I mean, you didn't use the word scary, but I certainly find I get scared.

Speaker 1: And yeah, I can feel bad about myself, like, if we're stuck, and it's not working.

Speaker 1: That's, look, it's just painful, and it should be painful, right?

Speaker 1: Like, that's, and then it's actually that feeling bad and scary energy, then hopefully that, you know, use the transition into whatever it is that's necessary to make that change happen.

Speaker 2: Right, right.

Speaker 2: I want to do better work.

Speaker 2: But yeah, I want to do better work.

Speaker 2: And I want to make a difference.

Speaker 1: It's a, it's a painful place to willingly go into hour after hour, right?

Speaker 1: And addictive.

Speaker 1: I know.

Speaker 1: Yeah, the pain is addictive.

Speaker 2: Well, you want to keep going, because you need to get the muffin.

Speaker 2: It's like, I didn't get it last time, so I got to get it this time.

Speaker 1: Yeah, that place where we're stuck, and it's scary, and I can feel bad that we're not getting that transformation, right?

Speaker 1: That's hard to live in that place.

Speaker 1: So what's worse?

Speaker 1: The hardest thing for me, I think about this a lot.

Speaker 1: The hardest thing for me being a couples therapist is when we're, I'm not in an alliance yet with one or both of the members of the couple.

Speaker 1: And you know, like an alliance, you can just feel it, right?

Speaker 1: When we're all on the same team, you get me, you trust in me, what I'm doing.

Speaker 2: Totally.

Speaker 1: Like, so this is the interesting thing, like, like, it's not about, like, I could have someone who, every time I say something, they say, fuck off, fix, right?

Speaker 1: Like, even you would be like, Jesus, fix, how do you help that person?

Speaker 1: I'm like, I know, listen, they're, they're totally with me, they got, I got them, they got me, that's fine.

Speaker 1: And I could have someone that they seem really agreeable, but they're not, they're not really with me yet.

Speaker 1: Like, you can just feel it, they're not really with me.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: That period of time, and again, part of the craft is to find, get that alliance with both people and then both of them together, and then an alliance with the model that we're working with.

Speaker 1: But that period of time before genuine alliance, they're, they're the hardest, like, I look at my calendar for the week, and I've got, okay, I've got two people that want to do, like, jujitsu with each other, I've got another two people that have knives and baseball, but, like, they wouldn't be the ones I'm scared about.

Speaker 1: Two people that they're not sure about me.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Even if they're the nicest people in the world.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: So, getting to an alliance, that's really vulnerable for me.

Speaker 1: You know, but again, I love it.

Speaker 1: That's part of the craft, right?

Speaker 1: I love it, but I gotta, getting to that place that they trust me and they trust the model, they have some taste of, ah, okay, let's do this together, right?

Speaker 1: And it's not like anyone says that out loud, right?

Speaker 1: Yeah, not having an alliance is really scary and painful.

Speaker 2: I love that one because I totally feel that one too.

Speaker 2: And that's the exact way I would describe it is when you don't have the alliance, you can feel it.

Speaker 2: They don't trust you yet.

Speaker 2: They're not yet convinced that you're the one that can really help them.

Speaker 2: And so, it's like you're still kind of auditioning and you're still in that land of like, yeah, they haven't fully kind of said yes.

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 1: Yeah, that's really vulnerable.

Speaker 1: By the way, just another little add on, you know, what's kind of weird for me since I started doing the videos and the podcast, I now sometimes see people that have seen me on video and some people have seen like, you know, I don't know, 20 or 30 hours of videos or like listen to 30 hours of podcasts.

Speaker 1: And like, they come into sessions and they're like, thanks, my man.

Speaker 1: Like, they're looking at me like they've been in an alliance with me all my life.

Speaker 1: And I actually have to catch up.

Speaker 1: I'm a little like, okay, it's a little weird that you like me and you know me so well.

Speaker 1: And I'm only so there's this kind of a new element now that like being out in the world, like in media.

Speaker 1: Totally.

Speaker 1: Yeah, like, it's kind of funny sometimes that it kind of hits me the other way when they people already start in an alliance and I'm They already trust you.

Speaker 2: You're like a celeb.

Speaker 1: Oh, well, I mean, exactly in my own mind, right?

Speaker 1: Tell my kids.

Speaker 2: Well, in their mind.

Speaker 2: They're like, oh, it's that guy from all the videos.

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 1: But um, but that yeah, that's an interesting difference that it's a little bit more vulnerable for me when they seem feel like they're already in alliance with me and I'm the one that has to catch up.

Speaker 2: But do you feel more pressure like to do better because you think that they already have an idea of how awesome the therapy is going to be?

Speaker 2: Or is that not part of it?

Speaker 2: Like they have they might have an expectation.

Speaker 1: No, I look, it's the same.

Speaker 1: I'll tell you the big vulnerability.

Speaker 1: I was the same thing as this podcast.

Speaker 1: And you know, everybody tells me over and over again.

Speaker 1: Like, I just always worry.

Speaker 1: I'm repeating myself.

Speaker 1: Like if someone is listening to all the podcasts, I myself negative story is like, what value can I possibly give them?

Speaker 1: Right?

Speaker 1: The negative story is you look there.

Speaker 1: People are telling me stuff that I said.

Speaker 1: I'm like, I don't even remember saying that.

Speaker 1: Like you actually know me like you actually know me better than I know me.

Speaker 1: I remember nothing.

Speaker 2: But the reason you think that is because it's so much the water that you're swimming in that you think you have nothing new to say because but you have lost touch in a good in in a way because of how advanced you are in your skill set of where other people are and that what you're saying is absolutely revelatory to them.

Speaker 2: And so when somebody is giving you a revelation to something, you really need to hear because it's a way that they could see out of their pain.

Speaker 2: They don't just want to hear it once.

Speaker 2: They want to hear it a hundred times a thousand times in a thousand different ways to really integrate it and understand it and make them feel better.

Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I mean, look, I need to work on that.

Speaker 1: Like you're saying, I need to work on slowing down.

Speaker 1: A lot of times, as you know, like I'll be saying, oh, I said this before.

Speaker 1: Let me say it very quickly.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: And instead of like speeding past it.

Speaker 1: But yeah, so that would be the only vulnerable thing is.

Speaker 1: I just have that, like if people already know me in a different medium, it can bring up self-doubt.

Speaker 1: Can I really be a value?

Speaker 1: Now, look, I know it's all about experience, information, information.

Speaker 1: You got to you got to have that transformational experience.

Speaker 1: But but that would be the one doubt.

Speaker 1: You know, like vulnerability, it brings up and it's just weird.

Speaker 1: It's just weird when someone's like, look, I got I have I think I've worked for a podcast.

Speaker 1: Teal got me a Zephyr T-shirt.

Speaker 1: It has a picture of my dog on it.

Speaker 1: And when I walked down the road with the T-shirt on my dog, you know, every single person who I don't know is looking at me.

Speaker 1: Oh, sweet man.

Speaker 1: Like, you know, that's a bit vulnerable.

Speaker 1: Listen, I don't know you, you seem to already love me.

Speaker 1: I like your, your positive affect towards me is freaking me out.

Speaker 1: So there's a little bit just like it's vulnerable.

Speaker 1: But people like see me positively, and I don't know them yet.

Speaker 1: It's just a little weird.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: But I think that was good.

Speaker 1: Like, you know, get to talk a little bit about what we love about being therapists.

Speaker 1: And just, you know, for me, Alliance for you stuck, they kind of overlap, right?

Speaker 1: Alliance sometimes, right?

Speaker 1: And that's what that can be what makes the the hours, like, they're some of the most painful, like moments, right?

Speaker 2: Any sense of like, not being effective, or not being at our best, or not seeing the change that we want to see is, is vulnerable for us as therapists and can cast doubt on our skills and our sense of value.

Speaker 2: And that's hard.

Speaker 1: Wait, wait, I know this is bad.

Speaker 1: We're making these I'm making cultural.

Speaker 1: Another reason, though, I think Irish and Jewish, right?

Speaker 1: Like guilt.

Speaker 1: Like, I always said, like a big part of the process is you actually should feel bad afterwards.

Speaker 1: And then whatever I feel bad about, I'm now going to work on like, as I'm like, walking around the park, I'm going to get better at that thing.

Speaker 1: Guilt is helpful.

Speaker 2: Guilt.

Speaker 1: In a small enough dose.

Speaker 2: That's right.

Speaker 2: And also, just since we're talking about the Jewish Irish connection, this is why I knew as soon as I met you that I wanted to work with you, because the self deprecating thing that Irish people do, and Jewish people do is so great, because it's like, it's so disarming.

Speaker 2: And it just, for me, it makes me instantly comfortable.

Speaker 2: I'm like, Okay, I could totally work with this person.

Speaker 2: They're not on an ego trip, like, they're totally willing to, like, talk about how you know, whatever their issue is.

Speaker 2: It's just, yeah, just nice.

Speaker 1: Yeah, well, that's great.

Speaker 1: And likewise, I yeah, I felt a affinity with you instantly.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's also something that really serves you.

Speaker 2: And I know myself in working as a couples therapist, because it puts you on level playing field with the people you're not trying to act like you know better than them.

Speaker 2: It's like I relationships are frickin hard.

Speaker 2: They're hard for me.

Speaker 2: It's not any easier for me.

Speaker 2: I suck at them just as much as everybody else.

Speaker 2: You know, it's, it's all painful.

Speaker 2: And it's like a willingness to go there and to stay there.

Speaker 2: And to make jokes and to joke about the stuff that's so painful and difficult.

Speaker 1: I couldn't have said it better.

Speaker 1: You're so right.

Speaker 1: Thank you, Karen.

Speaker 1: Thanks, babe.

Speaker 1: So true.

Speaker 1: So that was fun.

Speaker 1: It was nice to talk about it.

Speaker 1: I got to feel parts of myself, right?

Speaker 1: Like what I'm passionate about, about doing this work.

Speaker 1: It was really nice.

Speaker 2: Yeah, that was a good one.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Well, thank you listeners, viewers, and we'll see you next time.

Speaker 2: See you next time.

Speaker 1: Cheers.

Speaker 1: Bye.

Speaker 1: Bye.

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