Speaker 1: And then I feel really alone with everything that I do.

Speaker 1: Because I have no money.

Speaker 1: I'm the son of an alcoholic.

Speaker 1: No, no, no.

Speaker 1: Successful relatives and family.

Speaker 1: Let me repeat carefully to you.

Speaker 1: Did you get hurt, Teal?

Speaker 1: You come here to me.

Speaker 1: Welcome to Come Here to Me.

Speaker 1: It's been a long time since we've recorded an episode.

Speaker 1: Sorry about that.

Speaker 1: Myself and Teal definitely kind of lost the mojo on the way we were doing the podcast in the past.

Speaker 1: Where we were actually recording our own couples therapy sessions.

Speaker 1: And then watching them and analyzing them.

Speaker 1: We just found that the actual production of each episode was taking way too much work.

Speaker 1: So we will give you an update.

Speaker 1: Myself and Teal are definitely going to share more about our relationship and our process.

Speaker 1: So that is coming.

Speaker 1: Don't worry if you love those episodes.

Speaker 1: We'll be back.

Speaker 1: But maybe minus an actual therapist.

Speaker 1: And today, this is the first time we're actually launching a new series within the Come Here to Me podcast.

Speaker 1: And it's called Couples Therapy Works.

Speaker 1: And so what we're going to do is myself and sometimes Teal will drop in.

Speaker 1: But it will be myself and some of the therapists on the empathy team.

Speaker 1: We're going to try and talk through the A to Z of what is love, what is relationship, how do you make it work.

Speaker 1: And so we're going to try and talk about it so that we keep you the listeners and the viewers in mind.

Speaker 1: But you also get a little bit of an insight in what it is that we as, you know, attachment focused couples therapy think about and how we try and help you.

Speaker 1: So we're kind of hoping it'll be, you know, really informative and helpful for you to have a better relationship with that in mind.

Speaker 1: I just want to very quickly introduce you to the members of our team that are here with me today.

Speaker 1: And there may be other members in the future that join in.

Speaker 1: I'll make sure to introduce them when there's a new person in each episode.

Speaker 1: But today I'm joined by Max DeFrayne, who's our newest member to the empathy team.

Speaker 1: Welcome, Max.

Speaker 1: Thanks.

Speaker 2: I'm excited to be here.

Speaker 1: It's really great to have you here, both for the episode and as part of empathy.

Speaker 1: I also am joined by Alyssa Gibbons.

Speaker 1: Good to see you, Alyssa.

Speaker 2: Hi.

Speaker 1: Good to see you.

Speaker 1: Thanks for being here.

Speaker 1: And then I'm also joined by Rebecca.

Speaker 1: Rebecca, I misread your name, but Rebecca.

Speaker 1: How did I get Rebecca?

Speaker 1: I guess your first name and last name.

Speaker 1: It's kind of like there's a kind of a Rebecca in there with all the letters.

Speaker 1: But I'm also joined by Raphael Barker, who's the person I've known the longest.

Speaker 1: And I messed and butchered his name for no reason.

Speaker 1: Good to see you, Raphael.

Speaker 1: It's really great to be here.

Speaker 1: And then in the background, we have our superstar producer, Steph Crosley, who's going to help us make sure we stay on track and don't nerd out way too much as therapists and make sure that we keep this where it's actually a value for you trying to make love and relationship work.

Speaker 1: So when we met.

Speaker 1: Just to talk about the possibility of releasing podcast episodes in this format.

Speaker 1: The whole point was we wanted to be able to let members of the public into our process, how we think about couples counseling in a way that would be useful.

Speaker 1: And so the first thing we came to was that, look, there are two main pillars of the work we do as couples therapists that use primarily attachment theory as our, you know, like the need to be emotionally bonded as primary to how we help people.

Speaker 1: And one I've already mentioned is just attachment theory.

Speaker 1: And then the second one is systems theory.

Speaker 1: So today we thought we would just try and do a very general introduction to attachment theory and what it is and lay person's terms.

Speaker 1: And we will share in the show notes like actual access to all of, you know, attachment research for anybody that wants to actually explore the science in more detail about what is attachment theory.

Speaker 1: So today, let's just go through the A to Z of what is attachment.

Speaker 1: A good starting point is so the most famous quote about attachment is by John Bowlby, the person that created or came up with this theory.

Speaker 1: And that quote is we're all subject to the needs to be attached.

Speaker 1: From the cradle to the grave.

Speaker 1: And the first thing is like, what does it mean to be attached?

Speaker 1: You could just substitute that word with we all need to be emotionally bonded.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: So we all need to be emotionally bonded from the cradle to the grave.

Speaker 1: Why?

Speaker 1: Let's just say hypothetically that statement is true.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: So that's the theory.

Speaker 1: Why would it be true?

Speaker 1: At the most basic level, if we just think about why that's true, when you're born from the cradle, the cradle part of that statement, when you're born, your first needs are not food and shelter or an iPhone.

Speaker 1: Or Netflix, right?

Speaker 1: Your first needs are that there's a good enough other on the other side of your birth.

Speaker 1: Because if there isn't a good enough other on the other side of your birth, you will die.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Like just fact, you're not going to like just like, oh, no, I have to go a month without my subscription to Netflix.

Speaker 1: You'll literally die.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Because a dingo will come and eat you.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: So basically, all of your needs in order to survive in the world start with.

Speaker 1: Is there somebody there?

Speaker 1: And in fact, that is so primary that it is it is similar to the way a fish experiences water.

Speaker 1: A fish primary need to survive is there is water.

Speaker 1: But if you were to and don't make fun of me for saying water in an Irish accent.

Speaker 1: I'm not going to do your American water.

Speaker 1: OK, sorry.

Speaker 1: So if you could just imagine when a fish comes is is spawned, I think is a fish spawned.

Speaker 1: Was that what happens with a fish?

Speaker 1: Yeah, that's what you get.

Speaker 1: So when a fish comes into like the ocean or a stream or whatever it is or the little goldfish bowl.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: They don't even know what water is.

Speaker 1: It's so primary.

Speaker 1: It doesn't even rise to the surface of their awareness that I need water.

Speaker 1: It's just everywhere.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: And so if you were to ask like, you know, like a, you know, a 10 year old fish.

Speaker 1: So thank God you're surrounded by water.

Speaker 1: They would look at you and they'd go, what are you even talking about?

Speaker 1: Like, what is water?

Speaker 1: It doesn't even make any sense.

Speaker 1: And so that's like now that we're grownups, we don't even understand that from the cradle, your first day to your last day to the grave, you need the equivalent of water, which is that you're emotionally bonded.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Because otherwise your entire organism, your entire biology is is set up to detect.

Speaker 1: Is there a good enough other on like right there beside me?

Speaker 1: And if not, my attachment, this attachment mechanism is going to flip out.

Speaker 1: And my limbic system, my nervous system is going to get really freaked out.

Speaker 1: And I'm going to have to take action to get myself out of a threat.

Speaker 1: So we know what those actions are when you're a little baby.

Speaker 1: Some babies, you know, they cry out when it looks like mom, whoever their primary caregiver is at first and then eventually dad or other primary caregivers.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: You know, there's a second person, third person, fourth person as we get older.

Speaker 1: But, you know, it starts with mom or whoever the primary person, you know, at birth.

Speaker 1: And then it extends out to other people.

Speaker 1: But if those people aren't there, you're facing an existential threat and then you're going to cry out.

Speaker 1: Anything any of you, Max, Alyssa, Raphael would add?

Speaker 2: Yeah, I would I would say that just speaking from like personal experience in my relationship, when there is some kind of, you know, conflict that's going on, it feels threatening, like on a very basic level, like I feel like I'm in danger.

Speaker 2: And I think like that, you know, fight or flight kind of kicks on.

Speaker 2: And I think that's what a lot of couples are feeling is that they're that they're really in danger because it is such a basic need to have that emotional bonding and to be connected.

Speaker 1: Absolutely.

Speaker 1: I love that, Max.

Speaker 1: So you brought that in, that that's the key, right, from from the cradle that you're really in danger when your primary person is not there.

Speaker 1: And when you're a grown up in relationship, when it looks like your primary person is not there, it really feels like you're in danger.

Speaker 1: And so it makes sense that you would take some action when we call it protests or some like reactive, like, you know, action to try and get out of danger.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: I mean, I've been thinking about the idea of attachment as its purpose is to foster dependence.

Speaker 1: And that there is when we're born into the world, you know, that we need to have a good enough other because we need to depend upon another in order to survive.

Speaker 1: And that that's that's that's a powerful statement.

Speaker 1: You know, we don't think about that, you know, you think about the kind of the basic hierarchy of needs.

Speaker 1: But when you speak about it, like water that we like really depend on it to survive, to step into somebody's hands, into their bosom, into their loving eyes, the receptivity.

Speaker 1: And how painful it is when that is not coming towards us and how, like Max said, it does evoke for a lot of people, if they even allow themselves to feel that sort of terror, you know, or anger that it's not it's not there.

Speaker 1: Yeah, no, it's great.

Speaker 1: I love that, you know, you use the word dependence, because I think that's one of the things that you bring up.

Speaker 1: We are.

Speaker 1: So here's the truth of the matter is we are dependent.

Speaker 1: All right.

Speaker 1: We're useless.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: As mammals, human beings are literally we're among the most useless mammals at birth.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: And, you know, it's like, you know, horses and cows and like giraffes, they're up and walking giraffes.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: They're all up and walking.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: They're up and walking in like a couple of hours.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: They're like they're, you know, they're still at risk.

Speaker 1: Don't get me wrong.

Speaker 1: But we have right.

Speaker 1: And, you know, they call it the four trimester.

Speaker 1: Like, well, you know, and like how long before we can literally even crawl or walk.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Like we're we are so dependent on there is this other person that's going to be there for us on one hand and then to that we're good enough for them.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: That when we're so one, if they're if they're not physically there, emotionally, they're at risk of dying.

Speaker 1: But then longer term, also, we got to make sure we're not a disappointment to them so that they don't reject us.

Speaker 1: And kick us out.

Speaker 1: Of the safety of their protection and their care and their love.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: So often say like there's two sides of wounding, like when we simplify it, there's two sides of wounding in love.

Speaker 1: And on one side, there is this need to know, are you there?

Speaker 1: And usually in a given moment in relationship or over the lifespan of a relationship, one member of a couple has more access to the pain of are you there for me?

Speaker 1: That's their primary question.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Where did you go?

Speaker 1: How come you didn't come to granny's funeral?

Speaker 1: Why are you always trying to, like, play Tetris instead of being with me?

Speaker 1: Like, whatever it is.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: And so I try to make a gender neutral game Tetris instead of saying golf.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: And then, of course, the other side of wounding in love is how come I'm never enough?

Speaker 1: Like, how come me playing Tetris for an hour, right, would actually get you to be disappointed in me?

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Like, why would me playing Tetris actually give you some signal that like, you know, that I'm not there for you?

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: So that that person was like at risk.

Speaker 1: The question is, am I enough for you now?

Speaker 1: Please tell me I'm not a disappointment now.

Speaker 1: So typically in relationship, one person has more access to the question, are you there for me?

Speaker 1: And the other person has more access to the question, am I enough?

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: And there's there are the two sides of wounding in love.

Speaker 1: So when you combine this from like we are born into water, the water is this need to be emotionally bonded or will die.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: No water for the fish.

Speaker 1: The fish will die.

Speaker 1: And then the two sides of that we need to know they're physically there and emotionally there.

Speaker 1: One half of wounding in our potential wounding in love or sensitivity.

Speaker 1: And then the other half is like, OK, they're there.

Speaker 1: Thank God.

Speaker 1: But are they disappointed in me where I'm at risk of being rejected?

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: And so typically what happens is when a couple gets together, then has grown up.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: They're on their way to the to the grave.

Speaker 1: They've left the cradle on their way to the grave, but not there yet.

Speaker 1: Thank God.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Typically, what happens is someone that has more access to the pain of being abandoned.

Speaker 1: You're not there for me gets together with someone that has more access to the pain of I'm at risk of not being enough.

Speaker 1: And and that's when, you know, they fall in love and eventually, you know, they have to like, you know, understand what's happening between them, you know, from this attachment, emotional bonding lens.

Speaker 2: One of my favorite phrases is this idea of the good enough other that that Raphael and you were talking about.

Speaker 2: And I just think it's so amazing and significant that good enough is like it's something like if a baby makes a reach or a gesture, tries to get the attention of their caregiver like 10 times.

Speaker 2: It's something like between 2.8 and 3.8 or something that is like the actual there's a there's an actual statistic in there that I'm probably mistaking, but it's pretty low.

Speaker 1: The threshold is, I think, the main takeaway for me, the response, like the response, the good enough other response, like 3.8, 2.8 or 3.8 times to the out of 10, which is the bid for connection from the baby.

Speaker 1: Yeah, wow.

Speaker 1: Amazing, right?

Speaker 2: It's amazing because I think just, you know, for parents, it's like, it's hard to be a parent.

Speaker 2: I'm not a parent, but it's hard to be a parent.

Speaker 2: And so this idea of good enough, I think, for both lovers and partners and parents and friends is super important.

Speaker 2: But there's also this idea of like a threshold that like you, you don't have to respond perfectly every time.

Speaker 2: And you can have an immense amount of security and bond, you know, even when you're missing something like six to seven reaches from from your baby, you can still have this really strong bond.

Speaker 2: But that's the line.

Speaker 2: And then below that, you really start to have a lot of distress.

Speaker 2: And I know that that study mainly comes from children and their caregiver.

Speaker 2: And I always found it super significant.

Speaker 2: And I don't know what the statistic might be between partners.

Speaker 2: But I do feel like from my experience, that the more securely I'm connected with my husband, like the more bandwidth I have for those misses.

Speaker 2: And when we're not connected, like those misses, they might be really little, but they feel super huge.

Speaker 1: Right, right.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 1: No, that's so great.

Speaker 1: I love that.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: That's this emphasis.

Speaker 1: And there's there's a reason for the language, right?

Speaker 1: That it's a good enough other, right?

Speaker 1: Perfection is the enemy of the good.

Speaker 1: We just have to be good enough, like ourself, our partner, and that we're not going to get it right all the time.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: To give to give ourself and each other grace and that we do get it wrong.

Speaker 1: Like, again, if this is primary, like this need to be emotionally bonded, attached, and we're constantly looking at are you there, even if you don't realize it?

Speaker 1: Are you still there?

Speaker 1: Am I still enough for you?

Speaker 1: You're going to miss those bids or those requests from each other quite a lot.

Speaker 1: You're not going to get that.

Speaker 1: You're not going to get it.

Speaker 1: Like if you imagine to come down right now and say, hey, are you up for going for a walk after you finish this podcast recording?

Speaker 1: And I go, no, no, I think I'm going to play Tetris for an hour.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: I clearly it's not unreasonable response.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: But I didn't obviously I didn't get what was really being asked.

Speaker 1: Will you be with me?

Speaker 1: Are you there for me?

Speaker 1: It's at stake.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: And so I missed it.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: That would have been I like what you're saying, Alyssa.

Speaker 1: Teal's not going to be happy about this.

Speaker 1: I could I could get that.

Speaker 1: I could say that another six times.

Speaker 1: And still potentially be good enough, six out of 10, or I could say it's six or seven out of 10.

Speaker 1: I like this.

Speaker 1: I could I could actually not maybe not in a row, not do it in a row.

Speaker 1: Okay.

Speaker 1: Okay.

Speaker 1: But but yeah.

Speaker 1: So, yeah, that's really that's really great to like, you know, that look, we're not going to be perfect.

Speaker 1: Your partner is not always going to be there for you.

Speaker 1: It makes sense that you're sensitive to when your bids to connection aren't being met, but they're not going to be perfect.

Speaker 1: And vice versa.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Anything, Rafael, you wanted to share or add?

Speaker 1: I mean, the only thing I was thinking about was in terms of, and maybe this just like experience of having couples therapy myself right now is that, yeah, the piece that I often can relate to is the, you know, not enough, not enough piece.

Speaker 1: But that's, for me, almost like secondary to this deeper need to have the space to feel myself.

Speaker 1: Period.

Speaker 1: Right, like as being a little bit more with more withdrawn.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Like feeling like not enough is almost still reactivity inside the cycle, which you'll probably talk about later, you know, in this podcast or future podcasts.

Speaker 1: But that sense of like, oh, I, I can't myself and I'm being required to show up to see the other.

Speaker 1: And yeah, it takes me some time to actually have the space to feel like my, you know, some of my own impulses.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Absolutely.

Speaker 1: And look, it's just like on the, just for the, again, the simplicity on the one side of wounding and love.

Speaker 1: Are you there for me?

Speaker 1: And please tell me I'm not too much for you.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: And on the other side, it's not that uncommon that whether it's like, I don't feel accepted or it's hard for me to even give myself permission to be me.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: And I need, I need a lot more space to be me.

Speaker 1: It's easy for me to feel invaded.

Speaker 1: And so I'm like, yeah, it just it just takes a lot more time for me to be able to come out.

Speaker 1: Now, look, I don't want to get too, again, too complicated about it.

Speaker 1: But like, here's the way I often relate to that is and this is the crazy and the tragedy of what happens in relationship.

Speaker 1: Like, I have that feeling a lot myself, Rafael.

Speaker 1: And here's the way I think about it.

Speaker 1: Is I love my mom so much.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Me personally, I love her so much.

Speaker 1: She was my entire world.

Speaker 1: And this is true for all human beings with their whoever that was there at the other side of their birth.

Speaker 1: They're so important to you that you literally physiologically, you give up, you literally purposely give up looking after certain needs of your organism to the mother.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: And so they're so important and them being happy becomes so important that just firstly, they're not even a separate person.

Speaker 1: They're an extension of yourself.

Speaker 1: There is no other person in the world.

Speaker 1: There's just you and this part of you that feeds you, that is looking after you, that is looking into your eyes.

Speaker 1: They must be happy for you to be OK.

Speaker 1: And if they're not OK, you're not OK.

Speaker 1: And for some of us, then we end up feeling that overwhelm when we open our eyes and look in the world.

Speaker 1: We're still looking out and going before I can.

Speaker 1: And none of this is happening consciously.

Speaker 1: I don't even have room to feel myself and know what's true for me because looking out and seeing as the other OK is so big.

Speaker 1: There's no I actually need.

Speaker 1: Wait a second.

Speaker 1: Stop.

Speaker 1: I can't even look at you.

Speaker 1: I need to be with me first and make some room for me before I can be me and see you and still feel me at the same time.

Speaker 1: So often this is the tragedy that person gets misunderstood in relationship.

Speaker 1: Why aren't you available?

Speaker 1: How come you're not showing up when actually they're not showing up because they love you so bloody much that it's really overwhelming.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: So now, by the way, when I'm when I'm saying, why aren't you showing up?

Speaker 1: That person isn't actually really just bitching and moaning.

Speaker 1: They're actually saying all that in that funny, weird voice.

Speaker 1: Why aren't you showing up?

Speaker 1: I obviously like using that voice right now, but they're using that voice because they're actually really scared inside because their person's not there.

Speaker 1: They're looking for their eyes.

Speaker 1: Imagine a baby.

Speaker 1: Like you said, they're looking for their person's eyes and they can't find them.

Speaker 1: But the person whose eyes they can't find, the reason they can't, they're not showing you their eyes right in relationship is because, wait a second, I'm going to lose myself if I meet your eyes.

Speaker 1: Right now, I don't know about you and we'll get into this, the cycle like, right.

Speaker 1: I can have a lot of empathy for both of those people and both of those people make perfect sense.

Speaker 1: And from that, then that's what we do.

Speaker 1: We get into couples counseling.

Speaker 1: Then we help those people like, hey, come here.

Speaker 1: You don't have to stop seeking the person's eyes.

Speaker 1: And hey, you don't have to stop averting your eyes.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: Because you lose yourself.

Speaker 1: And in that, them accepting being themselves, we can help them actually find and create a space that they can be exactly who they are together.

Speaker 1: And, you know, love each other.

Speaker 1: I do this gesture because that's what Teal and I do.

Speaker 1: We do this together.

Speaker 1: We rub our index fingers together and then our noses go rub like that.

Speaker 1: But you guys, whatever you do, you can do your own.

Speaker 1: You probably just hug.

Speaker 1: But we don't.

Speaker 1: We do that.

Speaker 1: Thank you.

Speaker 1: But anyway, Rafael, I don't know what's that like, just to have me piggyback on what you shared about yourself.

Speaker 1: It matches perfectly because the mother and her attention, which, again, is a huge part of how the baby takes in nourishment, can also be the place where the child increasingly may feel the need to attend to.

Speaker 1: You know, so you have this sort of you're looking at me to look back at you, you know, so that's when it kind of plays out and we're sort of traumatic developmental.

Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: But and, you know, the thing that is really interesting about that to me is that it's kind of it looks like the opposite.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: The person that I feel your needs so intensely, I want to be there for you.

Speaker 1: It's actually so intense that I go into a kind of a collapse or I don't do anything.

Speaker 1: It looks on the outside like I'm not doing anything, like I wasn't responsive when in reality, that behavior of like, listen, I got to actually sit down and watch American football for the next eight hours.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: It's actually the opposite.

Speaker 1: Like your needs are actually so important.

Speaker 1: It's really freaking overwhelming.

Speaker 1: And I need to watch American football right now.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: And again, I did a gender normative example.

Speaker 1: I'm sorry.

Speaker 2: I think that gender piece is really important because so much of this literature is very gendered.

Speaker 2: And I think that it's so, so important to talk about, or at least to mention what you said around like it's beyond gender.

Speaker 2: And it's across cultures that this has been found, like attachment being a thing.

Speaker 2: And it's like water for fish.

Speaker 2: It's, it's, it's no matter who your caregiver is or where you are in the world.

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 1: This is just a human species, like, like, it doesn't matter, you know, like, who your parents are, your primary caregiver, whoever that person, you know, you hear about, you know, stories of like a human being raised by wolves, right?

Speaker 1: Is that wolf on the other side of birds going to be your primary attachment figure, right?

Speaker 1: Like it doesn't.

Speaker 1: So I want to be very clear, we talk about the mother, the birth mother, a good enough father, it could be, you know, like a, like a gay couple, and one or both of the members of the couple are the primary attachment figure that you're initially, they're, they're literally not even a separate entity from me.

Speaker 1: It's the gender isn't, isn't actually important.

Speaker 1: Now, most of the time, there is a birth mother that is then the person that the baby connects with and forms that attachment bond, but not always right, but it's the same mechanism that's at work.

Speaker 1: Maybe a little bit more traditionally here.

Speaker 1: But I do think that the bosom and the breast and its whole, the breast is really important, you know, like the communication of attachment through the breast, I don't think that we can just throw it all out.

Speaker 1: Yeah, look, and we want you're absolutely right.

Speaker 1: And that like that, that first the baby's born and the baby put on the belly and the baby like gets to crawl up to the breast themselves and find their way to connect with the mother in the physical world.

Speaker 1: Like, look, these things are really important, right?

Speaker 1: But here's the thing.

Speaker 1: They're really important.

Speaker 1: And we're very adaptive, right?

Speaker 1: By what is it biology enabled culture prohibits.

Speaker 1: So, if it wasn't a mother birth mother when the baby will adapt and bond and emotionally bond without the breast.

Speaker 1: But let's be clear, you know, over millions of years, this is the developmental process that that bond starts and the neural pathways get get start firing with that.

Speaker 2: That's a really good point.

Speaker 2: And it's like, I also just always like to use language that's really inclusive, because I think that's important.

Speaker 1: That's just fine.

Speaker 1: So it's like, but I do think that like that biology is relevant.

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 1: And look, yeah, we want to be very, very inclusive, because we are inclusive.

Speaker 1: Everybody's welcome.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: And that's a primary part, like the beauty about looking at things from an attachment perspective that everybody always makes sense, right?

Speaker 1: Everything that people are doing makes sense, like in their whatever way they're reactive or protest not feeling loved.

Speaker 1: And there's just room for every single person in the world, right, whatever way they relate to the world.

Speaker 1: Their partner.

Speaker 1: But but so let me just say one very quick last thing that I wanted to go back to.

Speaker 1: This is very important.

Speaker 1: Raphael, you actually use the word dependence, which is so true, right, that we are just dependent on because human beings, right?

Speaker 1: We're useless, can't do anything.

Speaker 1: Keep trying to get my kids to work.

Speaker 1: They're five and eight.

Speaker 1: They're still useless.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: They bring in no money.

Speaker 1: They just eat, make fun of me.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: I just not getting any upside yet.

Speaker 1: Economically.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: But OK, so we just take a long time to actually be able to fend for ourselves.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: So we are truly dependent.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: We're an interdependent species.

Speaker 1: But but let me be clear.

Speaker 1: Here's the image of like attachment.

Speaker 1: If we go through this world where we accept our interdependence and like we actually have a moment where we feel our primary other is there for us and we're good enough for them.

Speaker 1: Through that emotional security inside that bond, we then are resourced enough to go out into the world and explore, explore, go be productive, go start that company, always want to start, go join the circus, go, you know, take over a neighboring country like I don't know what it is.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: But you find the strength to go be your own individual person by being securely bonded inside a loving relationship.

Speaker 1: We're not talking about you're dependent and you're going to be dependent forever.

Speaker 1: And it's this really bad thing.

Speaker 1: The dependence, quote unquote, interdependence with another is this wonderful foundation platform that can launch you into being all you can be as an individual.

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 1: As well, you know, while keeping the secure bond with another.

Speaker 1: So that's very important.

Speaker 1: A lot of times people in their minds, they've kind of associated like codependence, like feeling the vulnerability of, oh, my God, like I'm scared I'll lose you or like, oh, Jesus, I'm not enough for you as like, oh, I am codependent, like it's a bad thing versus wow, look how much we mean to each other.

Speaker 1: Our emotional bonding needs are really focused on each other.

Speaker 1: And that's a really good thing.

Speaker 1: And we hug each other and love each other.

Speaker 1: And that's what propels us to being our best selves in the world.

Speaker 1: That's what we want to help people do.

Speaker 1: That's all I wanted to say on that topic.

Speaker 1: I thought this was fun.

Speaker 1: It was great.

Speaker 1: Really good.

Speaker 1: Max, Alyssa, Raphael or Rebecca?

Speaker 1: Rebecca.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 2: Raphael.

Speaker 2: Rebecca.

Speaker 1: Thank you for including that.

Speaker 1: Rebecca.

Speaker 1: Thank you.

Speaker 1: And yeah, we'll keep going.

Speaker 1: And we'll hear from us soon.

Speaker 1: We'll call you.

Speaker 1: We will return with another episode.

Speaker 1: And you will hear from Thiel and me as well, an episode coming back up.

Speaker 1: And thank you.

Speaker 1: Catch you next time.

Speaker 1: Bye.

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